Fella's,
Wow!
The only limitation is the person.
That piece of paper does not make you a good welding engineer. It can be an asset to be sure. Mostly pertaining to opening certain doors and entry level pay(though I'll match my salary against 95% of the degreed WE's out there-well, except maybe for jon but then I ain't in Kazahkstan :) ). But it can also be a liablilty. Few degree'd WE's I have seen have the ability to trouble shoot shop floor problems, though you can't convince them of it because Professor s&%t for brains told them this is how you do it. Thats where the real WE work takes place. You may as well staple the paper to their forehead.
However, a discipline few shop grown WE's utilize is design calculation. It is, admitedly a weakness of mine, but mostly because I have just never had the need, nor the time, nor the inclination, to apply there. And this is also where the legality issue comes in. We sub our code calcs to a PE. A PE by the way who has no welding background.
Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against having a degree. Far from it. Often thought of going back to school myself, because I think that the route Marty took by actually working in the real world and then gaining it later on is perhaps the best way to go about it and I have some admiration for those who do it that way. Its not an easy way to go. But it has been the bulk of my experience that the great majority of WE's that slipped right into college from high school are mediocre. Though I am proud to say I have many friends that are exceptional and notably counter to the bulk of my experience.
Also, it depends on where you wish to end up. If you want to be involved in cutting edge research then the paper is the way to go most likely. If you wanna work in production and actually be involved in real world welding, other than what I mentioned above, its almost useless.
Again, it depends on the person.
OK, thats my rant.
Let me relate an experience of mine to make the point.
Many moons ago in galaxy far far away I was giving a paper at an EPRI conference. It was one of my first solo efforts. I was terrified. And looking out at all the PHd's and such with all their years of experience a question entered my head. "What is that I actually have to offer and what the hell am I doing here?"
Well, at the conclusion of the presentation and based upon the comments afterwards the question was answered. They were starving for knowledge as to how to actually weld a certain alloy of which the paper was oriented. There was enough paper and credentials represented there to fill the hotel, and yet, this dumbf*%k welder actually had something to offer as pertains to welding engineering.
Imagine that.
I actually have been involved in welding design calculation, including the "no one has your back approach" where no one was double checking my calculations. Legally, even I tremor will outsource to P.E's if and when I can. As you mentioned most of them have 0 welding experience. I ran the "simple" calculations, I helped draft the design requirements I helped communicate the requirements to a P.E and finally did a lot of design for manufacturing work. It's one thing to certify all the connections are strong enough, it's another to make them as practical and easy to weld as possible.
In my opinion a lot of the reasons people are dissatisfied with what welding engineers is they are asking a lot from one person. It requires a great deal of practical and workable technical knowledge, the ability to function and communicate smoothly in a engineering setting, and the ability to work on the floor and get things out the door. Very few people have the range and interests of talents to be both a good engineer, have a lot of technical knowledge and be a good production guy, because they require a lot of different things. like in any field the good guys float to the top,and not everyone has the chance to get such a range of skills.
I don't claim I'm there yet. the degree is just a hoop to jump through, but it does help tackle a large chunk of the technical side you don't usually acquire as a welder. By itself it's not of much use.
Where'd you get your degree?
My advice to at least partly get around that mess is get your PE license. Most states add a couple years' experience requirement onto the normal requirement for non-accredited degrees but you can still get one (and for the states where you can't, you might be able to be licensed by comity after you get your license in a different state). At that point, employers may look past the nature of your degree, since the state licensing board has decided to look past it as well.
Also, as an alumnus, you should raise hell with your undergrad institution and tell them what a tough time you're having. If they get accredited, it might not help you much but it would help others. I seriously don't understand why any reputable engineering program wouldn't get ABET accreditation. (But yet the two non-OSU welding engineering programs I know of are plenty reputable.)
Government entities are a tough nut to crack. People doing the hiring have their hands tied by the kind of regulations you describe. I do have one friend who *almost* didn't get a job when she was moving from 3rd-party contractor to NASA because her degree was in engineering technology rather than engineering, but somehow the people hiring her managed to make it work. (But she had serious connections within NASA and many, many years as a full-time contractor to NASA.)
Hg
Hgtx it's exactly as you describe. My degree is "Welding Engineering Technology" and for this NASA won't hire me. Mind you I do work for another government research lab, and Ironically so a good portion of my job is for directly supplied to nasa. In my Interview they made no mention of the validity of my WE degree as I think they were struggling to find anyone at all, and my resume is pretty solid.
now here's the thing. In my honest opinion ABET accreditation is HARMFUL to a welding engineering program. In order to get abet accreditation a certain percentage of your faculty has to have a PHD in the core subject and you're required to maintain a certain number of hours in "core classes" Math and science particularily.
Addressing the first issue, how many of you can name a PHD in Welding engineering? there's how many total in the nation? Most colleges couldn't afford to attract and hire a PHD in WE and you have to ask yourself why most of them aren't out in the field making money. Ohio state remains the only program in the nation that has graduate level WE program and if I remember correctly I don't think they certify more than 1 or 2 PHD candidates a year. The field is almost empty, and just because someone has a PHD in WE doesn't mean they have the skills or desire to teach.
Now the second issue and the primary reason my former school does not want ABET accreditation is that if you add up all the credit hours needed to maintain the accreditation you have to pull a lot of credits from somewhere which means killing all the practical classes. PCT was already credit heavy If I remember correctly about 135 credits to satisfy a B.S (which is 120 min) To go to accreditation we would of had to cut or trim all our NDT class work, and perhaps 20-30 credits of welding classes so that we could go all the way up to calc 4, Chem 2, english 2 etc. But out in industry how many times are WE's asked to do calculus? especially high level calculus? I can only think of one occasion 2 occasions I ever did any and both of the times it was for statistical process control. Welders are very quick to bemoan how welding engineers have no practical experience, can't solve shop floor issues and some wouldn't know which end of a gas torch to point at the metal. ABET accredidation creates a severe mismatch in what the average industry ASKS of an entry level WE and what a school can deliver. I think I did slightly better as I worked as welder to pay my way through college, so I was familiar with working in production before I became an engineer. There are a few certain technical positions that would benefit someone who has a highly rigorous traditional engineering degree. But in my experience the vast majority of WE jobs are looking for people who can solve welding related production issues or facilitate welding in their production shops.
This problem is not just particular to WE though. A lot of employers are starting to relook at entry level engineering degrees and criteria, the way the top universities structure their curriculum. there's a very big mismatch between what they teach and expect students to do, and what most entry level engineering positions require.
For my own personal situation I plan on going on and getting my masters in another technical field as having a Masters in W.E would over train me right out of the job market. Also once I'm about 5 years into my field and if I can land a masters should be pretty hire-able regardless. I like my job though and the opprotunities it affords so I don't plan on sprinting out the door the first chance I get.
what do you do when the so called engineer can't figure out the min wall thickness for a certain pressure pipe'
This guy is scary sch10 304l for a 1400 psi line . 4" socket welds to B31.3 code which is 2" max on socket welds
He aske me today whart a backup ring was for lol lol
Sadly, I've seen this a number of times. A new, inexperienced engineer gets "designated" as the welding engineer and is expected to learn it on his own. If he has a degree, it is probably not in welding or metallurgy and he is out of his element. Kind of like being the floor sweeper, then being "designated" as a x-ray welder. I doubt it was his choice to be the welding engineer, so help steer him in the right direction if you can. Some companies are victims of their own ignorance.
No offense intended to floor sweepers!
many moons ago, I actually was a night janitor at a university, I liked the gig. it was quite and relaxing job and I was just cleaning up rather clean lecture rooms. I am an "x ray quality" welder now.
Also as punishment or if someone called in sick, we used to make them sit on one of those mobile floor sweepers and clean the whole factory floor. That way we didn't have to pay a janitor and no one could really call in sick unless they wanted floor duty.
By 803056 
Date 05-26-2010 18:15
Edited 05-26-2010 18:36
Engineers are humans too. There are good ones and there are some that aren't so good. There are some with egos that prevent them from asking for other people’s opinions and there are those that ask for help when venturing into unfamiliar territory.
There are two ways to acquire an education. There is the slow and rocky path followed by those that attend the "School of Hard Knocks" and there are those that sit in a classroom and study the books. The ideal way would be to combine the two systems together, but most people are unwilling to invest the time or the money to take that route. The fact is that even after acquiring a degree, it is the beginning of the education process, not the end. Many senior engineers will agree that it takes about five years of experience before a young newly minted engineer is ready to face the world on his/her own. The learning process continues and over time the youngster acquires "practical experience.” The type of practical experience depends on the company and the nature of the work he/she is assigned to.
Some employers recognize the need to expose the new engineer to a variety of projects and they have a system in place to rotate the youngster through the different departments or in some cases, different plants. Other companies, usually the smaller concerns, do not have the time or the money to invest in providing the work experience the young engineer really needs, but instead places him where the immediate need is the greatest, thereby limiting the breadth of the young engineer's training.
It has been noted that there are few colleges or universities that offer a degree in welding engineering. As for Ohio State University, I have heard rumblings that that program is in question. That means the young engineer has to learn about welding the same way most welders do. On-the-job-training. The “School of Hard Knocks” is one of the few options available to provide practical knowledge about welding. It is interesting to note how many engineers with their P.E. attend the CWI courses offered by AWS. It is one of the few courses available that teaches some of the fundamental principles of welding technology. ASME has a three-day course call Practical Welding Technology that targets engineers. Both courses are fast paced to say the least and both of them cover a lot of information in a very short time frame. While either course is a good beginning, most engineers have to learn about welding the hard way.
There is a lot of information the engineer can be learn by talking with experienced welders. Most welders have encountered the engineer that thought he "knew it all" and refused to ask for advice. The welders are all too happy to let the "elitist" engineer crash and burn and the engineer’s career with the company is often short lived.
Most of the welders I have worked with are more than receptive to learning more about their profession if the engineer is willing to share his knowledge with them. A little give and take goes a long ways in resolving production problems that are design related.
I have encountered many of the problems mentioned in this thread. My degrees are not the traditional “engineering degree.” So far that has not been a major career killer. In fact, it probably worked in my favor in many respects. After all, I do not think I am cut out to be a company man. I like variety and I have not encountered too many companies that provide the varied experiences I encounter with my practice nor the independence I am accustom to.
Life is good.
Best regards - Al
