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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Thought y'all might be interested in this
- - By jon20013 (*****) Date 02-20-2009 07:26
Don't ask me anything about it, I just found it listed on Roadtechs.com overseas job board and thought maybe some of you might be interested!

http://www.roadtechs.com/over/wwwboard/getpost.php?rec_nbr=100893
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 02-20-2009 15:00
Stay away from this one!
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-20-2009 15:14
Sounds to me like they are looking for someone to buy off the crap that was produced on that project.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 02-20-2009 15:17
This would be a serious test of anyones ethics
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-20-2009 15:19
That was what I was thinking too.
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 02-23-2009 23:28
I may be missing something here, but just what is it about that classified ad that leads you guys to believe that crap is being produced and that there is an ethical problem?
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 02-24-2009 01:41
China, Korea and Japan, I presume.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-24-2009 12:11
I associated it with the Bridge in Cali with all of the cracked welds so they rewrote the acceptance criteria to say that cracked welds are now OK, and searched for an inspection company that would buy off on that after firing the group of inspectors who found all of these bad welds which were placed by a fabricator in China.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 02-24-2009 13:51
I have several friends that are and were working on this project. People are being let go if they don't play by "the new rules" that are not in compliance with the applicable code and job specifications. That is how I have come to my conclusion.
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 02-24-2009 13:59
I'm not sure because I am not an engineer.  But I think that bridges that are being built for seismicly active area, just might want to be built without cracks.  Maybe its just me, but that seems to be a pretty important quality standard.  LOL
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 02-20-2009 15:03
Isn't there some CAWI's over in that region that could handle that. :)
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-20-2009 18:26
I think this guy just got his CAWI

Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 02-20-2009 18:48
isn't that CAWISAKI
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 02-21-2009 11:50
CAWISAKI...very funny....be humble my friend!!!

just curious, your age is 46 now and your CWI was issued in 2007!! and you had 30yrs of experience enjoying excellent paychecks.
Do you do welding inspection prior to your 2007-CWI? I just want to understand because I believe you're the world champion of ethics...LOL

fyi, i got mine at the age of 27 and i got exemption to take the pratical exam after the 9yrs bacause of NDT & API courses that I took earlier.

so talking about certification, I will bet mine are more than yours.
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-23-2009 17:09 Edited 02-23-2009 17:11
Hey Joey,

I just realized that response may have been at me. Actually I 1st certified as a CWI in 1990. Thus I was 26. Where did you take your course at ?

I have taken the complete exam 3 times and passed it without anything other than self study and thus have paid NOTHING for mine. Therefore I agree that your certifications are much more valuable than mine.

Does that meet up to your scrutiny ? I mean I would hate to not meet up to your requirements . Being the internet and all, that is so important.

So I guess you win that bet. We can put that on your "permanent record" .
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 02-23-2009 16:57
Pipewelder1999

Note the illegal welding done at crossing rebar!

Joe Kane
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-23-2009 17:12
Maybe there is some special high tech concrete that allows for more efficient methids of joining rebar ?
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-23-2009 18:29
High tech welding of rebar...Hmmmm, all these years I thought just twisting wire around each joint was strong enough.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-20-2009 18:54
Hey, where's Joey?? This looks to be right up his and his CAWI buddies alley. :-)

As for me, I don't think I need that kind of headache/heartburn right now, or ever. LOL

jrw159
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 02-21-2009 11:23
jrw159 - you forgot that I have the Engineer's Approval.!!!!LOL

I have many photos worse than that! Which can be used during class lectures.

Why you need to have an headache?? So long as you've written good report findings and issue NCR or Rejection Notice.....your job is done as a CWI.
You make me confuse!! I suppose to learn from you Buddy...LOL
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-21-2009 14:54
LOL, Lets just say that some of the locations listed are not well known for their quality and safety standards. The headaches would not result from the easy part of doing my job, but rather the resulting crys of dispair when they have to do it right. I can see it already, I put in my report, the forman goes to jibber jabbering and my translator comes to me and says, "He say we do like that for many year, why it no good now?" And my reply, "See the applicable code in sectionX X.XX.X and you will see that you have been doing it incorrectly for years." And I do not even want to think about the possible nightmare that could be lying in wait in the form of welder qualifications, if they even have them.

I would be interested in seeing some of the pictures you mention. :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 02-23-2009 09:33
jrw159

Let say your role is a TPI or Client Rep:

You mentioned: LOL, Lets just say that some of the locations listed are not well known for their quality and safety standards.

My Reply :  Prior to your departure date, you must ask for all the information that you'll need (eg, contract documents, drawings, job briefing, safety requirements, site condition, contact person, proper PPE, laptop, camera, soft copy of codes / std etc). Plan in advance, get some ideas on what you will expect at site. Set your mind that the worksite you will visit is a lousy place. If you reached the worksite unprepared, then that will be the start of headache.

You mentioned: The headaches would not result from the easy part of doing my job, but rather the resulting crys of dispair when they have to do it right.

My Reply: If you fail to highlight the problems that need urgent attention..., then that will be a big headache. Contact immediately you supervisor / manager / customer to inform on current site conditions. Inform them that work delay is eminent due to poor quality of work. You must tell the facts and don't exaggerate the situation. Anyway, what else you can do? Remember that you are not part of the contactor's organization and it's not your obligation to solve the problem for them.

You mentioned: I can see it already, I put in my report, the foreman goes to jibber jabbering and my translator comes to me and says, "He say we do like that for many year, why it no good now?" And my reply, "See the applicable code in sectionX X.XX.X and you will see that you have been doing it incorrectly for years." And I do not even want to think about the possible nightmare that could be lying in wait in the form of welder qualifications, if they even have them.

My Reply: Simple, don't talk much to the foreman! Don't give them an opportunity to compromise. You can show the contract document that you have. But it is not necessary for you to teach or to show what section of the code is applicable. You will surely have a headache of doing that. (I think you don't want to hear later from them this....."you told me this one but you never tell me to use the other one" why are you rejecting our work? We already followed your advise on the code section you told us!!)

By right you should be the one to ask for their QC personnel on what section of code they are using (do a bit of auditing / review on QC reports).  Tell the foreman (or In-house QC) that you have your comprehensive reports (plain English is preferable) with photos as evidence. You can ask your translator to fax / email immediately your report / NCR / rejection notice to the factory manager, don't delay, you should do it before you leave the factory. If the factory manager called to ask you on how to settle the problem, tell him/her politely to get an expert personnel from their headquarter to rectify the problem so as to meet the requirements stated in the contract document. (is it CAWISAKI? Sounds new to me, there is a Kawasaki steel factory in China and the headquarter is in Japan). If it's a Japanese company, they will surely send a representative from Japan if the non-conformance cannot be solved by local people. Always remember to be polite and low-profile but you must be firmed to your decision. This China people will surely cooperate with you because they need to collect payment from their Client.

After you rejected the items, you can have a peace of mind and nice sleep in the hotel. Don't accept gifts or even invitation for night outings; use an alibi that you have alcohol allergy. It will be a big headache once you start to accept all the gifts, food, drinks & woman. In China, surely they are many entertainment. Many woman in the bar are beautiful (same as in Thailand), surely you will be tempted once you go.  

You mentioned : I would be interested in seeing some of the pictures you mention. 

Reply : I'm worried that you may not be able to sleep or eat once you've seen those photos. Some of those photos were taken on fatal accident occurred during pneumatic test of pressure vessel.

Bye, I'll be away for many many days to Smokey Mountain.... to dig for recycle cans, nead to earn a living....LOL.

Joey D Poor
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-24-2009 14:27
Joey,
  As for the responses, I will just tongue in cheek say, "In a perfect world" but we all know the reality of it.

Now as for the pictures, have no fear, I have been exposed to these things before. You will be hard pressed to share anything of this nature with me that would have that bad of an effect on me.

jrw159 :-)
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 02-23-2009 14:14
I might look into this job.  There is no way in hell I would go there, maybe when I get some experience.  I wonder since it is Caltrop, if the foremen and other key personnel are Americans.  That would make the CWI job easier to have paisans in control.  With the inspector reporting in a common language with supervisors and foreman would make it much easier.  And also the original add said bridge componant project for Dept of Transportation.  Are those parts coming here or being used there?  This "could" be a sweet gig.
Parent - - By dmilesdot (**) Date 02-23-2009 16:12
I checked on this job.  I was going to take a leave of absence at my current position to go there to make a few bucks.  It seems that they may not be looking for anyone with substantial experience.  They may only want newbies that they can "train" to their way of inspection.  Seems that I was "overqualified".  Anyway after several phone calls to determine my status, I lost interest.
Dave
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-24-2009 14:29
Classic. Sounds like they are looking for a "Yes Man". LOL Not the job for me, thats for sure. I am suprised it does not say "CAWI prefered."  :-)
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 02-24-2009 17:24
That is an interesting thought.  I could imagine the language barrier that might be involved. 

"Reject" translates to "Ship it!".

Oh...wait...that's the "QC to Production" translation.  I got confused.
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 02-25-2009 16:55
All you guys are just scaremongering in my opinion and bringing major American companies into disrepute. I do not work on the bridge project but I am in the same yard working for the same construction company as the bridge but on another project and I cannot believe there is any truth in these allegations of a cover up. When I first joined this major American construction company six years ago I was so impressed with the company's attitude to quality, so different from what I was used to in the UK. Safety first, quality then schedule that is how they honestly operate. Twice I have had e-mails passed onto me from my boss from Bay Bridge personnel giving us a heads up on problems that they have seen walking by our job, why do this if they have no concern for quality? This Chinese construction yard has massive facilities and  a work force to match. They do not have the ideals of quality as they are willing to rework something several times to get it right. In the west operate on a "get it right first time" policy due to the cost of labour. They do learn however and quality is improving in China overall. I think that rhe basic problem here is whether you should have a protectionist policy when placing orders especially if it is tax payers money. Should you go for the most competitive bid and trust your American construction company to assure a quality job or should you build it in the States regardless of cost.

Nanjing
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-25-2009 18:37
I vote for building in the states at any cost, including refinement and forming of the steel.
We are not bringing major American companies into disrepute either. You can sell the " cannot believe there is any truth in these allegations of a cover up" to someone else. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 02-25-2009 18:47
Now its getting colder in china. I hear there are issues of preheat coming up as well
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 02-26-2009 15:00
You hear? you are not here! you do not know. Winter here has finished, Spring has started. No problems with preheat.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 02-26-2009 15:50
OK you right?
Parent - By crater Date 02-27-2009 00:10
Nanjing now you sound foolish. Some of that material is 4"  thick and requires preheat of almost 200 degrees C. Summer in China isn't that hot. Yet I know
the chinese will not spend the moiney for gas for preheat unless they are being watched constantly.

So please don't try to sell that crap to us. Preheat is always a big issue whenever I have worked with Chinese fabricators.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 02-26-2009 18:10
Nanjing, to be fair to you and the other hard working Chinese people;

First off, I have no malice towards you or your people.  My comment on 'QC not understood by Production' is common to every language, not just Chinese (I've been told that "Chinese" is actually many different dialects, or languages).

Next, what follows is not intended to be insulting - that solves nothing- but it is my opinion.

I can say that recently I saw several hundred tons of structural that had been fabricated and galvanized in China.  The workmanship and fit was excellent.  The welding was very good, the copes were cut properly and were smooth with no nicks.  I was told that about only a dozen or so holes had to be reamed and 50% of that was due to a drawing error - not because of fabrication.  There was some cracking because of a reaction with galvanizing but that happens here in the USA too - (this site has many posts on the topic).

Sadly, the worst steel I saw on that site came from a fabricator in the States - most is probably in compliance with the Code of Standard Practice, but it's very ugly in comparison.  And we don't know if it will bolt up yet.

On the other hand, some of the worst welding I have even seen came from China, in the form of 3 inch thick weldments.  The welds had everything wrong with them that is listed in D1.1.  They would have been a good example of what a weld should NOT look like.

I do not know what it is like in China, having never been there.  American people largely rely on TV to see what your land is like which is probably how you learn about the USA.  We all saw the Olympics telecasts. 
We know that China was recently "thrown under the bus" as the reason prices for steel, oil, and everything else skyrocketed.  Now it's looking like you were simply the easy scapegoat, in view of what we hear the about world's economic situation on the nightly news. 
And we like to joke that the Chinese quality program is a gun held against the back of the head - but I know that isn't true - evil governments simply cannot stand for long.

Your good quality fabricated steel was a wake-up call to our company and it should be to every fabricator in the USA.  If we want to compete, we cannot let our quality slip, because you are there to replace us.  That's a good thing.
The bad thing to us is that with high energy costs, steel prices, environmental requirements, and everything else, it was cheaper for the owner to have the steel shipped halfway across the world than it was to have the steel fabricated locally.

Well, water seeks it's own level and things will level out.  You have given us a wake up call.  Quality and production issue can be good or bad anywhere in the world.  My company is no longer competing with only local companies, we now have to consider the global market where we didn't before.  We'll be ready.
Parent - By hvymax (**) Date 02-26-2009 20:36
Lets hope the steel is made to a higher standard than they use for some of their ATV's and go-carts.My neighbor found out that the tubing and sheetmetal brackets were all made of something that resembled cast potmetal at the fractures. Fortunately the Pep Boy's specials seem to be much better.You get what you pay for
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 02-26-2009 21:05
Chet, your post almost makes me want to look into that job post after all!
Parent - - By michael kniolek (***) Date 02-26-2009 23:08
I have a pisture of a chinese vessel that exploded (not a knock on craftmanship) i think the reason was wrong grade.
MDK
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 02-27-2009 02:39
I believe I've seen that - pretty scary.  The report I read attributed it to the wrong material like you said.  That is probably why a company we fabricate for has prohibited steel from China, India, and a few other countries from use on their projects.

Not trying to beat this topic to death but that's probably similar to what products from Japan were like just after WWII.  Cheap junk was being shipped here because that's what Japan was told the US people wanted.  Once they got that "misunderstanding" straightened out, look what happened.  Today, Japan is a world leader on innovation and quality.

We all know that there is enough slipshod quality right here in the US, there have been quite a few posts about that on this site.  We don't like being on the wrong side of it but business is business.  I'm just saying that if we (collectively speaking) allow our quality and productivity to slip, we will lose business and have nothing to replace it with.  It was a hard kick in the shins to me to see it first hand but the Chinese mean business and they will get their quality problems solved as the Japanese did. 
I saw the same thing with Hyundai welding wire.  I have not done any PQRs with it but the trials we did showed that it was some nice running stuff and the price was almost half.  That was another wake-up call.  I shared with some Lincoln reps that they too need to take overseas competition seriously (not that Lincoln takes me seriously).

The best way to stay in business is to always try to be better than our competition.
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 02-27-2009 13:24 Edited 02-27-2009 13:26
CHGuilford I agree with you 100%. Every country has had catastrophic failures it is nothing new. Here in China they have the advantage of funding on a massive scale however they do not have a skilled workforce to match. Here in ZPMC there is a workforce of 44000 maily building container cranes ( they claim that they have 80% of the world market!). I think there saving grace is that modern low carbon steels, even in thicker sections, are so forgiving when it comes to welding. On my job it is relatively thick, 3"-4", and my biggest problem is unacceptable repair rates due to the welders not having the same skill level as say in any fabrication company in the west. Their engineers are all young and smart, well educated, willing to learn, and unbelieveably hard working. I agree with you that once they do understand and take up a quality attitude they will be hard to beat.

On another subject you mentioned experience of using Hyundai welding wire. ZPMC use Hyundai supercored 71H rutile flux cored wire. We may have to PWHT some of the welds I have tried contacting Hyundai without success (unbelievable they do not have an e-mail contact address only a fax number!).
Do you (or anyone else have experience of stress relieving this wire or have any data of typical mechanical properties in the post weld heat treated condition?

By the way I am not Chinese but Scottish!

NKG
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-27-2009 13:47
"once they do understand and take up a quality attitude they will be hard to beat."-quote

I don't doubt that one bit.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 02-27-2009 14:18
Oops! Mea culpa on the assumption that you are Chinese.  Sorry 'bout that.

And again, I'm sorry but I have no PWHT data.  I do recall that the sales rep was from Suwanee,Georgia.  He gave www.hwusa.com as a web address but I see that it is now "website not found".  Strange. 
I do know that Hyundai was trying hard to make inroads into the States but if we can't contact them for technical info, that isn't likely to happoen.
Parent - By Nanjing Date 02-27-2009 14:34
I tried that website too but got no response. Their sales office in Shanghai doesn't have anyone who speaks English and my Chinese welding engineer doesn't understand the black art of making these wires. O me miserum!
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 02-27-2009 15:43
A Scotsman in China.  There's got to be a punchline there somewhere, maybe something like "My name is Jock Chang, but my friends call me Guido".
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-28-2009 02:48
"Nanjing, to be fair to you and the other hard working Chinese people"

Chet,
Nearly fell off my chair laughing at that because I knew all along who Nanjing was.
He was my boss, mentor and friend on the $5 billion Goro Nickel Project.
Now he has snuck off back to China and left me carrying the can in New Caledonia.

You must have too much spare time on your hands Mr B with all these postings.
A Scotsman born in Montmartre and residing in China, now that is a mixed bag,
Best wishes,
Shane
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 02-28-2009 13:16
Shane, got much hands on experience on GSFCAW, SAW and arc airing? No promises not spoken to anyone about it
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-28-2009 22:49
Nanjing,
Plenty of experience Mr B but they are the processes no self respecting pipe welder would ever admit to having used.
I try to avoid them, much too dirty for this fella.
Finish here end of March, looks like I may be off to Pluto LNG.
Cheers mate - All the best,
Shane
Parent - By Nanjing Date 03-01-2009 11:50
Just as I thought Shane, nothing hard about welding, just like playing the flute, just blow in the end and wiggle your fingers...
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 03-01-2009 04:20 Edited 03-01-2009 04:25
Actually Shane I did think that he had a better grasp on written English than the average Chinaman has.  I just figured that fit in well with the competitive improvements. 
Did I at least have the "hard working" part right?

Oh well....
Parent - - By chang (*) Date 03-13-2009 05:50
I just wanted to emphasize what nanjing wrote ...

In my views, the main issue in China is management and the lack of power of the QC department, when there is an actual QC. Those two lead to quality issues and yes, welding conditions can be fairly scary in some shops but some others are good and reliable.

In the overall, after quite a few months spent around Shanghai and some other locations in the East part, I have to say that it is possible to have a good vessel, flanges, fittings  built here but there is a need for an inspector all the time for reports and at least, a regular visit from a foreign inspector.

Being able to speak the language quite fluently, although im european, it helps a lot to get a good connection with the workers/foremen. I get good results out of it as they will listen more carefully if i explain to them directly or through a QC guy than if a white collar who can speak english explains to them.

As for pre-heating, I had problems just recently with welding of thick plates/nozzle (above 100mm) but after a few days explaining over and over and getting the blue collars management involved and explanations put straight forward on the table, I have no issue anymore. They all knew about it but sometimes the lack of power from the QC guys is just dis encouraging them to stop anything wrong or to really perform their job to the best of their ability.

If the workshop is somewhat clean and if the basic safety rules are applied then you can almost be sure that the quality of the shop you've set foot in will be above average.

Thats just my humble input from a local experience in China.

Cheers

Chang
Parent - By Nanjing Date 03-13-2009 14:54
Hi Mr Chang, where are you working? I take it that you are Chinese, perhaps from Singapore or Malaysia. Please get in touch.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Thought y'all might be interested in this

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