6011 Vertical Corner Headaches!

Date 07-10-2012 14:19

First of all, "for life", is not the best answer to have for technique. Part of what we do for a living is the constant switching up of technique, for all kinds of unusual and out of position welding. Sometimes you might have to whip, sometimes you might have to gouge and fill. This switching up of technique allows you to run a constant heat with the same piece of work, so you can get the job done in a timely manner. It's what makes what you do look easy to someone paying attention. It's what puts you in another catagory of welder.

That's just my two cents. Keep trying different things, like you said, and then you will know what works best for each process. I encourage anyone to do that in life also......

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-12-2012 02:15

I can't agree more Sourdough!

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-10-2012 14:21 Edited 07-10-2012 14:23

Appears you already know what needs to be done and just need to get in there and practice.

I do have one observation...your amperage seems a little low for 1/8" electrodes. Sometimes LESS is NOT COOLER. Because you are depositing filler at a slower rate due to the low amperage you are progressing slower which can mean more heat build up. The lower amperage will occassionally cause electrodes to melt off in an inconsistent manner. Thus, when you are about halfway up the vertical you are carrying more heat than desired and the electrode is burning off sideways.

Higher amperage will allow you to move more quickly along your line of progression actually lowering the heat input into the parts. I would try around 100 amps. The amps rates are based upon correct calibration of your machine. But even if the readings are not accurate, 65-75 seems pretty low.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-10-2012 14:22

Welderbrent is absolutely right.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-10-2012 14:25

I wouldn't go so far as to say "absolutely right" but it APPEARS that way to me for having nothing but a verbal explanation to go by.

Thanks for the second to my opinion though.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By LHoage

Date 07-10-2012 14:40

100 Amps O.o; That is scary stuff. I'll give it a try when I get back into the shop. Never did anything over 80 Amps with this rod before, unless it was for tacking, then I use 90. Thanks for the input! I'll let ya know how it goes :D

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-10-2012 18:13

Normal operating range for 1/8 electrodes is about 90-130 amps. That depends upon: 1) the manufacturer, 2) the welding position, 3) the accuaracy of the welding machine's amperage readout/adjustment dial, 4) the thickness of the parts being welded, 5) the fit up, 6) the electrode classification (7018, 6010, 6011, 7024, etc), and 7) operator preference- within manufacturer's recommendations and WPS requirements.

I would think it would be very difficult to strike an arc and keep it burning properly at the amperage range you mentioned. Try it higher. Most of us with more experience don't depend upon the amperage reading on the machine, you can set the machine by the way the electrode runs and when the inspector puts his test meter on the line it will be right there.

Have a Great day, Brent

By JLWelding (***)

Date 07-16-2012 05:04

I learned something about 6011's long time ago, they are not the same, brand, coating and all that. We were welding a bunch of I beams for a friend years ago and I was cussing the rusty crap while welding 5p when he said here try these rods. They are 6011 and they seem to weld colder I had to turn up machine, there Fleetweld 180's which is a 6011. But they run pretty good on rusty iron.
Anyway that's all I had, cant add to what's been said.

By LHoage

Date 07-10-2012 14:41

I don't believe I am allowed to do this technique. I will ask though. I can definitely see the benefit of this.

By aevald

Date 07-12-2012 21:46

Hello LHoage, I have sat back on this post for a while and taken in much of what others have suggested and commented on. IMHO, E6010 rod is most commonly used in industrial settings for vaious applications where it's distinct characteristics are desired or possibly required. It is a DC rod and thus is not going to be used by the average home welder or hobbyist for his/her purposes unless they have DC capability on their machines.

E6011 rod possesses many of the same characteristics of the E6010 electrode with the main difference being it's ability to be operated on AC current or DC current. The general mechanicals and other characteristics of the rod are pretty much shared with E6010. Back to E6010 electrodes for a moment, there are too many different manufacturers of this AWS designated electrode to likely gain an accurate count of the exact number. Depending upon who you are speaking with at a particular moment you will receive many different and varied opinions on which one is best, has the best operator appeal, performs the best, and for what reason. The same could be said for types and manufactures of E6011 electrodes. If you take a look at Lincoln, Hobart, and other major electrode manufacturers you will probably find that each one of them makes 3,4, or more different types of E6010 electrodes. With slight changes in flux formulation a rod's characteristics might be altered just slightly to fit a particular application just a bit better than another type. Yet, they all posess the E6010 designations.

I know a lot of folks that prefer using E6011 electrodes in cases where a 60 series cellulosic electrode is designated. They feel that the slag comes off easier, there are less instances of arc-blow(whether being run on AC or DC current) and many other reasons and explanations for those feelings and beliefs. I am sure that there are others who swear differently. Personal opinion...... fortunately we are still allowed to have it.

Concerning the challenge that your instructor has charged you with. Most in industries where codes govern would likely not be doing the sort of challenge that you have been given. There are many reasons for this and many of the responses have covered this reasoning. Here again, you are in school, you are allowed to experiment and hopefully encouraged to do so. School is a place to learn, make mistakes where the penalties don't necessarily carry monetary responsibilities, be given explanations for do's and don'ts and why. Be challenged, the one you are working on now is certainly one of those. Your mention of having issues with heat control, electrode manipulation, arc length, rod angle, and any other number of other variables is certainly educating you on the finer points of welding with a cellulosic electrode.

The students in our program mainly work with E6010, E7018, E7024, E7014, E6013, E6011, and a number of other stainless, cast iron, hard facing, and additional specialty electrodes. The emphasis is on E6010 and E7018 as there are large families of electrodes of these two types that run similarly, thus being able to run these proficiently, a person can generally figure the others out reasonably quickly. The other electrodes that I have mentioned here are provided for a taste of how they might run slightly differently from the main ones.

What I am driving at here is to consider applying yourself as fully as possible and learning as much as you can while you are in school. School is the tip of the iceburg, but it's a good starting point. When you go out into industry and get a job is when the real learning will begin taking place. Remain teachable and strive to learn something new every day. Good luck on your present and your future. Best regards, Allan

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-10-2012 21:20

That should not be an issue for conformance to a WPS. I don't think that is his concern... he doesn't think his 'instructor' will allow it. At least that is my understanding. And, personally, I would like to see him be able to do it without using the backstepping. If it is needed on a job, fine. But in his practice for the procedure he should be able to complete that successfully.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 07-11-2012 03:19

Why has nobody mentioned the 3/8" weld size with a single pass requirement? How can this be compliant vertically? Technique isn't the problem in my opinion

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-11-2012 03:44

Lawrence,

If I am interpreting Table 3.7 correctly then SMAW Vertical is allowed a 1/2" fillet weld in a single pass.

But, as of yet, we don't know what code he is welding to and rather or not there is a WPS to be followed. If this is only about practicing and developing technique then all the other questions don't really matter anyway. And he is using 6011 not 7018 which means the code is totally out the window here anyway.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-11-2012 14:02

Yeah, this procedure has been cooked up by someone who decided that it's a good one. Personally, I don't ever need to run 5p uphill, and I don't ever have 6011 in my arsenal of rods. On the procedure we're talking about here, it would be just as quick to run an LH pass all the way out.

That's just how I would do it. I remember back in the day, being intimidated by uphill and overhead LH passes. I remember struggling with my heat so much in class, that I would storm out of the building at lunch and not come back that day. 7018 was not my friend. Funny how things change. I use low hydrogen rod for almost everything, except many of the pipeline procedures we deal with in the patch.

Maybe we should be talking someone into using an LH rod on this one....

By LHoage

Date 07-11-2012 22:08

I had to take today off today partially because of that same issue. I went into the shop for the night class instead of day due to errands I had to run yesterday. By the time I was forced to quit, My entire body was soaked, my leather was slippery like a slip n slide water park, my hands were pruning, I was super hot, and had been shocked about 8 times.... Today is definitely a day off for me to recoup on this procedure.

I'm very close to getting it exactly how my instructor wants it. He's pretty tough to work for, but I'm confident I can nail it down given one more day. Since I took today off, I'm gonna go for 10 hours tomorrow instead of 5. But I'm gonna bring two changes of clothes :D

I still tend to favor the right side more, but this is less of an issue after finding better positioning. At least this time I can see my puddle better and burn an entire rod without having to reposition. I just need to focus on keeping things tighter and I'll have this damn thing.

Thanks for the advice and all! You guys are super helpful!

By strother (***)

Date 07-12-2012 01:02

I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ I'm just curious. Has your instructor explained why you need to learn how to run 6011. I've been welding for a living for 20 years and that last time I saw a 6011 was in when I was in high school ag shop. About the only time you will see 6011 in the real world is around feed mills or laying in the floor beside a farmers buzz box.

By LHoage

Date 07-12-2012 01:49

The explanation that I've been given, and my own observations in previous employment is that it is a trash rod. I'm guessing that it is most effective for root welds, penetrating rusty metals, vertical downhilling thin metal, deep tack welds or "throw this **** together" welding.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-12-2012 02:14

We had an ol' teacher that had us run 6011's instead of 6010's. His reasoning was that the 6011's were cheaper and basically ran the same or nearly the same as a 6010. So to save a buck more or less. I agree though Randy, I've seen 6011's at the Tractor supply!!

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 07-12-2012 05:30

That is exactly whey they are making him run it.....cheap junk rod. Hell they give 6011 away at the welding supply on the right day.

Dont sweat it LHoage.....it runs similiar uphill to 6010...not the same but similar concept. So you are learning something somewhat rare....at least to me..... but valuable...60 series rod uphill. You learn that and you will love it downhand.....more then that when you get your hands on a 6010 you will make good use of it.

Sourdough you are talking about what nearly killed me...learning lohy uphill and then overhead. I can tig, mig, stick and pulse gmaw even a little bit of CO2 laser welding with CNC (figure out my own setups)......lohy uphand kicked my butt... until somebody took the time to really watch me and coach me,,,,suddenly it became second nature and easy peasy. I wont let my boys touch the mig or the tig except a little playing....I told them flat out...TILL you can run these all these rods off this stinger up/down/sideways and inside out....you don't get to do the easy stuff. Course that is killing me for help in the shop but I reckon I am doing them a favor by pushing the stick first.

Keep at it LHoage.....practice improves everything....welders practice every time they do their job. Because you are seeking help means your trying.....you will always be trying to be better if you stick with it.

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-12-2012 05:54

Tommy, my dad bought a mig when they were not really that affordable.....I think it was mid 80's. I couldn't touch that thing until I learned how to stick weld.

I figure that's the same thing I will say to my boy when he's old enough to start tinkering in the shop......

And I'll shoot you some pics of that 40 tomorrow.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 07-12-2012 11:47

>I've seen 6011's at the Tractor supply!!

Tractor Supply also has the 1109's in stock.

By 357max

Date 07-12-2012 17:02

1109's are cellulose with potassium versus 10's which have sodium in the flux coating. The potassium allows the use of lower open circuit voltage ie AC keeping the arc on through zero. Lincoln has the 1109s as a Fleetweld 180 (possibly the tractor supply brand/type) heavy flux and designed for the old transformer welders with low ocv. the Fleetweld 35 needs a little higher ocv and has less flux. The Fleetweld 35 LS (LS ~ low slag) is darn near the 6010. Hobart & Esab also have a couple of varieties of 1109s with similar operating characteristics as Lincoln.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 07-12-2012 17:15

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-12-2012 20:52

Those 1109's must be right next to the 6018's a "certified weldor" told me about. He had a ring that said he was certified so it must be true right? I'm just having a hard time finding a 6018 though.

By 357max

Date 07-12-2012 21:35

Back in the early '70s there was classification for both 60XX and 70XX electrodes of the same classsification with only tensile strength difference. The 60s often met the minimum for the 70 ksi tensile strength. The duplication of classification was redundant & AWS deleted alot of the 60XX classifications.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-12-2012 21:50

This guy wasn't old enough to remember those, younger than me. Interesting to know though, they actually had a 6018, back when they were chiseling out wheels in the quarry! :lol:

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-13-2012 04:17

" I'm a certified welder" is my favorite thing to hear when I'm hiring a welder for a single hand. As soon as they say that, they are eliminated from the running....

By chickweldor (*)

Date 07-13-2012 14:11

whats wrong with being certified?

By LHoage

Date 07-13-2012 14:26

What's wrong with it is that you're only certified by that company for that specific process. I was also informed by my instructor and a few websites that they do not carry over to another company unless they are doing the exact same thing you were qualified on, and even then, you most likely have to retake that company's certification process.

I screwed up not knowing that until after I recently turned in an application. But I have also been told that AWS certifications are nationwide, so there's a plus to doing that, even if it is expensive.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-14-2012 21:22

Not exactly correct Lucas. Besides, most companies aren't going to give you a copy of your certs anyway. They paid for them. The procedures are their's. It is for their work.

How and/or if they will transfer depends upon many factors. And even if you do take the time and money to test under an AWS Accedited Test Facility and get on the AWS national roster a company can still re-test you.

It all comes down to what the company will accept for employment qualifications. Then, it depends on the customer and/or their engineer and what they will accept for compliance to their contract documents.

I love when people have already passed qualification tests. It tells me they have a reasonable set of basic skills and have proven themselves in at least one area.

But, as others have said, I get apprehensive when someone starts a conversation with bragging on being a "Certified Welder". Most don't even know what it means. They can't even tell you what code they were tested to. Can't tell you if there even was a WPS. Can't tell you what their "Certification" qualifies them to do. Etc, etc. Many think that wire is wire. They got "Certified" through the school they went to in GMAW short circuit transfer and think they are certified for any kind of wire in any position to any code.

Our lives as welders revolve around our ability to pass a welding test. I'll take a dozen of them a day if I need to. They aren't anything to be afraid of. Pass or fail you can learn something everytime you test. I like to think I learn something everytime I strike an arc.

How those of us who are employer's view a person's response or the way he starts a conversation with his bragging rights demonstrates his attitude and character. It tells me a lot about him right then and there. I can let him talk, and maybe work in a couple of questions between his bragging, and know rather I want to hire him or not.

A dead give away is when they tell you they are a certified "arc welder".

Have a Great Day, Brent

By rcwelding (***)

Date 07-14-2012 21:50

I had a guy a while back tell me he was certified in 37 states and had been welding for 30yrs.. He was going through a hard spot and could I help him find some work..

I told him I didn't know too many people and I didn't have too many contacts but I would do whatever I could to help him...

I told him if he could pass a 12 on 12 branch and an Ark bell hole he could probably get a job down in South Texas pretty quick.. He told me NOOOOO Problem do you have any friends down there with numbers..

I told him I knew a couple of guys but I wanted to see him weld.. He said come on over.. I had a couple of pipe coupons on my truck and I went over to his house..

I gave him the coupons and said lets see what you got..!! He just gave me a blank stare... Come to find out he was certified in 37 states to weld flux core on a role out wheel and that was it...!!!!

That was 4 months ago and he bought himself a nice 300D.. He is coming along pretty good but he has a long way to go..!!

After about an hour of welding 5p beads and Lo Hy fill and cap that first day he looks at me and said I need to get everything I know about welding and throw it out the window don't I... I said yes sir everything except watching the puddle..!!

He is a good guy but its crazy what people think they can do when they are ( certified )..!!

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-16-2012 05:19 Edited 07-16-2012 05:25

Well said, Brent and RC. Our trade is one of the most misunderstood.

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-13-2012 14:43

Okay, so there you are at the walmart with a full dresser welding rig. The guy that parks next to you hops out of his car and says "nice rig, you know I'm a certified welder". You get your gear from Wallyworld, and head off to the pumps to fill up. The 8 dollar an hour clerk says to you, "I'm a certified welder". You get to the steel yard and the guy that loads your trailer with bar grating exclaims that he, in fact, is a certified welder, but is only working in the yard because it's a steady paycheck.

So, by the time you get out to the location and start putting material on jackstands, trying to get it out of your head just exactly how convaluded the general population's thinking is on what we do for a living.......the pumper comes along and tells you how to weld.......because he is a certified welder.

That's why when the first thing out of someone's mouth is "I'm a certified welder", I tend to think that they are not an experienced welder. Rather, I think that they are telling me that they are certified to obscure the fact that they have absolutely no practical welding experience beyond that which they just learned in school, or on their first shop job.

The same holds true for a person that wants to slip in the fact that they are Christian while shaking hands the first time I meet them.When that happens, I immediately require half down before I start the job............true story.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-14-2012 15:43

Sourdough, I am laughing and shaking my head in agreement to every word!!!

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-14-2012 23:20

By strother (***)

Date 07-12-2012 22:36

I was thinking about my first response to your post and decided rather nit picking about what type of rod you are using I should try to give some advice that maybe useful. After reading some of the other comments I remember how much I struggled learning to weld up hill. Heat build up was my biggest problem. just like you I would start out good and a little over half way up the wheels would fall off. My instructor gave me some advice that I still use when ever I am welding in a tricking position. "You have got to use the rod to control the heat" That sounds simple but takes A LOT of practice . You have got to see the heat before it gets out of control and start making adjust. It may be as simple slightly adjusting your travel speed or you may have to completely change technique mid stream . With up hill more than any other position you have to " read the puddle". I hope this helps. Good Luck!

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 07-13-2012 00:40

good point strother!!!....more complaining about what he is being taught then helping him achieve the task at hand.

Shawn is pretty good at running 60xx uphill so I will call him out for technique. :evil:

LHoage...if you can take a picture of the weld when it starts going bad ...before you go to far it might help some of these guys as far as advice....make sure it is after you have brushed it clean. As that heat builds just like already said you may have to change your pattern, almost certainly your travel speed. That 6011 will eat your base metal as it gets hotter..it will not allow you to just pause at the edges and let it fill...it will overheat. What helps me with that is fanning or whipping it a little bit...I will step off and up into the root and back down to the toe as it is getting hotter....it is a much different motion then the first few inches of weld for me. I also may be holding a slightly longer arc when I do this. I have seen guys put down very nice welds at very different amperage's then what I like whether colder or hotter....how they do it, thier technique makes the difference. Don't lock yourself up in a box...it can only work this way or that...you have to find something that works for you. Two welders can use very different methods and achieve the same end result. Once you develop a technique (your technique) that lets you keep going it is just a matter of finding your rate of travel and you can continue that for the whole length of the weld after the first 3-4 inches....you will have your deposit rate and the base temp in balance. No matter what rod you are using, uphill will require adjustments as you carry it along. Keep at it and you will find a way that is comfortable and works for you.

By Stringer (***)

Date 07-13-2012 03:12

We used 3/16 6011 as our stock in trade at the shipyards in Houston in the late 70's because it would cut and fill better with rusty and wet joints.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-14-2012 15:49

Hahaha!! I'm nobody! I'm so dumb I can't run a tub of water!

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 07-13-2012 15:17

Brent,

Thanks for the correction!

The table 3.7 is clear.

That's what happens sometimes when you shoot from the hip.

I should know better.

By rcwelding (***)

Date 07-13-2012 17:07

When things get that frustrating you will do more harm then good banging your head against the well then just walking away for a few hours or even a couple of days..!!!

When things get that bad... Walk away and chill out..!!! I promise you it will get worse if you keep fighting while you are frustrated..!!!

By LHoage

Date 07-13-2012 17:16

A buddy at school was telling me one of his practice techniques he does at home to "stay in shape" or get ready for a process. He outlines a blueprint of the piece he is about to weld and uses a pencil to practice his technique along the paper. I was gonna try that this weekend.

If worst comes to worst, I'll just skip the entire 6011 portion and move onto the 7018 for a while and go back to 6011. Need to build my confidence back up now :P

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-14-2012 05:39 Edited 07-14-2012 05:41

Well what I'm about to say to you may sound corny to some of the guys that know me here, but...... I can tell that what you probably do is get all tensed up and try to stay rigid and weld like a robot. And the more it doesn't work out, the more pist you get, and the worse the whole endeavor gets.

So: Use what God put between your ears, whatever you want to call it; Zen, meditation, mind yoga, whatever............but get in a zone with your body and mind, and tell yourself that you are just doing an excersize or something. Your body parts all have to work with one another to get a good flow, and all that has to coordinate with the way your mind is thinking. You don't think about your technique when you are singing in traffic, or sitting on the throne. You don't take it serious, and it makes you feel good at the time. You are relaxed. Concentrate on the whole of you getting along with the many parts that make you. Get loose. And at the end of the day, forget about it.

Before long, you will be planning your weekend while you're absently staring at a pretty blue light under your hood. You will also go through withdrawals when you are away from the pretty blue light for the weekend.....true story.

By 60redfacer (**)

Date 07-14-2012 14:59

LHoage when running that much weld try a "U" pattern, at the bottom get your puddle started the go to the left side then to the right . Also, 3/8" of weld in one pass is alot with 1/8" 6011, can you run a skinny stringer bead then come back and cap it. Hope my 2 cents helps

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-14-2012 15:46

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that, 3/8" cap, uphill with the ugly rod.

By rcwelding (***)

Date 07-14-2012 22:21

Old Sourdough hit the nail on the head with that one...

As funny as it sounds you may want to run some 6011 flat for a while and watch the puddle close from every angle that you can..

If you want a nice flat puddle its going to have to lay down somewhat the same no matter what position you are in..

Maybe set your coupon on a 45 degree angle and go up with it.. Slowly stand each coupon up a little more till you reach 90 degrees then eventually bring that coupon all the way over till you are welding underneath it and welding overhead..

When you are fighting a particular position you start seeing all kinds of weird things... Let your eyes see a nice clean puddle flat for a while and remind yourself what it supposed to look like.. When yours eyes see it they will try to help you when you are out of position instead of freaking out on you..