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Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Pressure vessel code
- - By Boon (**) Date 01-04-2015 23:35
When a welder is certified according to ASME IX, is he qualified to weld according to "pressure vessel code"?
Or put it another way, what further tests or qualifications, if any, must ASME IX welder undergoes before being allowed to weld on "pressure vessel code" jobs?
What are the types of pressure vessel codes available?

Boon
Parent - By J.W. (*) Date 01-05-2015 14:48
There are few but ASME, Sect.1(boilers), Sect.8 VIII (pressure vessels) and B31.1 & B31.3 (pressure piping) are the most common used. Size of the part ( Diameter), types of Alloys and Tube end welding are a few things you have to watch out for.

Regards
J.W.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-05-2015 16:01
My question include, What part in this this project are you dealing with? What is your interest and what are your responsibilities?

ASME is a rather complex critter to deal with if you do not have experience working with it. Based on your question, I would venture to say you are not familiar with ASME.

Details are very important when working with ASME. The first detail you need to know is which construction code is specified by the customer, i.e., the Owner? The construction code can and does often modify the requirements of how the welding procedure is qualified. To a lesser extent, the construction code may also modify the requirements applicable to welder qualification. Unless you know which construction code you are dealing with, it is much like saying you are working to AWS requirements. The "requirements of AWS' is meaningless unless you specify which AWS welding code or standard you are working with.

No one is born with experience or knowledge. Knowledge can be acquired by study. Experience, well that is a different story. Experience comes with getting your feet wet, stumbling, and falling. It is helpful if you can work with someone that already has experience because they can help you avoid the common mistakes a novice makes. Still, there is an element of learning by doing that is difficult to circumvent.

Back to my earlier comment, we need to know the details before offering meaningful comment.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-05-2015 18:53 Edited 01-05-2015 19:10
Great answer Al... I wonder if boon truly understands what a WPS, or a PQR is? Does he know the p numbers and how they relate... What process, the type of filler metal, etc., etc., etc., Hmmm... A question like that only guarantees that there will be many questions that follow your initial query that need to be answered, or to put it this way... A question of that sort must include enough information to give you an intelligent response... Please give us more information that is relevant to the work in question because it's all in the details.

Here's a list of ASME Codes , Standards and Stamps that Al & J.W. previously mentioned... There's a whole bunch of details besides what's in this list you need to include in you next post in order for any of us to offer any intelligent suggestions so, get as much as you possibly can and then post whatever you found out.

http://www.nationalboard.org/SiteDocuments/Synopsis/2014_asme_stamps.pdf

Here's another .pdf that goes into greater detail regarding the Stamps and what each one represents, and there's a little bit of historical information in this one also The meanings for each of the stamps are found in pg.7 of 9.

http://files.asme.org/ASMEORG/Codes/About/Links/1028.pdf

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-05-2015 19:27
Nice links Henry.

Al
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-05-2015 19:33
Thanks Al.:cool:

Henry
Parent - By Boon (**) Date 01-06-2015 17:28
Thanks for the useful links.

Best regards,
Boon
Parent - - By Boon (**) Date 01-06-2015 17:25
Al,

I agree ASME is complex I don't have full knowledge of all sections in ASME. I am responsible for the output of few welders and they are certified acc. to ASME Section IX.
WPS, PQR, material groups, essential variables etc. are not new to me.

Back to details.
It is helpful to work with someone with experience but when that someone with few decades of welding experience asked me if my certified welders are certified to "pressure vessel code", what do you think should be my question to him, if any?

Best regards
Boon
Parent - - By J.W. (*) Date 01-06-2015 18:39
I'm not AL but the simple answer is yes. Sect IX is a ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code for welding and brazing qualifications. He's qualified to weld with in the variables of his WPQ and the WPS.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-06-2015 19:10 Edited 01-06-2015 19:23
Therein lies the problem.

Just because your welders and WPSs are qualified to Section IX, your welders and WPSs may not be qualified to meet the requirements of a specific section of the B&PV code.

I frequently reject the WPS because the contractor failed to include notch toughness testing when it is invoked by the specific ASME B&PV code section. Bang! Down goes the PQR and the WPS. That being the case, i.e., the WPS is not supported by a valid PQR. How does the welder that is qualified using the unsupported WPS fare? Simple, the welder's qualifications are invalid as well as the WPS. A nasty can of worms has been set upon us.

There is no simple response other than to respond that the welders have been qualified to Section IX. Whether the welder is qualified to weld to a specific section of the B&PV code is dependent on a review of the code section to determine if the WPS is properly qualified and that the welder's qualifications do in fact meet the requirements of the additional requirements imposed by the applicable code section.

Generally speaking, a welder qualified to a valid WPS that has been tested/qualified in accordance with Section IX and meets the construction code are valid and applicable to other sections of the B&PC code, but remember what the letters "ASME" stand for; always, sometimes, maybe, and except. You must always read and review the requirements before jumping to a conclusion when working with ASME (or any other code).

Best regards - Al
Parent - By J.W. (*) Date 01-06-2015 20:35
I agree with you that ASME can be a can of worms especially if any details are left out of the question but to his question "is the welder qualified to B&PV Code" the answer is yes. What he can weld on within the B&PV Codes is a different question and more details would be needed.

Al, I really enjoy the knowledge you and many others (Brent, Henry and Robert to name few) bring to this forum. Many times thought provoking subjects are brought up and discussed here.

Thanks
J.W
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 01-07-2015 02:29
Al, I don't understand why it is so complicated. If the welders have been qualified in section IX, I believe they can be engaged to weld in construction codes such as B31.1/3, API 650 or section VIII as long as they don't violating the essential variables of the process they've been qualified.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-07-2015 04:31 Edited 01-07-2015 05:27
The original post was relative to the pressure vessel code. We can't be sure whether that post intended to include all the sections of the B&PV Code, but we'll assume it does. And for the record, we'll assume it was intended to include the pressure piping codes as well.  I am happy to see you bring up B31.3 which has several fluid service classifications. One of the fluid service categories is the high pressure fluid service which specifically tosses a few complications into the mix with regards to welder performance qualification and procedure qualification.

Consider the following quotes from B31.3:
K328.2.1 Qualification Requirements. Qualification of the welding procedures to be used and of the performance of welder and welding operators shall comply with the requirements of the BPC Code, Section IX, except as modified herein.
  (a) Impact tests shall be performed for all procedure qualifications .....
  (b) Test weldments [that would include both procedure qual and performance qual (my notation)] shall be made using the same specification and type or grade of base metal(s), and the same specification and classification of filler metal(s) as will be used in production welding.
  (c) Test weldments shall be subjected to essentially the same heat treatment, including cooling rates and cumulative time at temperature, as the production welds.
  (e) Mechanical testing is required for all performance qualification tests.

K328.2.3 Performance Qualification by Others. Welder performance qualification by others is not permitted.

How K328.2.3 applies to welder performance qualifications administered through the "Common Arc" and similar programs applies, I will leave to the reader. 

The paragraphs addressing welding requirements adds specific requirements that are "unique" to high pressure fluid service. These additional requirements and restrictions include:
K311.2.1 Backing and Consumable Inserts. Backing rings shall not be used. Consumable inserts shall not be used in butt joints except when specified by the engineering drawings.
K311.2.2 Fillet Welds. Fillet welds may be used only for structural attachments in accordance with para. K321 and 328.5.2.
K311.2.3 Other Weld Types. Socket welds and seal welds are not permitted.
K328.3.3 Consumable Inserts. Paragraph 328.3.3 applies, except that procedures shall be qualified as required by para. K328.2.

There are additional requirements, but I think the point is made that the construction code, i.e., applicable BPV Code Section, must be reviewed to verify no additional requirements (in addition to the basic requirements included in Section IX) have been invoked. The bottom line is the construction code can "add" "essential variables" to the lists contained in Section IX. Variables listed by Section IX as nonessential can become essential when required by the construction code.

Without knowing all the details, it is dangerous to  issue a "yes" or "no" response when working with the ASME BPV Codes. At best, I would say "maybe" until all the details are known. This is particularly true if a bet for a free lunch or coffee is on the line.

"There ain't no simple answers when working with ASME."

Best regards - Al
Parent - By fschweighardt (***) Date 01-07-2015 12:28 Edited 01-07-2015 12:34
Also from B31.3:2010
328.2.1(a)
Qualification of the welding procedures to be used and of the performance of welders and welding operators shall conform to the requirements of the BPV Code, Section IX except as modified herein.
328.2.1(b)
Where the base metal will not withstand the 180 deg guided bend required by section IX, a qualifying welded specimen is required to undergo the same degree of bending as the base metal, within 5 deg.

There are 5 other additional requirements after this one.

Another one from the High Purity Piping chapter:
U328.2.1(g)
A change in the type or nominal composition of the backing (Purge) gas shall require qualification.

If you look in ASME IX:2010 QW-256, and look at the gas requirements (which will send you to QW-408.9 when looking at backing gas)  IX only worries about a handful of P-Numbers and some joint designs when changing the backing gas.  Per 31.3 (in the High Purity section) any P-number, any joint configuration would be subject to requalification if the backing gas changes.

Interestingly, P-8, (several of the stainless steels) is not called out in IX, but a good plenty of HP piping is run in stainless.

Like Al indicated above, you never know until you go look at all of the contract and code requirements.
Parent - - By Boon (**) Date 01-07-2015 17:47
Al,

The "simple question" to me was from a very experienced welding specialist, but your replies contain more relevant points and allow me to have better understanding of the question.

Best regards,
Boon
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-07-2015 17:57
That's one of the goals of our community, to expand our understanding of the welding and fabrication standards we work with.

We work with standards that are not as simple as they appear to the novice.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 01-08-2015 01:13
But Al, in reality those additional requirements you mentioned when required are already summarized in the Project Specification.
The contractors are aware of the requirement beforehand during the tender stage. What we normally do is those common performance test based on sec IX, where the welders are qualified once to perform production welding in pressure vessel, piping & storage tank.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-08-2015 01:36
Reread the entire post. You missed the point being made.

Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 01-06-2015 19:52
Understanding the short hand method way of speaking, but you don't actually certify to pressure vessel code.
You qualify to ASME Section IX of the Boiler Code and Section VIII references Section IX.
To my knowledge, and I am admittedly growing senile, there are no additional requirements for qualification of welders in Section VIII.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-07-2015 18:21
I don't think it is a case of growing senile. I think it is a case of asking, "what does the poster mean when he uses the term "pressure vessel code"."

I agree that section VIII does not invoke additional requirements for the purpose of qualifying the welder, but can one say the same about the other code sections that are often (correctly or incorrectly) included in the term "pressure vessel codes"?

Once again, I go back to the question, "If the WPS isn't qualified properly, i.e., the supporting PQR does not include the requisite tests required by the construction code, is the welder qualified to the unsupported WPS properly qualified in accordance with Section IX?"

My thoughts are that a review of the welder qualification record must include a review of the WPS used and, if applicable, a review of the supporting PQR. Welding documentation is a house of cards that collapses if the PQR is not complete in accordance with Section IX and includes the additional requirements of the applicable construction code. Specifically, the need to perform impact testing comes to mind. If the applicable construction code requires impact testing, but the PQR does not include notch testing, the WPS is not properly qualified. As such, the WPS may not include heat input limitations necessary to ensure adequate notch toughness in the production welds. As a result, the welder who is following the WPS that isn't qualified for notch toughness, may be employing a technique that runs counter to a WPS that would have included heat input controls had it been properly qualified. 

One purpose of qualifying the welder using a qualified WPS is to ensure the welder can work within the constrains of a WPS. Generally, if the welder does not weld within the ranges listed by the qualified WPS, the test is considered a failed test.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 01-07-2015 18:56
Al,
Agreed.
Except on the senility part. :wink:
I remember that I knew stuff but I don't remember what it is I knew. In other words, the problem is that I remember that I have forgotten, and I have forgotten what I once remembered.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-07-2015 19:21 Edited 01-07-2015 21:26
I can't argue that logic, so I'll concede.

Don't they have a pill for that? I forget.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-09-2015 08:15
No, but they do have large volume hard drives to make up for the pills as long as one organizes the data to be stored in a manner for easy accessibility which for the most part results in morphing into a lofty goal to achieve, yet however short one realistically ends up once they have have started the seemingly ever more complicated endeavor... Simple eh? Yeah - tell me about it! Hence, one of the primary reasons why paper data storage is still widely used even today in the 21st century! When we should be rid of the so called inconvenient & ecologically inefficient method of data storage & retrieval, and use of wide scale deforestation which was once promised to be a thing of the past once everybody was more dependent on the technology of computed data storage! Well look how well that turned to be in reality eh? Right.... There's more paper being generated now than there was previously ever since we as a society have become ever more dependent on technological advances in computing and electronic data storage... And the result has created more confusion and a less secure and streamlined method for accessing the data which was previously stored on paper...

Technology... Sometimes you win and sometimes - well, you get the idea, don't you?:eek::roll::wink::grin::lol::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-09-2015 13:30
I hate to think of the information I've stored on computers that has been lost due to changing technology, i.e., incompatible hard drives, floppy storage media, crashes, etc.

Some people keep up with all the changes by buying new equipment every other year or so, but me, I use my machines for as long as I can. By then, the technology has changed and there is no easy way to transfer the files. I've gotten better over the years, but still it is difficult to stay on top of it all. Anyone interested in old floppys?

Hard copy is the only way to save the information, but then I would have to have a warehouse. My wife complains as it is because I have books piled on top of books because the book cases are full! No place to add more!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 01-09-2015 15:22
I would think there is more usable data 1000 year old pieces of paper than there are 40 hear old magnetic media. :)
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-09-2015 15:30
That's a bet that you would probably win.

Al
Parent - - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 01-11-2015 12:31 Edited 01-11-2015 13:06
Someone with few decades of welding experience...:roll:

It matters a lot that what this "pressure vessel code" reffers to. Even if the questioner means ASME P&PVC Sect. VIII, a YES can not be arbitrarily given. Don't forget the Code Cases.

I input a keyword "performance" in my PDF ASME Code Case and found many ones like the 2180-6 requires "Separate weld procedure and performance qualifications conducted in accordance with Section IX shall be required for this material".

That is to say welders "generally" qualified to IX are not univeral for all materials.

Just a thought~

Jovi
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-11-2015 16:40
You said more clearly than I did. Good job.

Best regards -Al
Parent - By Jovi Zhu (**) Date 01-12-2015 02:05
Thanks, Al,

BTW, I realize that the Code Cases are really good examples of how to ask questions.:smile:
Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Pressure vessel code

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