CWI Practical Test training

Date 10-07-2008 15:12

FlawTech visual examination flawed specimen kit, for actual weld samples. Learn how to adjust and read a micrometer. Know how to convert to and from the metric system.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-07-2008 18:22

I think the big question to ask your people is; "What part of the practical gave them difficulty?

Was it in interpreting "Part B"

Or

Was it in the actual measurements and defining the various discontinuities and defects.

When you get a feel for that you can focus your training and materials to strengthen them.

Part B is pretty similar to D1.1, and I feel purposly designed to catch folks who have memorized sections of the code..... It has criteria and footnotes that are slightly different and if you go by D1 rote... your done for.

By 803056

Date 10-08-2008 04:52 Edited 10-08-2008 04:55

I agree with Lawrence.

Part of the philosophy of the examination is to force the candidate to read the specification and use the material presented to answer questions. All too often the candidate fails to "forget" what he normally does when answering the test questions.

I call it carrying excess baggage and I see it on different jobs were the inspector develops the idea that it is permissible to apply what was done on the last job to the current job, code or specifications be damned.

While the specification used for the Part B examination may look like AWS D1.1, it also looks similar to ASME Section IX. Those individuals that get caught in the "trap" of saying "this is just like D1.1" or "this is just like Section IX" is going tp fail the test. This test provides no advantage to the candidate that is well versed in either D1.1 or ASME section IX.

This approach is justified and good practice because many CWIs work with multiple welding standards. In some case they use multiple welding standards in any one day. They need to be able to apply the specific standard to the job at hand and in many cases forget what was applicable to the previous day's work.

The other thing that is overlooked is reading the footnotes in the tables when answering questions. I always highlight the little footnotes to make sure I don't miss them when using the code. Even today, I mark up every new edition of the code when there are little itty bitty footnotes sprinkled through the tables. They are easily overlooked when rushing to find an answer to a question.

As Lawrence also mentioned, some candidates are weak in the proper use of precision measuring instruments such as micrometers and dial calipers. If you have had experience using those tools, there should be no difficulty using the instruments provided for the test. If, however, the candidate has no experience or limited experience using these tools, they would be well served to practice using them before the examination.

Best regards - Al

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 10-08-2008 12:06

There could be another reason. They are really not inspectors. Oh - They are smart enough to pass the part "A" and "C" exam, (Book Smart) but they really don't inspect welds for a living, so they haven't got the experience and speed necessary to pass the HOT. Sounds like they may be "Engineers".

By 803056

Date 10-08-2008 12:23

Say it isn't so Joe! :0

Best regards - Al

By Bill M

Date 10-08-2008 14:05

Well, the gentlemen I mentioned in my post are long time weld shop inspectors here, along with being NDT techs.
We make VERY heavy plate weldments, and the guys do not work with 0-1" micrometers or 6" calipers much. As Lawrence suggested, I am investigating what parts they did poorly in, and will coordinate add'l training accordingly.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 10-08-2008 15:37

Bill M

In that case I withdraw my inference

Joe Kane

By Bill M

Date 10-09-2008 16:16

Thanks Joe,
Your comments are not without merit. Our inspectors are very long time guys...but have worked in a very narrow window of the "Weld Inspection World" here. Our products do not vary much, they may be experts in heavy fab, but are not exposed to much else. They do not see much GTAW, GMAW, or even SMAW really. They do not know a spot weld from a ... They know our complex weld toe grinding requirements, but have never used a depth micrometer. I pounded the code book work on them, and they passed those sections. I feel like I let them down a bit. I had them take the training seminar the week before the test, but not sure how much they cover for the practical exam. Thats why i am looking for advice to help get them up to speed on that section of the test.

By vagabond (***)

Date 10-09-2008 16:53

A whole room full of engineers and nobody knows anything about trains!!!! I thought I was the only one who had such prejudice(s) towards engineers LOL.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 10-09-2008 19:52

Vagabond

You got me wrong about Engineers. I say that I am the only welder in the world with any respect for Engineers. I am the only welder that doesn't say F_____g or A__HOLe when I say the word engineer. I think they are the smartest people in the world. I enjoy associating with them.

However, As smart as they are, "It fits according to CATIA" just amazes me. Many do not have the same minds eye view of welds as real time inspectors do. IN fact I know several engineers that will go sit through the whole week of AWS Bootcamp for their nine year re-certification, rather than sit for a two hour hand-on-test. They are that afraid of the HOT!!!

By vagabond (***)

Date 10-09-2008 21:22

I'm probably too hard on em. I just wish some of them had more common sense, but it applies to any group not just engineers. 1/3 are pretty good, 1/3 are good enough and the other 1/3 well they graduated and somebody hired them same with welders, inspectors whoever. I saw a Dilbert comic strip awhile back and it has Dilbert as a child and his mom had him at the doctors. She tells the doctor he takes apart the radio, tv, vcr etc. and can't put any of them back together. Ah yes the doctors says he has what we call the knack!!! Oh goodness doctor, will he ever be able to lead a normal life?? She asks. No, no he won't. . . . . . he'll be an engineer.

By doyenofcastle (**)

Date 02-10-2009 16:10

can you give me more information about part B ,in my mind we use PAI 1104 or D1.1 for hand on practical part , I prepare to take CWI exam but I will take exam only so if you can give me general idea it will be helpful and if you have material can send by email will be good.
with kindest regards

By 803056

Date 02-11-2009 16:00

The examinations are detail oriented. The ability to read what a passage says versus what you think it should say is a very important part of taking the Part B Practical examination. The ability to read English proficiently is important.

Many people have difficulty following the tables in the Part B examination because they fail to read all the applicable footnotes. They also have difficulty using the micrometer and dial caliper if they don't use them as part of the their everyday work. Mathematics, although rudimentary, can be difficult if you are not proficient using a calculator or calculating areas and using conversion formulas.

None of the examinations are terribly difficult if you are familiar with the materials and if you have a broad background in welding, destructive testing, hands-on inspections, etc. The problem is that many people sitting for the CWI examination are involved in only one or two of the areas of "body of knowledge" covered by the CWI examinations. A welder may have never seen how a bend test or tensile test is performed. A lab tech that performs destructive tests may not have been in a welding shop to see the different welding processes commonly used. A NDT tech may have no experience performing destructive tests. Some of them may have never had to read or use a welding code before studying for the examination. The CWI covers a wide range of subjects and the person considering sitting for the examination has to have a level of proficiency in all the subjects included on the examinations.

Considering the number of individuals that have been or are currently certified, the test can be passed if the necessary materials have been studied before the examination. That being said, it amazes me when someone tells me they didn't study before the examination, but the test was too difficult for anyone to reasonably expect to pass. Duh!

Best regards - Al

By Superflux (****)

Date 02-11-2009 20:11

803056,
Everyone I've spoke to in the past year (most being sponsored by the Union Hall or their employer ie. no $$ out of pocket for them!) told me the seminar was gonna learn'em everything they needed to know. I hear there are a couple fantastic seminar instructors out there that have a 98% pass rate. To date none I know have passed!
Whatever you do, don't tell me you're going for your CWI!
You'll automatically be placed in that 2%....

By 803056

Date 02-11-2009 21:57

Maybe my skull is thicker than most, but what the heck are you trying to tell us?

Surely you are not saying you don't know anyone that has passed the CWI examinations other than yourself. If that is the case, I would start to hang out with a different crowd unless you enjoy being the only person in your cluster without a mono-brow! That gene pool needs some outside influence my friend!

Passing or failing has little to do with the instructor. Passing or failing the examinations is something the individual controls by studying the materials provided at the AWS sponsored seminar or similar preparatory class or study materials that one purchases and studies on their own. I don't care how good the instructor is, if you don't prepare for the examination, you most likely will not pass. Few people have the diverse back ground necessary to pass the CWI or the SCWI without proper preparation.

I had one person tell me the first time he took the test, he didn't crack a book once. Surprise of surprises, he failed. He failed all three parts of the examination after sitting through a seminar, again without reading the materials provided. I was at the second seminar he attended and he was no where to be seen after the mid-morning break. Did he pass the examinations on the third attempt? I somehow doubt he did.

In contrast, I know a number of people that have passed the examinations on their first attempt. I taught a CWI course for the Ironworkers in San Diego for several years. I could tell by the second day which candidates were preparing for the examinations and which individuals were most likely to pass. My co-instructor and I had a 85 to 95% success rate in predicting who would pass the CWI and who would fail simply by observing who was studying and who was partying. Those that passed did not attend baseball games, football games, or frequent the bars in the evening. They could be found in their rooms studying every evening. These individuals took their trade seriously and their approach to passing the CWI was the same as their approach to work. They were all business until the job was done, then they partied!

No, I'm not going for the CWI. I was certified as a CWI in 1981 (on a bet with an engineer). I took the entire CWI examination again in 1984 so I could take the D1.1 open book examination (I didn't find API 1104 that useful). I passed the SCWI in 1998 and again in 2006 (on a dare because someone overheard my comment that the SCWI wasn't difficult enough). Never open your mouth unless you know who will hear you! A case of "put up or shut-up"! When will I ever learn?

Best regards - Al

By Superflux (****)

Date 02-11-2009 22:44 Edited 02-12-2009 00:00

803056, if I may quote you "Passing or failing has little to do with the instructor." ...this was the point I failed to present...

I was on a couple of refinery and power plant projects, and these people were telling me how in the next few months they were going to have "GRAVY" job of QC. They were all under the gross misconception that Inspectors dont know much, that we just wander around and hmmm and hawwwww over some ugly beads.
ALL of the aforementioned were offered my time (off the clock, and they all declined), accesss to my books/notes, and No I just think it is sad that those 6 individuals were all wasting their brotherhood's/employer's resources by not preparing and relying on a seminar and the urban legend of a Golden Mythical Instructor that by osmosis can implant the ability to pass the cwi with no effort on the student/applicant's part. Apparently, according to them, all you do is sign up for a seminar and the CWI card is in the mailbox a month later.

For me, Inspection has been the toughest and most challenging job I've ever had, and have dedicated as many hours off the clock as on to be mediocre at it.
I believe all the CWI's I know have been certified for several years and have other NDT quals as well.
Any one who has read my post's can tell, I aint sharpest knife in the drawer (my unibrow has more hairs than yours!)... But I did have a secret weapon on test day. I studied my A$$ off for months prior to the exam. I had a screaming wife and crying kids who each had better ideas on how to spend my finances and could not afford the seminar.

I just came up here for a 3 month job, back in '07. Headin south in a couple of weeks to Froze Toes Pass, WY. Yes, Superflux is taking his show on the road...maybe to YOUR hometown!
Done all I can to diversify the gene pool here.

Seriously,
In closing, there are many such as yourself in this forum, I would proudly apprentice under free of charge if posssible just to learn the CRAFT!

Best Regards,
John

By 803056

Date 02-12-2009 03:17 Edited 02-12-2009 03:22

That's what I was looking for and that what I expected to hear from my friend Superflux. You must have been distracted while you were writing earlier, because you didn't finish what you started to say.

I agree with your comment that there are those that think attending the lecture portion of a seminar (or two or three) is sufficient to prepare for the examination. It isn't. It is a great help to many that attend, bur there are untold hours of studying that accompany the classroom lectures.

You would be wasting your time apprenticing with me, cause I'm still learning the ropes!

As a point of interest, I shave a little spot just above the bridge of my nose so the uni-brow isn't as noticeable. It's a trick I learned long ago. ;)

Best regards - Al

By jrw159

Date 02-12-2009 15:58

LOL, lazer hair removal worked better for me. Shaveing just made it grow back thicker! Lazer removal is more costly, but permanant. :-) Just a suggestion.

jrw159

By 803056

Date 02-12-2009 16:09

I'll keep that in mind!

Al

By ctacker (****)

Date 02-12-2009 19:04

I just use nair to wash my face, and dont need to worry about shaving :)

By jrw159

Date 02-13-2009 02:21

Why does this not suprise me? LOL :-)

By Superflux (****)

Date 02-13-2009 04:34

But, I like my eyebrow...it keeps the sweat from running down my nose.