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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / A36 not heat treatable?
- - By Lewis87 (*) Date 10-10-2014 18:59
I've been told that A36 isn't heat treatable. If that's true could someone explain why that is, with some metallurgical details? Thank you.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-10-2014 19:14
Down and dirty.

A36 is low carbon (comparatively) because of this precipitation hardening is not going to happen..  Untempered martensite is possible (although uncommon) as exemplified by arc strikes, where rapid quenching can leave a small embrittled area.

It can also be carburized (case hardened)   There are a million search links that give various techniques to do this with water, oil and air.

Also look up Iron Carbon diagram.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 10-10-2014 20:08
Yes and no.
Many procedures will require preheat on thicker material.
But no, you will not quench and temper a piece of A36 and expect to get a Wilkinson Sword cutting edge and toughness.
Because of what Lawrence said.
Parent - - By S J (**) Date 10-10-2014 21:51
Perhaps hardenability depends on the application.

I am by no means an expert regarding this subject, but just what kind of iron did our blacksmith ancestors work?

Hardness is also determined by the critical cooling rate - as well as the carbon content.  An oil quench will produce greater hardness than a water quench in some instances.

The Jominy end quench is one test for bar specimens that might provide some insight; and, if increased hardness does result, is the increase in hardness due to the increased cooling capacity of oil, or migration of carbon into the bar surface?  My suspicion is that it is only surface hardness.

Relative to the OP, this is perhaps not "heat treating" in the most accurate sense of the word.  I might be talking about surface hardness.
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 10-10-2014 22:13 Edited 10-10-2014 22:16
maybe this attached formula for quenching will help. Basically the formula breaks up the steam jacket that forms around A36 when it is quenched in a water solution. This formula breaks up the steam jacket which allows quenching and hardening.
Attachment: DEEPHARDENINGSOLUTION.doc (49k)
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-11-2014 00:26 Edited 10-11-2014 00:48
Hardenability is the property of steel that determines the depth and distribution of hardness induced by quenching from the austenitizing temperature... Hardenability should not be confused with hardness as such or with maximum hardness... Hardness is a measure of the ability of a metal to resist penetration as determined by any one of a number of standard tests (Brinell, Rockwell, Vickers, etc)... The maximum attainable hardness of any steel depends solely on carbon content and is not significantly affected by alloy content... Maximum hardness is realized only when the cooling rate in quenching is rapid enough to ensure full transformation to martensite... The as-quenched surface hardness of a steel part is dependent on carbon content and cooling rate, but the depth to which a certain hardness level is maintained with given quenching conditions is a function of its hardenability...

Hardenability is largely determined by the percentage of alloying elements in the steel; however, austenite grain size, time and temperature during austenitizing, and prior microstructure also significantly affect the hardness depth... Steel’s versatility is due to its response to thermal treatment... Although most steel products are used in the as-rolled, or un-heat-treated condition, thermal treatment greatly increases the number of properties that can be obtained, because at certain “critical temperatures” iron changes from one type of crystal structure to another... This structural change, known as an allotropic transformation, is spontaneous and, reversible and can be made to occur by simply changing the temperature of the metal... In steel, the transformation in crystal structure occurs over a range of temperatures, bounded by lower and upper critical points... When heated, most carbon and low–alloy steels have a critical temperature range between 1300 and 1600 degrees F... Steel above this temperature, but below the melting range, has a crystalline structure known as austenite, in which the carbon and alloying elements are dissolved in a solid solution...

Below this critical range, the crystal structure changes to a phase known as ferrite, which is capable of maintaining only a very small percentage of carbon in solid solution... The remaining carbon exists in the form of carbides, which are compounds of carbon and iron and certain of the other alloying elements... Depending primarily on cooling rate, the carbides may be present as thin plates alternating with the ferrite (pearlite); as spheroidal globular particles at ferrite grain boundaries or dispersed throughout the ferrite; or as a uniform distribution of extremely fine particles throughout a “ferrite-like” phase, which has an acicular (needlelike) appearance, named martensite...

In some of the highly alloyed stainless steels the addition of certain elements stabilizes the austenite structure so that it persists even at very low temperatures (austenitic grades)... Other alloying elements can prevent the formation of austenite entirely up to the melting point (ferritic grades)... Fundamentally, all steel heat treatments are intended to either harden or soften the metal... They involve one or a series of operations in which the solid metal is heated and cooled under specified conditions to develop a required structure and properties... The choice of quenching media is often a critical factor in the selection of steel of the proper hardenability for a particular application... Quenching severity can be varied by selection of quenching medium, agitation control, and additives that improve the cooling capability of the quenchant...

Increasing the quenching severity permits the use of less expensive steels of lower hardenability; however, consideration must also be given to the amount of distortion that can be tolerated and the susceptibility to quench cracking... In general, the more severe the quenchant and the less symmetrical the part being quenched, the greater are the size and shape changes that result from quenching and the greater is the risk of quench cracking... Consequently, although water quenching is less costly than oil quenching, and water quenching steels are less expensive than those requiring oil quenching, it is important to know that the parts being hardened can withstand the resulting distortion and the possibility of cracking...

Oil, salt, and synthetic water-polymer quenchants are also used, but they often require steels of higher alloy content and hardenability... A general rule for the selection of steel and quenchant for a particular part is that the steel should have a hardenability not exceeding that required by the severity of the quenchant selected... The carbon content of the steel should also not exceed that required to meet specified hardness and strength, because quench cracking susceptibility increases with carbon content... The choice of quenching media is important in hardening, but another factor is agitation of the quenching bath... The more rapidly the bath is agitated, the more rapidly heat is removed from the steel and the more effective is the quench...

Listed below are some terms commonly associated with the quenching process:

Quenching (rapid cooling) When applicable, the following more specific terms should be used: Direct Quenching, Fog Quenching, Hot Quenching, Interrupted Quenching, Selective Quenching, Slack Quenching, Spray Quenching, and Time Quenching...

Direct Quenching: Quenching carburized parts directly from the carburizing operation...

Fog Quenching: Quenching in a mist...

Hot Quenching: An imprecise term used to cover a variety of quenching procedures in which a quenching medium is maintained at a prescribed temperature above 160 degrees F (71 degrees C)...

Interrupted Quenching: A quenching procedure in which the workpiece is removed from the first quench at a temperature substantially higher than that of the quenchant and is then subjected to a second quenching system having a different cooling rate than the first...

Selective Quenching: Quenching only certain portions of a workpiece...

Slack Quenching: The incomplete hardening of steel due to quenching from the austenitizing temperature at a rate slower than the critical cooling rate for the particular
steel, resulting in the formation of one or more transformation products in addition to martensite...

Spray Quenching: Quenching in a spray of liquid...

Time Quenching: Interrupted quenching in which the duration of holding in the quenching medium is controlled... So, yes you can quench A-36 mild steel, and this is a form of indirect hardening of the surface, but not through the entire depth or thickness of the part which is better explained below...

Now as far as hardening is concerned, there are two types of hardening processes and they are Direct and indirect hardening... Allow me to elaborate further:

Direct Hardening: Through hardening is applied to medium and high carbon parts that possess sufficient carbon content for hardening through the entire depth of the part... The parts are heated and quenched (cooled) to fix the structure of the part in a hardened state... The best recognized through hardened part in the world is a diamond!

Indirect Hardening: Case hardening (or indirect hardening) is applied to low-carbon content steel parts to increase surface hardness... During case hardening, carbon molecules are introduced to the part via solids, liquids, or gases in a process known as carburizing... The molecules penetrate the surface of the part, forming a casement, which is identified by the case depth and surface hardness... More exacting specifications will identify an effective case or a specific hardness requirement at a particular depth... Case hardness cannot be measured effectively using a Rockwell test... Readings must be taken from a cross section of the part using a microhardness tester... Listed below are some terms and processes typically associated with case hardening (also known as indirect hardening):

Carburizing: A process in which carbon is introduced into a solid iron-base alloy by heating above the transformation temperature range while in contact with a carbonaceous material that may be a solid, liquid, or gas... Carburizing is frequently followed by quenching to produce a hardened case...

Case: 1) The surface layer of an iron-base alloy that has been suitably altered in composition and can be made substantially harder than the interior or core by a process of case hardening and, 2) the term case is also used to designate the hardened surface layer of a piece of steel that is large enough to have a distinctly softer core or center...

Finally, The term: Thermal Modification of Steel should also be addressed also... Listed below are some terms and processes that are associated with the thermal modification of
steel for compatibility with manufacturing... Manufacturing of steel frequently causes friction, which introduces heat to the material... Thermal modification of steel diminishes the potential for adverse consequences, such as deformation caused by such heating...

Stress Relieving: A process to reduce internal residual stresses in a metal object by heating the object to a suitable temperature and holding for a proper time at that temperature... This treatment may be applied to relieve stresses induced by casting, quenching, normalizing, machining, cold working, or welding...

Tempering: Heating a quench-hardened or normalized ferrous alloy to a temperature below the transformation range to produce desired changes in properties...

Annealing: A term denoting a treatment, consisting of heating to and holding at a suitable temperature followed by cooling at a suitable rate, used primarily to soften but also to simultaneously produce desired changes in other properties or in micro-structure... The purpose of such changes may be, but is not confined to, improvement of machineability; facilitation of cold working; improvement of mechanical or electrical properties; or increase in stability of dimensions... The time–temperature cycles used vary widely both in maximum temperature attained and in cooling rate employed, depending on the composition of the material, its condition, and the results desired...

Baking: Heating to a low temperature in order to remove entrained gases...

To sum it up, there are more than 30 methods that consists of some form of Thermal Modification and these methods listed below are some of the most commonly used in industry today and they are:

Age Hardening, Annealing, Ausforming, Austempering, Austenitizing, Baking, Carbonitriding, Carburization, Case Hardening, Cyaniding, Decarburization, Flame Hardening,
Full Annealing, hardening, Heat Treating, Martempering, Martensiting, Nitriding, Nitrocarburizing, Normalizing, Preheating, Process Annealing, Quench Hardening, Quenching, Recarburizing, Spheroidizing, Stabilizing Treatment, Stress Relieving, Super cooling, Super heating, Tempering... There's more but, this is all I can remember in my tiny brain.:eek::roll::grin:

Oh I almost forgot to include this brief paper titled: "Introduction to the Selection of Carbon and Low Alloy Steels"

http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/h-3371-15.pdf

Enjoy the read!:lol:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-11-2014 01:24
I was in the middle of a post that would not have been worded nearly as eloquent and complete as Henry's when I got interrupted to do some inspections.  Good thing.  Saved you reading double. 

My main point would have been that it is quite possible that there is miscommunication due to misuse of terminology.  "Heat treat" often gets used to describe every facet of the processes that are in any way associated with heating and hardening. 

Henry has described them but they are: heat treat, annealing, quenching, tempering, stress relieving, carburizing, and their many sub parts. 

It may be that the person who stated your opening query condition of A36 not being able to be heat treated did not actually understand the fullness of the conditions that may affect that ability and thus the truth, or lack thereof, of the statement. 

Everything (? maybe a strong word) can be heat treated.  It depends upon what you wish to accomplish as well as how the audience of the conversation and the professionals performing the work are going to define the term and apply it to what they want done.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 10-11-2014 10:51
I was thinking the same thing Brent.

My original thought of "heat treat" was post weld for stress relieving .  Then thought maybe the OP was refering to the hardening process.

I guess all steels can be heat treated.  It's what you are trying to achieve that's limited by the steel's chemical composition.

Tyrone
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-11-2014 17:39
I think the OP as well as many others, including a basic refresher for all of us, would benefit from this little clip on of all places...Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treating  

Gives some additional and briefer, though not as thorough, information as Henry. 

Lots available to improve one's understanding of just how broad the actual application is to the phrase 'heat treat'. 

There is also the Welding Handbook, Volume 1, 'Welding Science and Technology', AND, Linnert's 'Welding Metallurgy'.  Both available obviously from the AWS bookstore.  Also, the AWS American Welding Online class on Metallurgy. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-12-2014 01:30
Personally, I like the term "Thermal Modification" better than heat treating, or treatment because it encompasses so much more that just preheat, or PWHT.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-12-2014 01:36
What he said!

Al:lol:
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-12-2014 06:19
Here are some more links to articles and references to the various metal heat treatments performed in the many industries that require some sort of thermal modification in order to improve or regain optimal mechanical properties for the metals worked to different methods and processes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Metal_heat_treatments

Here are some dated articles from the Fabricator starting with a series of articles from Bob Capudean, Contributing Writer Back Alley Customs Waterford, MI...
He is a welding instructor at Oakland Community College, Auburn Hills, MI... These articles run as a series so, start with the 1st one on top, and then the next below and so on:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/metalsmaterials/its-all-about-why

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/metalsmaterials/the-structure-of-metal

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/metalsmaterials/phases-structures-and-the-influences-of-temperature

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/metalsmaterials/carbon-content-steel-classifications-and-alloy-steels

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/metalsmaterials/making-steels-stronger

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/metalsmaterials/weldings-effect-on-strengthening-steel

this link form the Fabricator can be use in conjunction with the Wikipedia link Brent posted as it compliments the link with a lettered glossary laid out so one can find definitions faster than just going through the Wikipedia page which can take some time if one isn't used to their format:

http://www.thefabricator.com/glossary/heat-treating

Welding heat treatable steels:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/consumables/welding-heat-treatable-steels

Welders turn to induction heating for preheating, stress relieving:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/cuttingweldprep/welders-turn-to-induction-heating-for-preheating-stress-relieving

Welding chromium-molybdenum steel pipe for power plants
Induction heating becomes an options for preheat, postweld heat treatment:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/tubepipefabrication/welding-chromium-molybdenum-steel-pipe-for-power-plants

Heating P91 boiler pipe:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/tubepipefabrication/heating-p91-boiler-pipe

Quenching and tempering of welded carbon steel tubulars:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/tubepipefabrication/quenching-and-tempering-of-welded-carbon-steel-tubulars

Cryogenic processing—dispelling the myths, mysteries:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/shopmanagement/cryogenic-processingadispelling-the-myths-mysteries

Cryogenics—Putting the Freeze on Wear Answering Some Commonly Asked Questions:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/stamping/cryogenics-putting-the-freeze-on-wear-answering-some-commonly-asked-questions

How to relieve stress in welding. Back to basics on stress relief and reducing distortion:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/testingmeasuring/how-to-relieve-stress-in-welding

The reasons for and misconceptions about preheating steel:

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/metalsmaterials/consumables-corner-the-reasons-for-and-misconceptions-about-preheating-steel

Well, that it for now... Time for lights out! See ya!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-12-2014 14:29
Good point Henry.  Now if I can just adjust 45 years of using one phrase for another one.  Not easy in this 58 year old, set in it's ways brain.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-12-2014 15:22
You know when I rib you as rarely as I do sometimes - it's just joking right? I am now of the opinion that if somebody uses words than I'm used to that it's okay... Heck, I'm grateful that I comprehend what the person is expressing these days... I also turned a new leaf in letting the use of questionable vocabulary, and spelling & grammatical errors by reminding myself that it's not my problem so I zip it as Larry would say - these days... Because I realize that life is too short to be bothered with constantly monitoring everybody's use of the English language especially when I'm not monitoring my own use of it...

Anywho, just be yourself Brent because it's too late to make changes to stuff like that after being the Brent you have always been for so long.:surprised::smile::grin::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-13-2014 00:18
I know Henry, and I was also serious though.  There are things that just make sense when someone brings them to your attention.  I like it.  But, just like so many still using 'MIG' instead of GMAW, it may just take some adapting and time with repeated use to break one habit and form a new one.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 10-17-2014 22:52
heat treatment in my mind always referred to any intentional heat processing. be it annealing, case hardening, quenching etc.  At least that's how it was always generically referred to in the nuclear and aerospace industries.  For welded assemblies the most common ones are some form of PWHT or annealing.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-18-2014 10:51
Heat treatment is a generic metallurgical term that means some form of thermal modification is being carried out on a metal for a variety of purposes so, it's not just for welding.

heat-treat (httrt)
tr.v. heat-treat·ed, heat-treat·ing, heat-treats
To treat (metal, for example) by alternate heating and cooling in order to produce desired characteristics, such as increased hardness; temper.
heat treater n.
heat treatment n.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
heat-treat
vb
1. (Metallurgy) (tr) to apply heat to (a metal or alloy) in one or more temperature cycles to give it desirable properties
heat treatment n

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
heat′-treat`
v.t.
to subject (a metal or alloy) to controlled heating and cooling to improve hardness or other properties.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

Respectfully,
Henry
- By Lewis87 (*) Date 10-13-2014 23:16
Thanks for all of your replies! :grin: This will definitely help me expand my knowledge.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / A36 not heat treatable?

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