Are you for or against removal of Off Topic Bar And Grill?

By CWI555

Date 07-26-2009 15:28

against it.

By rick harnish (***)

Date 07-26-2009 16:08

Against.

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 07-27-2009 23:15

AGAINST !!!!!

By jnieto

Date 07-26-2009 17:01

AGAINST IT !!!!!!

By patg

Date 07-26-2009 16:09

Against

By Tyler1970 (***)

Date 07-26-2009 16:19

I WANT IT BACK!!!! Against

By PlasmaHead2 (***)

Date 07-26-2009 16:24

Against, we lost all the good jokes!

By scrappywelds (***)

Date 07-26-2009 17:34

against, off topic forums keep people coming back to the main forums and contributing

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 07-26-2009 19:11

A post about the forum, in the topic area “posts about the forum”.

Sadly.. When visitors have come to our forum lately, they have been exposed to the rhetoric of people who think a good joke is to talk about a U.S. Military Honor Guard assassinating a sitting American President. An insult to the Country, to the President, and the armed forces in general, as well as the thousands of soldiers who serve in Honor Guards in particular, who provide comfort and respect to the families of fallen soldiers on behalf of a grateful nation.

Visitors also had the opportunity in our off topic forum to interact with the pillars of our online professional community who mockingly blather about giant blocks of coal being transported to Mt. Rushmore to be carved into the likeness of the first Black U.S. President....   Oh but it doesn't stop there.. There are dozens of follow-up postings on those very threads, like a pack of yapping wild dogs that applaud the creativity of these violent, un-American, and racist commentators.

Little examples off the top of my head that make it easy for me to understand why the Administrators took some kind of action. Not that long ago, selected technical posts from our forum were published in the Welding Journal…. Imagine if the off topic dirty laundry were made even more public than it already was… And the tarnish that goes to those original forum posters when their good reputations are associated with the ugliness that occurs in the off topic area…

It’s gone far beyond a simple matter of avoiding the off topic section if one doesn't wish to be bothered by the ranting of others.

Every poster and every post, is in a very real way, a representative of the AWS and the forum. People seem to forget this in the passion of a heated debate or in their eagerness to impress somebody with a joke.

So it's not a matter of one bad apple being an embarrassment to an entire profession represented by the AWS forum... It’s a sizable minority, leaders and followers alike, who have forced the hand of the administrators to try to do something to put a halt to the awkward foolishness coming in a daily torrent to the off topic section of the forum.

It's not about censorship in any way, or big brother, or Political Correctness, or one special interest group dominating other interests..... These violent, foolish bigots can promote their ideas and laugh at each other’s jokes on their very own blogs or literally thousands of different online venues, if they elect to do so.. Nobody is forcing them to say or to think any differently than their dark, cold hearts direct them.

Personally I don't care what the administrators do with the Off Topic Forum. They can keep it closed or not.. As long as the ugliness of recent weeks is not repeated... If those types of postings come back, you won’t see me here again… So for me the problem is now solved; and while I miss the dialogue of the off topic form, I’m also ambivalent about bringing it back.   So vote it up or vote it down.. On the other hand, just by making this post I will probably lose some people I judged to be friends. Maybe it’s just time to cut bait.

Nonetheless, the Administrators have better things to do than to scan our off topic postings to make sure the race haters and provocative fools are not running amok once again.

Does this mean the Forum has lost some of its savor? Like Scrappy said about "people coming back and contributing"; Do we miss an opportunity to learn more about how folks in our profession think and feel about any number of topics, to talk about our lives and our families?... Yep... That’s a consequence of lack of self discipline.   Some folks exercised their freedom to speak and now we all are living with the consequence of that action... The freedom remains by the way... The consequence just happens to linger as well.

You can still say whatever you want.

Lar

By darren

Date 07-27-2009 02:47 Edited 07-27-2009 02:50

as always lawrence i find, is a voice of reason.
i did not frequent the joke part, i read it once and found it to be low brow and base so i did not go back.
the off the topic for me was a place to hear other points of view learn some stuff, and at least for me the best part was to commiserate with people that fully believe in the declaration of independence and the constitution of the united states of america.(with a smattering of quantum and particle physics/consciousness)

i am sure there are times where i was not so popular and tried to be steadfast in supporting tolerance and inclusivity.
i found many posts reprehensible and was often stunned at the malice and wanton bigotry, but as the saying goes true tolerance is the tolerance of intolerance.
the freedom of speech has at its core one of the very most important elements to a functioning society,truth as one see it. in that there are people who harbor "truths" that i find malevolent and disturbing but unless they have the right to speak unfettered then how will we know what is in their hearts, and therefore have the opportunity to offer another perspective.
if i am in any way to blame for the otbag being closed down i would like to apologize for any wrongdoings perceived or real, as i found the topics, the people and the conversation to be one of the highlights of my day.
i would like to thank the administrators for the opportunity to converse with what i found to be a very well informed and decent group with a few miscreants thrown in.
i will abide by their decision as it is their sand box and they can make the rules, no one is forcing me to play in it and i am only a guest.
thank you all
darren

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 07-27-2009 23:12

Lawrence,
I posted the Joke about the Honor Gaurd and the 21 Gun Salute. For your info. it was sent to me by a Very Highly Decorated Marine from the Vietnam Era. If he took it as a Joke, I see no reason not to laugh. After all, As YOU said, It was a Joke. With the situation this Country is in now, we ALL better learn to laugh a little. It is just about all there is left to do. I also posted the Joke about the Coal at Mt Rushmore. It was sent to me by a Local Judge. I guess if I had of said they were moving a 500 ton Peice of Soapstone to carve out of, it would have been okay ? Sorry, Soapstone doesnt work for Obama. HE KNOWS HE IS BLACK ! This was not a racist joke ! If you are not sure of his knowledge of his own race, write him a letter and ask him. I, for one, am betting that he knows his race. Not everyone in here has the same veiw as you about our wonderful Leader. Basically You have managed to provide us with your own political veiws with your post. There was a simple question ask. Are you for or against the removal of Off Topic ? That required a SINGLE word to answer. It's either FOR or AGAINST. In closing I will say this. Lighten Up. Laugh and quit taking life so serious. After all it was called The Off Topic Bar and Grill. I never went to the local bar and expected to run into my preacher ! Its all in good fun.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 07-27-2009 23:32

You still don't get it? Well, I guess I better start praying for you Cactus because you'll need all you can get with that attitude.

Henry

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 07-28-2009 01:56

Henry, Yes I do get it, I also get censorship, Freedom of speech, and all of the other things that Our veterans, who Lawrence spoke about, fought to defend, My Idea is like this... If I choose NOT to read Hustler or if Porno offends me then I have the choice NOT to buy it or read it. If I like it, then I will choose TO buy it and read it. Much like a joke, If I dont like jokes then I dont read them. If you can show me JUST ONE member of this (or any) forum who has NEVER told a "dirty" Joke or a politcally un-correct joke then I will call them a LIAR. We all do it, We do and say things we shouldn't. It's a part of life. I am not a Bad guy nor am I just tyring to be a hard head. I have 2 degrees, therefore I dont qualify as stupid. I do beleive in choice. I dont believe that your veiw or opinion makes my veiw or opinion wrong. Nor vice versa. I do understand that this is a private forum and that members CAN be barred from use ( such as Mclovin of whom had a porno site attached to his profile) I dont think that any of the Jokes that have been told on these forums warrants its deletion. They are just what they are .... JOKES. I guess all and all, my problem is that I say what is on my mind. I dont sugar coat it. and I dont beat around the bush. I have tried my best to help as many members of this forum as I could wether it be in the form of Advice, Knowledge, or a Job. I have NEVER turned my back. AND I usually get the job done. Dont feel the need to pray for me. Pray for my Son. Just like Shad's he died. My Son was 13. I dont need your prayers because YOU think I have a BAD Attitude. You need to ask yourself one thing the next time you pray.... Who are you to judge me ? I also beleive that when I got an Email from a 60 Minutes producer with CBS News. and they ask do do a story on myself and the welding industry as a whole, I felt that SOMEONE must value MY opinion. I have read on this forum that you are a very wise man. Knowing that you must realize that for every action there is an equal and opposite re-action. This was mine

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 07-28-2009 02:36 Edited 07-28-2009 02:45

Good for you ;)

I'll still pray for you anyway whether you like it or not... Btw, I'm not judging you as a person because, that's not my thing believe it or not.. I'm also not going to equate what was an obvious racist remark in the form of a joke as somewhat acceptable as a member of the American Welding Society which brings me to the question out of curiosity...
Are you a member of the American Welding society in good standing whether being an individual member or a corporate member?

Because if you are as a person with multiple degrees of whatever, and I say this because you did not elaborate as to which specific degrees you've earned, then you should have the intelligence to know that those types of jokes are not acceptable here just from reading the already previously posted rules & regulations...

And as a Member & Educator that DOES REPRESENT the interests of the AMERICAN WELDING SOCIETY - it is an insult to any and all of my fellow members when someone posts such vile whether it be online, or says it on sixty minutes for all I care!!!

Just for the record, and The President even acknowledges this himself... He's NOT 100% BLACK!!! He is Bi-racial if you want to get technical so, Coal would not be the proper stone to use... However, I could think of the different types of granite that would do just fine besides, there's already enough stone there to get the job done. ;)

The Honor Guard joke if that's what you want to call it, was a terrible one at that, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Secret Service doesn't contact you for clarification because, even in a joke like that one, can sometimes be misconstrued as a terroristic threat even if this was not your intention, and I know in my heart that it wasn't but, it doesn't mean that you can post stuff like that without someone like myself and Lawrence whom both are veterans of the USN - Second to None!!! from becoming downright insulted for threatening the institution of the Presidency by using another institution of such high esteem as the Honor Guard even in jest - to eliminate the President!!!

Look! I'm not a happy camper with most of his broken promises, and double talk but, what do you expect from politicians, and I didn't vote for him being the independent that I am and will always be!!! Yet I didn't post a joke that was racist or to be potentially misconstrued as threatening to the President of our great country whether I voted for him or not!!!

Any Veteran of true honor, and integrity would know better than to insult or disgrace the office of the President which you did with the awful joke (if that's what you want to call it) which most definitely incited racism, and hatred that is unacceptable here!!! I mean after all that has been said, and done here as a consequence - You still don't get it, and you still think that you didn't do something that was beyond the norms of decency in here????

If that's the case then please take your IGNORANCE elsewhere because it is not welcome here, and I'm sure that the rest of us will be more careful as to what we post in here from now on.

One more thing... Respond if you like but, this is the last time I will debate this issue with you or anyone else because I KNOW THAT I AM RIGHT!!!

How do I know this???
You just proved it with your arrogant self - righteous response and that about sums it up in a nutshell - PERIOD!

Repectfully,
Henry

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 07-28-2009 02:42

Like I said before..........You are entitled to your opinion and I'll have mine.

By tnhnt

Date 08-12-2009 03:00

Very well put Dwayne!!!

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 07-28-2009 03:44 Edited 07-28-2009 04:38

Dwyane,

Ok, they were jokes.. You liked them and your friends liked em, I didn’t, in fact they upset me. I don't know if I need to lighten up or not but I'm sure not going to mention them again beyond this post.. Even Judges can say things in poor taste.. And as far as my fellow veterans and what they say,,, I do tend to cut them much more slack when they criticize.. but the jokes were not criticism. Who am I to cut slack..? nobody at all.

I provided an opinion and now so have you... Ok.

To answer the direct question.. Yes or no doesn't seem to apply any more... I'm ok with the solution Ross has provided for the off topic stuff. EDIT: and I would like to participate.

I also realize that not everybody has the same view as I do about our Leader. But even a cursory glance at any of my posts over the last nine years on this forum would educate you to the fact that I oppose with thought, word and deed, just about everything President Obama stands for.

Separating serious from non-serious stuff and laughing more is a good piece of advice.. I'll say thanks for that.

When I'm at a bar, alone by myself, in a chat room, with the preacher, in the classroom or on the line making sparks, I work very hard to be the same man. It doesn't matter if I run into somebody unexpected.

In closing... I know a lot of guys like you, I bet the people who really know you best, the ones you depend on and the ones that depend on you, would judge and describe you first off as being a generous man... That’s what I discern from reading between the lines... I didn’t like what you said.. You didn’t like what I said.. Maybe there is nothing more to it than that.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-08-2009 00:46

for and against.

on the one hand I willed myself to stop going there as it had become extremely political hostile and negative.

On the other hand as a former forum operator most forums don't survive if they are "single topic", this is perhaps the best forum for technical welding related information and I forsee contributors leaving if there's nothing to talk about besides welding.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-08-2009 17:10

"As a former forum operator" Huh??? what do you mean by using the word "operator???"

Respectfully,
Henry

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-10-2009 17:50

I used to own and moderate several websites and forums back in my formative days, including a forum with about 2,000 active users at it's height... but I stopped that about 6 years ago

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 08-09-2009 14:58

I agree. For what ever reason the off topic was removed then put on a "Request" this is heavy handed and poorly executed. What ever the post and the posters positions could have been handled by the moderators and forum administrator.
Instead the administor simple removed access the the section and placed a cryptic message.
That is what has upset me. While this site may be owned and administered by AWS the content of the forum does NOT belong to them. I am a moderator on two forums where we as moderators have the power to remove post and put posters on moderated status and even ban them. Without approval from the administrator. But here the administrator is THE God and Guru for post and section.
As the site evolves those who feel the administrator is running the site in a arbitrary and heavy handed manner will find other forums to contribute to and support. There are a lot of this forum members that will come to this site to keep up on other members and ideas, but will not contribute in any way to the content.

By ross

Date 08-09-2009 17:05

Kahunna,

Sorry if you thought it was heavy handed and poorly executed. I thought we were very responsive in providing a solution based on good suggestions and input from the users, where we now have an off-topic section that requires virtually no moderation. This is preferable to doing moderation/censorship based on acceptability criteria that not everyone would agree on.

You would want us to grant more power to moderators. We have instead opted for MORE freedom of expression by making the OTF an option open to any adult upon request. It can be unregulated because what happens in OTF stays in OTF, and my advertisers, bosses, and educator volunteers don't have it in their faces.

I really don't want to fight with everyone every time a post has to be deleted or a person banned or not banned, or whenever someone doesn't agree with where a particular moderator draws the line.

If you have a better idea, we'll try that, too. If there is a broad consensus on what is acceptable or not in off-topic postings, I'd love to see it.

Ross
AWS Marketing

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 08-10-2009 00:31

I do think it is heavy handed and poorly executed. And as a full dues paying and long time member of AWS I am required to ASK for permission to enter a section of the forum because 'advertisers, bosses, and educator volunteers" have deemed the content adult?
This forum was the only true link I have had with peers in the industry. I do not live close to any active AWS section and this forum was a great connection.
But "advertisers, bosses, and educator volunteers" have deemed some content adult and to get access to that adult content I have to ask permission?
When the Cubs win the pennant!
The only idea I have is to return the Off Topic Forum. But your "advertisers, bosses, and educator volunteers" have decided this is not gonna happen, so again the only thing I can do is read postings and respond privately and contribute what little I can through other outlets.
Curtis Stewart

By ross

Date 08-10-2009 00:36

Well, you have some good points there.

Ross

By HgTX

Date 08-10-2009 16:36

Huh? I had no problem stumbling across the invitation to join the now-private OTBAG. It's really not hard to find, and the instructions for how to get signed up are not hard to understand.

What would be really heavy-handed would be the moderators going through and deciding which posts could stay and which had to go. And I'm sure you'd be screaming "censorship" about that as well.

Face it, this is AWS's forum, and what is presented out in public reflects on them. There has been some ugly, hateful stuff in OTBAG and I can't blame them for not wanting to present that to the world.

OTBAG is still there if you want it. If you can't find it, it must be because you're willfully being obtuse just to have something to complain about, because I'm sure you're smart enough to find it.

Hg

By ross

Date 08-10-2009 17:23

OTB&G seems to be thriving in its new undisclosed location.

Ross
AWS Marketing

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 08-11-2009 11:24

How about adding a chat?
Just an idea :)

3.2

By ross

Date 08-11-2009 14:29

We can do that. I enabled chat before, but some visitors were posting to it like it was a forum because they didn't know the difference.

Ross
AWS Marketing

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 08-11-2009 14:48

I would think it could be pretty cool :)
Please sign me up for wherever the chat will be located (if you decide to re-open it)

3.2

By ross

Date 08-11-2009 14:51

Start a thread on it in this "About the Forum" section and we'll see what the interest is. Thanks.

Ross

By darren

Date 07-26-2009 18:37

against

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 07-26-2009 18:45

For

By ctacker (****)

Date 07-26-2009 18:47

looks like your outvoted 3.2 :)

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 07-26-2009 19:13

Heh....Not the first time :)

I do like jokes and off topic stuff myself.
I just think it would be a shame if some of the disputes in the OT threads would have influence on the help - or lack of - in the welding discussions.

3.2

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 07-27-2009 18:56

I agree.
I could see how ones opinion of another could change because of differences in views on totally unrelated topics. Even outside of the off topic forum hostile posts made it hard for me to read the posters other writings without that in the back of my head.

By ctacker (****)

Date 07-26-2009 18:47

against!!!

By uphill

Date 07-26-2009 19:04

Against, and I am sorry if anything I posted was taken personal. It was a good place to vent.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 07-26-2009 19:27

Against and gone.
Good luck to the educators and marketing genus. The education section of the forum is a real hotbed of activity.

By swsweld (****)

Date 07-26-2009 19:47

Against. Some of the most heated and hostile threads have been in the "welding related" topics.
When that happens again will they remove the "Inspection", "General" topic?
If things get out of hand it would make since to me to lock the thread as before instead of pulling the entire topic.

This reminds me of those that want to ban guns to eliminate crime. The problem will not be solved by shutting down OTBAG. It is the responsibility of the members to respond and disagree in a respectful manner, as much as possible. Disputes that might be embarrassing to AWS will happen again... if that is the reason they pulled it.

I still don't know what triggered it. I wasn't on for a few days.
I'm guessing it was because of a thread about Professor Gates arrest that got out of hand???? Anyone?

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 07-26-2009 20:02

It is irrelevant.
The marketing and education people want to run the forum. Have at it. The contributions to the forum are because WE elect to contribute. The growth and educational benefit of this forum is not due to marketing. It is due to the members of the forum.
Ross it right. This is AWS forum and they can do as the well please.
We can to! Along with our contributions.
This has been fun. To bad.

By Cactusthewelder (*****)

Date 07-28-2009 01:07

I am curious as to what the Welders are supposed to exchange in the Welders Exchange Forum ? God help us all if we tell a joke !

By Tyler1970 (***)

Date 07-27-2009 00:18

Here is a simple kinda fix. Why dont we just post a new thread somewhere here in these fourms, and just post all of our jokes and anything there that we want!

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 07-26-2009 20:15

Is it gone ? :) Oh yea I was able to hit the "Unread Posts" button and not read through all the stuff way over my head .

If it comes back, I'm fine with it but I if it comes back I will not protest. Some of the content was stuff I wouldn't want my kids reading. And though I have participated in way more than my share of bad topics for discussion, I still don't care for it.

It wasnt here when I got here but that doesn't make it of no value. In my everyday life I don't read a paper with more than 6 pages. I do not have TV at home, when on the internet I avoid stuff not welding or computer related, If I get an email with FW in front of it its deleted before reading who its from 99% of the time.

Its kind like the checkout aisle at the grocery store, sometimes there is something that catches your attention but then you realize its a picture of Micheal Jackson/Sasquatch/Elvis clone dressed in an alien suit. Not to make light all of the content there but it seems the stuff I decided to read turned out like that.

I just won't miss it. I could however be convinced it was good if someone would write 1100 pages about it and give me free stuff!

By Mat

Date 07-26-2009 20:54

Against it's removal.

It was good for kicks!

By rick harnish (***)

Date 07-27-2009 00:40

What is really going on in this world was being discussed in the deleted forum.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 07-27-2009 16:50

And I thought it was all on CNN !

I did notice I could turn off forums I didn't want to view. I had forgotten about that feature. Another option to minimize the "general public" or students from coming across all of the fine material on the off topic forum is to make it for registered members only. I don't know if the MWF forum software supports that or not.

Another option would be for a member here to start a forum of his own. Some sites have free hosting as long as they can place their adds on your forum. No one should have a problem with that. Its freedom of speech.

The message system in this board works well. The person who gets the sight started could just place a link in their posts. Just a thought. I can definately understand how the "American Welding Society" would have to take a great amount of care in reference to the content that "Appears" to be related to them.

Everyone gets in a Huff when they are censored however I think government censorship and a private organizations censorship are different creatures. The ability for an organization to control the material that is located in their "community" should be as "free" as the abilty for someone to publicly voice their opinion. I don't "like" having my posts removed or modified but for $4.99 a month I can write WHATEVER I want on the internet and not worry about what someone else thinks. I have had posts removed or in some cases "edited" by admins on the weldingweb forum. And I didn't like it but accepted as what happens. When I have a post there I think may be modified or deleted, I take a screenshot of it and place it on my own website or in a file on my computer. Just in case it appears different later. Or not at all.

What about the confidentiality agreements that most have signed. Are they different than the user agreement that AWS has to get on this forum ? (I think they do) .

By ross

Date 07-27-2009 18:18

Pipewelder 1999 said: "Another option to minimize the "general public" or students from coming across all of the fine material on the off topic forum is to make it for registered members only. I don't know if the MWF forum software supports that or not."

We can do that. I could give access to it on request to individuals. It wouldn't be visible to others.

Ross
AWS Marketing

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 07-27-2009 18:25

Another forum where I participate has a "political section" and it requires an additional password to enter, and to gain access to that PW you have to PM one of the admins(and be over 18years of age)......if this software has that option maybe that could work here?

...just a suggestion

By ross

Date 07-27-2009 18:30

Yes, that's doable. Let's share our thoughts on that approach, and I'll set up a place for people to request membership. It won't require an additional password. Your existing forum account would provide access.

Ross