Bill,
Go up to the 'Search' function button along the top bar here for 'Wormelli'.
You will see previous discussions on the topic.
Now, as to some things I said, my stance has always been that AWS is the premier inspector certification organization but I know I did not communicate my own stand as well as I should have plus had some misunderstanding about exactly who they were and what they did.
So, just know, there are many "Certified Welding Inspectors" who are NOT AWS/CWI's. ICC certifies welding inspectors, Special Inspector (SI)/Welding and/or Bolting. ASNT certifies welding inspectors, ASNT VT Level II. API ceritifies welding inspectors, API 570 I believe and others. And so on.
The question is, are they claiming to be AWS/CWI's and do they use a stamp that associates them with that particular program.
All of these others are recognized and are of use depending upon the part of the industry one is involved in. Power plants and others like the ASNT VT cert. Pipelines will often use Wormelli grads.
Edit: Having taken the class hours and about to take tests for ASNT VT I am impressed with many aspects of their program that for my purposes enhances my knowledge to apply AWS inspections criteria. Many things that aren't included for our information in the AWS seminar and exam. Then, The ICC also added some things from the International Building Codes that directly apply to our everyday work as Special Inspectors (if you are at all involved in that). The City of LA stressed even more items from D1.3 and D1.4 wanting to make sure D1.1 was not your only point of interest and expertise. As well as D1.8 and the AISC manuals.
AWS/CWI's are not always the people that are looked for. Many of them could not pass the AWS/CWI exam. BUT, many of us could not pass their exam. In both cases, at least not without some class room training. They are different and for good reason. Different codes and applications. And in many cases differing inspector responsibilities and customer expectations of their ability.
That is not to say that having both certifications is not a benefit. I would think it would be. I have so many to enhance my abilities and knowledge. It is of some benefit in enhancing the resume as well but that should not be one's primary goal. The ability to do the job to the best possible outcome with the public safety and interest in mind is the goal.
Just my two tin pennies worth.
He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent
API does not qualify or certify welding inspector. They have the 577 Welding certification which covers welding and metallurgy but is NOT for weld inspection. And you are required to have a 510, 570, or 653 certification to qualify to set for the test. If you can pass the closed book portion of the AWS CWI test you should have no problem.
I have posted a link to API for the new pipeline inspector certification. But again, this will NOT be a welding inspection certification.
John puts on a good class. If you attend it you will come away with good knowledge and it can qualify as training for inspection under 1104 IF the pipeline company approves it.
But it is not a nationally recognized certification.
Thank you for the clarification in how their systems work.
My main point would still be that many probably consider themselves 'certified inspectors' even if the course doesn't call it that because we know how easy it is for people to either intentionally or unintentionally misrepresent themselves and/or use wrong words in representing themselves even when trying to be honest. And there are many venues out there that qualify people to do various inspections even without a program like AWS/CWI because under a good many codes you don't have to be an AWS/CWI to be a QC person. And doubly so if you work for or are hired by an engineer or the customer to keep track of a job for them as their QA.
Can you tell us, sure you can, who actually certifies you to 510, 570, or 653? Does API do that but it just isn't an actual inspector certification? More like AWS's Endorsements that just says you know your way around a particular code? I haven't had need to look it up and am just a little confused by the chain in your post that they have a pipeline inspector certification that is not a welding inspection certification. I would think they would go together.
Thanks for your input. Again, the reason this forum is so great a resource. Good information even if it doesn't apply to some of us much of the time.
He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent
Brent
When you're dealing with the API certification, the term "Inspector" means certified in accordance with the provisions of API 510 / 653 / 570.
ASNT SNT-TC-1A, CP-189, and AWS CWI in API referred to as "Examiners".
e.g. The inspector is responsible to the owner/user to assure that the inspection, NDE, and pressure testing activities meet API 510 requirements. The inspector shall be directly involved in the inspection activities, which in most cases will require field activities to ensure that procedures are followed, but may be assisted in performing inspections by other properly trained and qualified individuals, who are not inspectors e.g. examiners and operating personnel. However, all NDE results must be evaluated and accepted by the inspector.
Between you and Big K I am getting new insight into the arena of some of my 'inspector' brethren that I didn't understand before. The differences between organizations and their methods can be confusing to those in similar but not identical fields when same/similar terminology is used to express different applications in responsibility, training, education, and examination and ultimately on the job procedures.
After the first of the discussions a couple of years ago I learned more about many organizations but I think I am still way down in the pond when it comes to really understanding all the various aspects of this trade.
It is confusing enough when in one code you have Contractor's Inspector, Verification Inspector, Special Inspector, and just Inspector. Then the lack of understanding, because of a lack of study, of the difference between QC and QA. Now we add all these other organizations with their terminology and we see why so many who are not inspectors have a problem knowing who is who and what they do.
Thanks Joey. BTW, you are another contributor I really appreciate on this forum. Big K as well. You guys add great input.
He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent
Oh, remember, 'certification' is a legal term with broader application than our limited world. If your employer fills out what could become a legal document stating your are qualified to do the work and then signs it 'certifying' that all information is correct and applicable then they have 'certified' you.
The employer's signature at the bottom of the Welder's Qualification Record 'Certifies' that all information is correct and the welder is 'certified' accordingly. Not by what we did witnessing and even conducting the test, but by what he swears to in the signing of the document.
Brent
A good friend and colleague of mine says that;
1) It is recognized in the Oilfield (but not respected by many with a CWI or API certs)
2) Because of "A" above, it can get "your foot in the door".
3) I personally would pass on it and get a universally recognized cert.
Many, many years ago I attended a welding roundtable consisting of persons in the gas transportation and distribution industry responsible for welder qualifications and welding inspection. The CPWI "certification" did come up during the meeting. Mr. Wormeli had presented his training to a company and some of their personnel involved with welding inspection and several engineers. One of these attendees was attending the roundtable. All had taken the exam, unmonitored, and all had passed, even those who had no prior knowledge of welding. pretty good training, huh. The individual had told how good the presentation was and even had great accolades on how Mr. Wormeli had worked on the Trans-Alaskan Pipeline Project. I did have some knowledge of the TAPS project and some of the problems that were discovered on the project. At least one person committed suicide and I understand several actually went to prison over falsification of records. My comment was that "I worked at Three Mile Island but it's not something I brag about".
It probably is a very good program, I've never been. Only a couple of comments I have about the program. One, anyone can go regardless of background. Recently an engineer that I know was sent by his company. He had very little welding background, he did know if you didn't put the ground on, an arc wouldn't form. He commented on how liberal the exam was in that you could take the test at night in the motel room and turn it in the next day or mail it in if you couldn't be there the next day. So much for monitoring. Second, unless it has changed and if it hasn't Mr. Wormeli is missing a great revenue generator, the "certification" never expires, not even a follow up eye exam.
A rumor I heard several years ago was that there was some legal action, a Cease and Desist order, by the AWS because the CPWI stamp issued was nearly identical to the AWS CWI stamp so the CPWI stamp had to be redesigned a little.
I guess you can make your choice between a Nationally recognized program or Brand X. "You pays your money and you takes your chances".
Man, this is a good forum.
Posting under one heading is sufficient.
Al
oh sorry. not sure what i did there. how do I delete this post/thread?
Bill,
In your original post, I didn't see a referenced code or standard. I would think that in order to perform inspection, one must be certified to the applicable code or standard. So I did a little research and found an article on the Fabricator.com that briefly mentioned this under "Changing Job Landscape"...
"Most of the pipe shops have their own in-house inspectors. I recently learned that a person may be certified as a pipe welding inspector by an entity in Burton Texas—the National Welding Inspection School. I received a resume from someone identifying himself as a “certified pipeline welding inspector” (CPWI). The certification doesn’t seem to be linked to any major code or standard, such as API, ASME, or AWS, but he does have a registration number listed. This person has worked for a very prominent gas company in the northern part of our state, so it must not be a bogus certification. In general, the pipe welds require radiography, which is not something we do."
Here's the link...
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/arcwelding/what-does-a-certified-welding-inspector-do-in-a-small-mostly-rural-stater
Have taken the class - very informative. I am also a CWI. But no one should be claiming to be a CWI from that program. The certificate is for "Certified Pipeline Welding Inspector" - CPWI.
Its like everything else - the certification is only valuable to a co. or contractor who recognizes it. Many large cos. send their people there for training. Definitely has value. But not the same level as a AWS CWI for any means.
Most responses are under the same thread by a different title in the 'Certification and Qualification' section. The other thread is: What the heck is NWIS?
I have asked the mods to move and integrate this one into that one and it would be helpful if all other responses went to there to make following this simple.
I'm into decently and in order according to the KISS principle (you know: Keep It Simple cause I'm Stupid).
Brent
Anyone can certify anyone to do anything. The validity of the certification is based upon the controls put in place by the organization certifying. The suitability of the controls put in place are validated by the performance of the individuals who have certified in accordance with that system.
A certified welding inspector is not a trademarked term as far as I know. An American Welding Society Certified Welding Inspector is.
If a certifying organizations system is auditable and suitable for the tasks/abilities being certified, then what is to say they are not efficient.
I have seen some things that make me go "hmmmm" when dealing with individuals who have certified in accordance with one of the largest welding inspector certification schemes in the world!
Just of course my opinion and not based upon me being "certified" to offer up opinions on such matters.
I think websters should add the following definition to the term certified. "One of the most abused terms in the welding industry usually signifying someone has done something witnessed or reviewed by somebody, usually for some amount of money, supported by some system deemed valid by some people"
Have a great day.
Gerald Austin
Interesting phraseology and point taken Gerald.
Brent
By dbigkahunna 
Date 09-01-2014 16:05
Edited 09-01-2014 16:26
As regulations are getting stricter and enforcement of those regulations taking place one thing the regulators are looking closely at how these certifications are given. I recently took a course to qualify me to inspect fiberglass aboveground storage tank. The reason this certification is necessary is because EPA requires the inspection of fiberglass AST's and the inspectors have to be qualified to a standard.
If you have a fiberglass tank and it has been inspected and EPA comes around for a SPCC inspection, you as the tank owner have to be able to provide documentation the person doing the inspection is qualified. I have been doing fiberglass tank inspections for over 2 years. But 653 and STI SP001 does not have any thing about FG tanks. After attending the course and taking the test I learned there were some gaping holes in how I had been doing my inspections.
In 2007 a inspection standard for fiberglass tanks was developed by Fiberglass Tank and Pipe Institute. This was a inspection standard developed by a organization utilizing industry accepted practices. Recently EPA has been hitting owners on inspection of fiberglass and plastic tanks. FTPI was dusted off and is being used and accepted as a recognized standard for inspection. To qualify for the test, you have to meet minimum education, inspection experience, pass a vision test and pass a written test.
Some may say this is BS and they do not have to go through all this as they have the background an experience so they do not need the certification. If you can provide the documentation for you experience and the end user is willing to keep up with that documentation, then EPA MAY allow it.
But if they don't the owner could be facing some stiff fines.
That is where API is coming from with their new Pipeline Inspector certification. To qualify to set for the test you are required to meet minimum education, work experience and pass the test. Now this is not a pipeline welding inspector certification. That still falls to the pipeline owner to determine what that level of experience and education is. I do not see API ever having a welding inspector certification. I see the pipeline certification allowing the certificate holder having the 577 certification and it specifically states it is not a welding inspection certification. This certification is to be sure pipeline inspectors have a general pipeline construction knowledge. Are there pipeline inspectors who will qualify but are poor inspectors and excellent inspectors who will not either pass the test or take it?
Sure.
But a certification is a driving license. It only qualifies the holder has at some point met a minimum level of expertise. Some get better and some never get better and others are jut bad drivers. But the state keeps passing them out as that is the only way to have order.
Along the lines of what Brent has said; AWS publishes to qualification documents that address the method and means of qualifying and certifying the welding inspector. B5.1 is the qualification document used as the basis of qualifying the individual and QC as the certification document. The two documents are "sister" documents meaning they are used together and are related.
B5.2 is for qualifying and certifying in-house welding inspectors or to use the same terminology, welding inspection specialist. It is intended to provide the employer with a method of organizing an in-house program of training, qualifying, and certifying their employees. That being said, they can also use AWS B5.1 as the basis of qualifying their employees.
It all boils down to what meets your needs. If the certification is recognized and accepted by the customer, it is good enough. If it isn't recognized by the customer, it has little value.
The CWI has value because it is recognized by many organizations, both nationally and internationally. It is recognized as central certification (third party) that can be recognized by different employers without having to pass additional tests with each new employer.
In-house certifications are only valid while the individual is employed by the company that issued the certification. The certification is not valid when the individual goes to work for a different employer.
Best regards - Al
