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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / AWS Certified Welding Supervisor, CWS
- - By TimGary (****) Date 05-07-2014 11:23
I'm wondering if anyone is utilizing the AWS CWS program and could offer an educated opinion about it?

Thanks,
Tim Gary
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-07-2014 11:50 Edited 05-07-2014 11:53
I think in many ways the body of knowledge for the CWS designation is much superior to the CWI.  This is especially true in a manufacturing environment or a scenerio that includes, leads, managers, and training engineers who are not welding specialists.

Here are some topics covered in depth in the "Certified Welding Supervisor Manual"

Management systems
Requirments of a weld
Each of the big 4 processes
Metalurgy
Symbols
Instruction
Inspection
Welding Economics and Variables
Application of Standards
Safety
Reporting and Records

I have NOT taken the seminar or sat for the exam...  But I have for many years studied the work of Jack Barckhoff, the author of Total Weld Management and most of the CWS Manual.   I applied it to my lessons as a teacher and used in much greater depth now in my role of engineer.

You will see similarities between this work and the "Lincoln Procedures Handbook" because Jack did much of the foundation work for the sections on Quality control, Welding Costs and Special Applications.

I think a person with mastry of the CWS body of knowledge is can be far more effective in making money for himself or his company than a person with CWI training alone.

I think it's the best educational tool that AWS currently is involved in.

Edit:
Having said that, very few people in industry respect the CWS designation or require it for anything...  Which is currently fine by me..  I think of it as priceless knowledge that is virtually free, I can leverage to crush our competition by being excellent ourselves.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 05-07-2014 12:41
Thanks Lawrence, excellent information, as always.

I've been considering recommending the CWS program for the Weld Supervisors in our facilities.
As I don't feel like I know enough about to fully make that recommendation, I've signed myself up for the July seminar and exam in Minneapolis.
I'm ordering the reference materials today, and am curious to learn any study recommendations from those who have taken this exam, as well as general opinions.

Thanks again,
Tim Gary
Parent - By cddolan74 (**) Date 05-07-2014 15:23
Tim,
I believe the course is worth the companies investment. I rcvd the certification 5 yrs ago. havnt seen any reason to keep up with the certification.  But find myself always refering back to what I learned in this course. overall very benificial
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 05-08-2014 04:42
Tim
Lawrence, quotes the bible of welding
the lincoln handbook is the best
always have it, always use it
jeez, now I have done promos for lincoln and stoody this week:eek:
I am done posting:wink::eek::lol:
Kent
Parent - - By vagabond (***) Date 05-07-2014 21:00
The CWS Manual sounds like a book I need.  I have used Total Welding Management a lot.  Great resource.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-08-2014 12:01
The CWS manual is a training tool to complement "Total Weld Management"

The theme of both books is exactly the same.

The CWS Manual just expands the scope to talk about process, technique in great detail for operators, causes and corrections.

It breaks down (and illustrates) penetration profiles of the different processes and how shield gas combinations effect the arc, the puddle and the penetration profile.

Total Weld Management will make you a Believer.......... CWS Manual will be your best tool to teach yourself and your staff how to SUSTAIN the golden nuggets within TWM.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 05-09-2014 00:09
Nice.
Sounding good.
Thanks all for the input.
I'll be sure to share an assessment of the process.
...I just hope I pass the test... I'll never live it down if I don't...

Tim
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 05-09-2014 10:38
Nothing like a little fear to motivate you!
Tyrone
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 05-13-2014 02:58
Yeah, I appreciate a good "crush the competition" procedure as well, Lawrence. I'm all about honest commerce in a friendly may the best man win environment.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 07-22-2014 13:38 Edited 07-22-2014 14:36
So... I attended the AWS CWS seminar last week, followed by the Saturday exam.
My main purpose for attending was to assess the program and determine is validity as a requirement for the welding Supervisors in our fairly large high production manufacturing facilities. This is because our Supervisors are very good at employing "Lean" concepts in large volumes of quality product out the door, but I know we are leaving a lot of money on the table due to overwelding in both design and practice, as well as under utilization of high deposition procedures.
All in all, the CWS program is mainly designed to help with just what I described above, but as far as the programs validity to fit our needs, I can only give it a 5 out of 10 score, in it's current format.

Pros -
     -Exposure to the concepts of the "Total Welding Management" philosophy was enlightening.
     -I appreciated the break down of GMAW Spray transfer into two categories, "Spray" and "Dip Spray" as they are considerably different and I had never had this explained     in this manner.
     -The detail in which the mathematical process and formulae for determining weld volumes, deposition rates, arc time vs non arc time and operational efficiency factors was   extremely useful.
     -I can see where the information put forth about variances in basic processes (SMAW, GMAW, FCAW, MCAW, GTAW, OFC, CAC, PT, MT, UT, RT) would be useful to those    not already familiar with them, as far as process selection is concerned.
     -Information about welding symbology and the importance of good production reporting.
     -The seminar instructor was knowledgeable, professional, respectable.
     -Networking and learning from other professionals in the field (Seminar Attendees) is always good.

Cons -
     -The entire first day of the seminar detailed the Barckhoff "Total Welding Management" system, which was educational to me, but considering the fact that this information   is not included in the CWS "Body of Knowledge", proscribed self study materials or in the certification exam, it felt like more of a Barckhoff Welding Management sales pitch rather than an AWS CWS component.
     -The second half of the last seminar day, which I feel would have been better spent on review / Q&A, was instead a definite high pressure sales pitch from Jack Barckhoff.
     -The only materials from the CWS detaied self study materials that were covered in the seminar was the Certification Manual for Welding Supervisors - CMWS:2005, which    was compressed to make time for the Barckhoff sales pitches.
     -There was no seminar review of the other detailed self study materials, especially the "Safety in Welding, Cutting and Allied Processes" - ANSI Z49.1:2005, and "Economics of Welding and Cutting" - ARE-12, which was disapointing as there were pertinent exam questions from these materials.
     -There was no information delivered either in the study materials or the seminar, concerning topics I see as key to the role of a Welding Supervisor, such as control of parts  flow, materials traceability, weld mapping, process tips and techniques toward the prevention of weld defects, auditing, Quality Systems and Registrars, report formatting, employee hiring / firing / training / mentoring techniques, rework / finishing techniques, drawings / prints interpretation and troubleshooting, stacked tolerances, dealing with management functionaries who have little to no welding fabrication knowledge, etc.
     -There is no mention in the entire CWS system of GMAW-Pulse welding, with the exception of a few extra power point slides the instructor threw in for good measure.
     -The Certification Manual for Welding Supervisors is a reflection of pre 1980's technology, with no inclusion of robotics, lasers or other advanced processes, and is rife with errors.
     -The entire program is carbon steel based with very little to no mention of other materials.
     -There was a contradiction in the technique for formulating fillet weld volumes between that in the Certification manual as detailed by the Instructor and in the proscribed    self study material "Economics of Welding and Cutting" in which the latter included allowances for convexity and the former did not. On the exam, there was an example given for a large fillet welding job in which several questions were chained too. I answered the questions based on the formulas explained in the seminar. If AWS chooses to include convexity in determining the correct exam answers, and I have failed the exam as a result, I'm going to be one pissed off individual.
     - The exam was not very challenging.
     -There was no seminar or Certification Manual information for determining total weld costs including contributing factors such as gasses, utilities, equipment, consumables,   finishing, rework. There were mentions of these factors in the "Economics of Welding and Cutting" self study material, which again, was not reviewed in the seminar.

So, in conclusion, typing this out has helped me make up my mind that I need to explore other alternatives toward enhancing our Supervisory training and develop my own certification program.

AWS, if you're listening, your CWS program is a highly valuable concept that will greatly benefit the industry, however, it is in dire need of an overhaul.

Tim Gary
AWS SCWI
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-22-2014 14:31 Edited 07-22-2014 14:36
Great detail in your review Tim. Thank you.

I like TWM (the book)... I like the CWS Manual and I like the Lincoln Procedure Handbook Chapter 12, and have depended on them for years...  I think most of the CWS material flows from those three....  Although I'm surprised the TWM data is not tested as you observed.

The thing I was hoping to get from the Seminar (I've not taken it yet) was assistance in training and support at the higher levels of the 4 critical functions.    TWM gives much lip-service to the absolute need of DESIGN ENGINEERING and MANUFACTURING ENGINEERING to be trained to understand their real roles in support of the revenue generators "the welders." 

We have had some outside *help*  with "Lean Manufacturing" principles and I am totally on board with the vast majority of it... I also think TWM relates very well here (in an 80's paradigm as you pointed out, but it works so I don't care.. some things are timeless).     For me TWM or Lean is all about roles, and pathways to get things accomplished without delay...

Most waste can be eliminated without capital spending!  I'll say that twice for emphasis.  Most waste can be eliminated without capital spending!   But this is only true if all the Critical Functions know their roles and accept them without throwing problems over the fence, if you know what I mean :)

I was really hoping that the things "held back" in the TWM book would have been unpacked in the costly seminar.  This makes me sad; when you report that at the seminar that you are paying top dollar for, you also feel like you are being given a sales pitch to hire a consultant to solve the problems the seminar is supposed to address !    Bad bad bad.

Offer two levels of seminar... But don't hold back for the consultant gig......  The materials should have EVERYTHING... And the consultants should be for operations that are starting without any ability to move forward with the materials provided.

Tim,  maybe you and I should get ourselves onto a CWS subcommittee.... I have stepped back on committee work for the last few years... But,  I am absolutely convinced down to my bones that Jack's work is exactly what American Manufacturing needs... And maybe a Manufacturing Management sub topic needs to be introduced.......
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 07-22-2014 16:07
Great points Lawrence.

"The thing I was hoping to get from the Seminar (I've not taken it yet) was assistance in training and support at the higher levels of the 4 critical functions.    TWM gives much lip-service to the absolute need of DESIGN ENGINEERING and MANUFACTURING ENGINEERING to be trained to understand their real roles in support of the revenue generators "the welders."

I agree that's where you need to start to maximize waste reduction potential, but there's no support for that in the CWS seminar/exam other than the mention that it needs to be done.

"Most waste can be eliminated without capital spending!  I'll say that twice for emphasis.  Most waste can be eliminated without capital spending!   But this is only true if all the Critical Functions know their roles and accept them without throwing problems over the fence, if you know what I mean :)"



Amen Brother. I'm always having to point out that if we're to demand absolute quality from our workers, we first need to engineer the ability for absolute quality into the product.

"Tim,  maybe you and I should get ourselves onto a CWS subcommittee.... I have stepped back on committee work for the last few years... But,  I am absolutely convinced down to my bones that Jack's work is exactly what American Manufacturing needs... And maybe a Manufacturing Management sub topic needs to be introduced....... "


I hear you. I've recently agreed to membership in the D14 sub-committe and have been invited to the D1. I don't think I can do both, and definately not all 3, but I would love to be helpful, because I believe in the premise of the program.
I think the program should be updated and sub-divided into endorsements for Production, Construction and Piping/Vessels categories.
I like the TWM system as well. The only problems I have with it are the absolute exclusion of other important functions such as painting and assembly.

Tim
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-22-2014 16:53
Great information guys.  As the AZ Section Chair and Certification Committee Chairman I get asked lots of questions about various certifications and seminars and their value.  I had wanted to go to this one myself but am not sure about the expense and time now. 

BTW, Tim, send your notes from here to the Education Dept.  It used to be Martica but I think it has changed.  I also included David Hernandez in my complaint about a seminar at FabTech a couple of years ago that did not even come close to reaching it's marketing scope of results.  Then, I also included Ross since he is over marketing.  Get anyone even close in on the discussion and there may be changes.

Now, that will work even better if you have email addresses from the seminar and get some of the others who attended with you to say the same thing.  I had a group of about 6 that all sent letters in their own words about how disappointed they were in the final outcome of the seminar we took.  Ours was the one on 'The How's and Why's of Welding Procedures'.  It was changed considerably the second year.  Still not quite what I thought the end result should have been but much better. 

It does pay to sound off but go straight to the sources.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 07-23-2014 03:26 Edited 07-23-2014 03:32
they should just issue mine automatically!   LOL

BUT seriously no joke.....I had a Welding engineer position offered to me by an "Aerospace" company strictly on my credentials verified ......some kind of grandfathering thing which surely was a company program.  I think the title was a joke but I certainly met requirements....ahhh California you just cannot attract REAL talent like you use to be able to!   Not tooting my horn folks I am just saying that the budget "we can get by" bs is starting to get a THICKE.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 07-23-2014 12:54
Thanks Brent, have done.

Tim
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-23-2014 15:45
Thank you for the honest review and the willingness to make a difference.  Hopefully they will hear and make at least some modifications to the program.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 07-23-2014 20:30
Good News!
I heard back from Mr. John Gayler, Managing Director, Certification, who assured me that the CWS program is under revision with launch date October of this year.

Tim
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-23-2014 22:35
That matches with some other info we heard at the District Conferences last month.

Seems AWS is changing many things.  The website is getting an upgrade.  There should be a new logo revealed this fall.  Changes to items in the Education Dept. 

Keep your eyes open and pray that they are changes for the better.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / AWS Certified Welding Supervisor, CWS

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