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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Stainless tank bottom with lots of "cracks"
- - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 04-26-2013 02:22
Had a job to do today repairing a crack in the bottom of a stainless water heater tank at a small brewery. The guys got there and couldn't really find a crack. So they broke out the dye penetrant kit and it looked like a
million tiny cracks. This "water heater" is from a off shore supplier who has no info on this thing. They claim it loses 100 gallons of water a day. Let me know what you think about the pic.
Attachment: image2.jpeg (957k)
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 04-26-2013 02:33
What pic?
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 04-26-2013 02:34
Polar bear in a snow storm?
Without seeing it the thousands of tiny cracks sounds like sulfide  stress corrosion cracking.
http://www.swcc.gov.sa/files/assets/Research/Technical%20Papers/Corrosion/STUDIES%20ON%20THE%20STRESS%20CORROSION%20CRACKING.....9.pdf
You aint fixin this problem with a welding rod.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 04-26-2013 16:24 Edited 04-26-2013 16:26
That water tank should be the first step in the brewing process. They are not likely conditioning the water prior to filling the tank.
I would lay odds the public water supply is fluoridated.  Hexafluorosilicic acid (H2SiF6) and its salt sodium hexafluorosilicate (Na2SiF6) are whats typically used for that.
That doesn't play well in the sand box with stainless steel at elevated temperatures, especially the latter salts.

My money says you can repair that tank until hell freezes over, but until you either line it or treat the incoming water, it's going to bust again.

For the record, that's not the first time I've seen something like that in the same application.
Parent - By 2006strat (***) Date 05-01-2013 01:17
Couple sticks of JB weld should do the trick!  Mix it real good, slapper on there.  Done.  That's right jack!
Parent - By Len Andersen (***) Date 05-01-2013 12:25
Ladies and Gentlemen,
    I am a chemical engineer and have worked with stainless steel vessels. I do not recall such problems. The way I would pursue the matter as the brewery's engineer is calling the one that sold to me and asking for answers. As your engineer a sample the metal spark tested would say what it is. The client is probably interested. From that point it might be a buy a new one , you make them a new one with right thickness and material or the bottom replacement. I hope this is helpful
                      Sincerely
Len Andersen weld@spemail.org
               914-536-7101   / 212-839-6599     8-4 New York Time , 4042 FAX , Co-worker 6381 / 914-237-7689 (H)
POB 1529 / NYC 10116-1529 ( $1160 per year Caller Box GPO NYC / Most Secure Service At Largest Post Office )
                       www.lenandersen.com
- - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 04-26-2013 02:49
Sorry for the delay, couldn't post pic from phone. This pic is from one 4"x4" area. They did this in 4 areas and all had the small cracks. My guy said welding it was like gouging out a repair and you see the cracks grow as it heats up.
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 04-26-2013 03:26
Hi Eric

I am assuming this is a 304 or 316 stainless material, but obviously in the food industry they do often use ferritic stainless steels. If you could find out at what temperature this thing operates, and what "water" is in it, then I could hazard a better guess, but certainly looks like Chloride Stress Corrosion Cracking. Any temperature above 60C, with some chlorides present, and SCC is an almost certainty with austenitic stainless steels. Could possibly also be that the stainless is sensitised, if the plate manufacturer got their manufacturing process messed up, especially if it is not an L grade of stainless. The pic seems to indicate the cracking is in the plate base metal, but what did the areas around the welds look like? Same cracking, or even worse? SCC is normally much worse around the welds, but if the plate is cold finished, then the plate itself will also have very high levels of residual stress, so could easily also suffer from SCC.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 04-26-2013 04:34
It is supposed to be 316, and we have been told the water(filtered ) is heated to 190f. The whole thing has problems, the heating portion is a jacket about half way up the tank that is 4"~ thick. I think it's a burner under the bottom of the tank like a giant tea kettle. But we have no specs or drawings of any kind. They call it a water heater, it seems to be more of a very thin boiler to me.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 04-26-2013 10:59
Just a stupid question but would replacing the entire bottom be a better alternative? I guess it's a matter of could it be replaced though? Or maybe skin a new bottom in over the cracked one? Just talking out loud.....:lol:
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 04-26-2013 11:04
Hey Eric,
How old is the tank? I think it's been under attack for many years by chloride.  Can you ask them if and what they use to clean out the tank?
Anyway, I think it may be time to retire the tank. 
Tyrone
Parent - - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 04-26-2013 12:35
It may be 2 years old at the most. Probably more like 1 or less. All they heat in it is filtered tap water. There was a ton of scale in it for what's supposed to be nice clean water. They use a caustic solution to clean all their equipment.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-26-2013 14:01
There will always be scale over even a short period of time as there will always be at least a small amount of minerals and other contaminants even if it were run through a reverse osmosis system first, which, it doesn't sound like it is. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 04-26-2013 14:03
Eric,
could be a number of issues here. Need to know some more info though. Such as , do you know what kind of water was used? Without knowing more info it’s hard to say. Two possible causes are Chloride corrosion which can form pits that can propagate into cracks. You would have to know the Chloride concentration of the water. Typically it needs to be less than 50 ppm. MIC (microbiologically influenced corrosion) is another cause of corrosion, although from what you are describing MIC might not be relevent. Again water conditions are directly responsible for this issue. Brackish or stagnant conditions can start the corrosion cell. The final condition of the stainless, such as anything that would impede passivity needs to be concidered.

Jim
Parent - By ozniek (***) Date 04-27-2013 12:36
Hi Eric

Obviously we are guessing here, not knowing all the conditions, but it could be a helpful exercise in any case. There are a couple of things you said, that could also add some more to this. You talk about a jacket doing the heating, but then you talk about a burner under the bottom of the tank. If there is definitely a burner under the tank, and there is any possibility that this thing can run dry, then it is conceivable that the bottom of the tank could see temperatures high enough to cause sensitisation, especially if it is not an L grade, but if this has happened, then the production people will know about it. (It will be glowing red!) If it has not run dry, then it should not be sensitised from production, but could be from original material manufacture, but this is unlikely. (Although not impossible.)

Most likely for me is still SCC, although it could be caused by either Chloride, or Fluoride. (As stated by somebody else. - As long as the water has high levels of Fluoride.)

Another possibility is caustic cracking. (You noted that they clean it with a caustic solution.) But for caustic cracking, you will need rather high temperatures, so if they do something silly like heat it with the burner while cleaning, then they will probably have the right conditions for caustic cracking of the stainless.

At any rate, as soon as you have SCC / Caustic cracking, then repairing by welding will be essentially impractical.

Regard
Niekie
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-26-2013 14:36
I put my money on stress corrosion.

The tank is more than likely insulated with a PVC type insulation, either applied as foam or blankets. It is most likely wet most of the time if not all the time. The water leaches the chlorides, so that is more likely the source of chlorides.

If you were to perform a penetrant test from the outside of the tank, the evidence of chloride induced stress corrosion would be more pronounced. In this case the dished heads are cold worked and the shell is cold rolled. The outer surfaces of each is in tension and there is virtually no chance the tank was stress relieved after fabrication, hence the residual stresses are on the same order of magnitude as if the areas were welded.

Yup, stress corrosion because of the presence of chlorides and wetted surfaces is where my money is. 

Scrap the tank. Fabricate a new tank using low carbon grades of austenitic stainless steel or stabilized grades of stainless (321 for example), and use fiberglass insulation instead of PVC foam.

I have encountered similar situations where the leakage was noticed in as little as three months on 3/16 inch thick stainless material. 

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 04-26-2013 16:42
Al,
I would agree if we knew some more info. SCC takes three factor’s. Susceptible material, (Austenitic SS), exposure to a corrosive environment, (Chlorides) and tensile stresses above a threshold ( not so sure about this one in this application) If you take one of these factors out then you defang the SCC monster, sort of speak.

Jim
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-26-2013 16:46
That's why I hedged my comments. We don't know all the facts. At best we can only apply the SWAG method to derive a solution to the problem this welder encountered.

Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-26-2013 17:24
I think there is enough 'SWAGGERING' in here already, we don't need any more.  LOL  :lol:

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 04-26-2013 20:42
???????????
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-27-2013 02:43
Nevermind Tommy,  Just one of those fleeting moment thoughts that came to me with Al's comment about 'SWAG'.

I'll get over it.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 04-27-2013 12:38
Hi Al

Agree with most of your points, but changing to an L grade, or a stabilised grade will make very little difference if the problem is SCC. Will help for sensitisation though, if that is playing a part in the corrosion.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-27-2013 13:35 Edited 04-27-2013 13:53
I agree Niekie that the switch to L grade or stabilized grades of austenitic stainless would have little influence on the body of the vessel, but in the HAZ it would make a difference. As you noted, sensitization in the HAZ can be the culprit, but that is a localized condition. The problems with the dished head and shell are both have residual stresses of the same magnitude as the yield strength of the base metal, i.e., both were most likely cold formed without the benefit of a subsequent stress relief heat treatment.

The best approach, if practical, is to stress relieve the vessel after all the fabrication is completed. One of my clients was experiencing a similar problem as described in this post. The solution was a full stress relief after all fabrication was completed. It was not inexpensive, but it worked. They have not had a failure since PWHT has been instituted. They also switched to a different insulation material to rid themselves of the chloride problem.

Then again, we still do not know the entire story or all the facts. I believe we have provided some conjecture, some "food for thought," and made it known that there is the need to gather more information before a workable solution can be derived.  It is essential that the base metal alloy be determined, method of manufacture be known (PWHT?), the operating conditions as well as past history, cleaning methods, flushing after cleaning, chemistry of the water, and whether the vessel is insulated with any material that contains chlorides that could leach out. It is a real "who done it" for someone that specializes in that type of forensics and metallurgy. The bottom line is the brewery is going to be forced to buy a new vessel. I suspect similar cracks will be found through out the bottom dished head and possibly the lower portions of the shell as well if there is an external source of chlorides. If the insulation (if that is the source of chlorides) is the "bad guy," the cracking will be more pronounced on the tank's exterior it is continually wet.  Now, this is what I call fun!

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 04-28-2013 14:50
I inspected an 'offshore' stainless tank for a wet decal application business. The tank was new and had all kinds of cracking problems. It was the material. Thin and not L series.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Stainless tank bottom with lots of "cracks"

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