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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Acredited Test Facility
- - By browland (*) Date 05-21-2015 17:02
Does a company have to use an AWS accredited Test Facility to test their welder qualification coupons in order for their welders to be certified AWS welders?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-21-2015 18:02
That depends upon what you are actually wanting.

If you are meaning that your welders would be registered on the national databank through AWS then 'yes'.

If all you mean is to be qualified/certified to AWS standards then 'no'. 

Any welder qualified per D1.1 Clause 4 specifications especially if monitored and tested by an AWS/CWI is qualified TO AWS standards.  Even if the CWI is in house QC for the company.  It even better if the CWI is independent with no interest in pass/fail of the test taker. 

But, to take the results of that test and register the welder on the database requires the use of an ATF. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By browland (*) Date 05-21-2015 18:58
Thanks Brent. I wasn't clear but I was speaking in terms of qualified TO AWS standards. Someone that I thought was more educated than I was telling me different, I guess I need to re-evaluate his level of knowledge!

Bob
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-21-2015 22:19
Anyone other than the CAWI can witness the welder qualification and anyone other than the CAWI can sign the performance test record.

Generally, AWS welding standards do not require the involvement of a CWI to qualify welders. The exception, as noted by Brent, is when the welder has the need to be included, i.e., listed, on the AWS National Registry. In the case of the latter, the welder must be tested at an ATF and pay the required fees and renewal fees to maintain that listing.

Al
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-21-2015 22:59
And, as I was in a hurry to leave for my job in Phoenix I was not complete but Al filled in the gaps.  I said 'especially' a CWI.  But, anyone, except a CAWI without a CWI looking over his shoulder, can witness and even bend the tests as long as they are the approved person by the company.  The janitor, as Al often says, can do it.  But, it holds more weight when you have a CWI, ESPECIALLY and independent one, do the monitoring and bend the samples and evaluate and then fill out the paperwork.

Glad we could be of help.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-25-2015 15:51 Edited 05-25-2015 15:55
There is a page at http://weldingclassroom.org/index.php/welding-info/certification/welder-certification/ with  that reinforces and may add to some of the information you have already read. The PPT on that page is the same as the one attached to the post.

Have a great day

Gerald
Attachment: CertifiedWelderpublic.zip - PPT presentation (61k)
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-30-2015 01:31
- - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-22-2015 00:05
I'm going to throw something out that I see happening with many credentials: AISC Pre-Approved Fabricator/Erector, AWS/CWI, ATF's, etc.

Many outfits get certifications and then go around telling everyone that no one but them can really do the job in question.  They are the only ones qualified and/or certified so you MUST use them. 

Or, misinformation gets out due to misinterpretation and/or misunderstandings and people think a job takes certain qualifications or must have certain approvals in order to do the work. 

Bottom line: always refer to the applicable codes and/or job specifications/contract documents.  Yes, between trying to make sure you are doing a job correctly it can get confusing making sure you are in line with at least the applicable AWS (usually D1.1), AISC (usually 360 Construction Manual), and IBC-2012 (usually section 17 on Special Inspections) codes all working together on the job (if you look at the General Notes on the Construction Drawings, especially on the Structural Drawings General Notes pate, it will tell you what codes are applicable to both fabrication and inspection on the job). 

An example:  how often do we hear that you can only use a chipping hammer and a wire brush on a welding test?  That has limited application and is NOT part of the requirements for a D1.1 Structural Steel welder qualification test.  It is true of D1.5 Bridge Code but only for the welder qualification and not for production unless limited by the WPS (which would be a ridiculous thing to do). 

Another:  you have to be a pre-approved fabricator to do the structural steel shop fabrication for this job.  Only if the Owner/Engineer specifies so.  The IBC only says that IF done by a Pre-Approved Fabricator then there are no Special Inspections required by the Building Officials.  Only if the customer still wants them which is often a good idea for at least periodic checks.  The IBC does specify how an un-approved fabricator can get the work and be compliant with inspections. 

One more: welders must be certified by an ATF.  Don't see it in any code.  Don't see it in the IBC.  Don't see it in any Job Documents that I have been on.  And, even with a person qualified and registered through this system, an employer is still a fool who does not do their own testing to make sure the new employee can do the work they need done the way they need it done.  Not all jobs are the same.  This is not a cookie cutter business.  One size does not fit all. 

And the list goes on. 

Just my two tin pennies worth.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-22-2015 21:43
Well said.

Al
- - By iesca (**) Date 05-24-2015 06:48
As noted by Brent and Al, AWS D1.1 Code does not require that the welders of a company be tested by an AWS ATF. As well as another standards (AWS, ASME BPVC & B31.X and, API 1104 Std) do not require the welder qualification/certification tests be conducted by an ATF, but "Companies are increasingly realizing the shortcomings of self-qualification and switching to AWS Accredited Testing Facilities to test and qualify their welders".
Due to the welder self-qualification/certification process is often improperly conducted (WPSs not properly established and qualified, welder qualification coupons improperly inspected and, WPQRs incorrectly completed), entrusting the welder certification to the experts makes good business sense.

Hector
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-25-2015 15:47
Hector, Are these "Shortcomings" documented anywhere?  I understand the difficulties encountered without the adequate resources to perform testing.

Though I am in the process of having our facility audited to meet the requirements of QC4, I still try to let employers know that they retain the responsibility for qualification of and application of the welders in their employment.

The advantage of "self qualification" is that it is easy to add additional internal requirements to the process that may not be required when just performing testing at an ATF. I can add more stringent acceptance criteria, restrictions, and other variables. As the company representative that may be tasked with making the decision to hire or not hire, my witnessing of the test could be invaluable.

The ATF tests are no different than the tests conducted by the company other than the material traceability, a few extra documents, and the CWI requirement.

I think that ATF's or ANY facility with a well documented system for how they test and certify welders can be an asset for companies without the internal knowledge, equipment, and process controls needed to assure consistent testing practices.However if you cannot "trust" a company to test the welder, HOW IN THE WORLD can you test them to do the fabrication ?

There are so many that think the magic formula to quality welding is a certified welder when it is in my opinion, a very small part of the overall system for assuring welds meet the expectations of designers and end users.

Another point is that some codes specifically prohibit the process of welder testing being performed by other organizations. I think the testing facility has a place, however I hope it NEVER becomes a requirement by any code unless those facilities are going to take the responsibility for the welding performed by the welders tested there.

Have a great day

Gerald Austin
Greeneville Tn
Parent - - By iesca (**) Date 05-25-2015 21:44
Gerald, I agree with you on all the points.
I comment you that in may welding inspection assignments during more of 30 years I have found a lot of companies without the adequate resources to perform a proper welder testing and, I have encountered some cases where some CWIs have improperly conducted and documented the welder tests.
As an AWS ATF Auditor I have confirmed the advantages of the AWS CW Program.

I do not know if these "shortcomings" are documented anywhere. The statement of my first post is only my quality auditor perception. The statement "Companies are increasingly realizing the shortcomings..." was taken from the ATF Overview in the AWS website.

Have a great day,

Hector
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-25-2015 23:00
I have not been able to compare the application of welders to production welding that have been tested at an ATF myself. I do agree that there are shortcomings with quality control performed during qualification.

As I indicated before, If a company is not performing tests correctly, it would make you wonder what improves when they move to having their welders "certified" by an ATF when they very well may not understand the process. With the availability of testing facilities including labs that have been doing it for years, companies have some choices to make. Utilizing a facility with a documented quality system is a plus.

I have spoken with a few fabricators and manufacturers in our area regarding their reviewing our quality system prior to submiting to AWS and after speaking with some of them, I realize there are so few that even understand the process of qualification and certification of welders. Its just such a small part of controlling a possibly difficult process.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-27-2015 01:49
Hector,

The statement you quoted from the AWS advertising is nothing more than self promoting propaganda to spur use of their own system.

I'm sorry to see statements like that in order to simply promote their own pocketbook and thus take away potential work from the independent CWI's and small testing facilities with no documentation of poor results.  They win either way.  There will still be lots of people taking the CWI seminar and exam and now there are more trying to get qualified as ATF's and then welders and/or companies paying to get their welders on a national database.  AWS wins and welders just have another test to take. 

I still hold my ground that it is not JUST about the money.  But some advertising does not sit well with me when they make those statements. 

I do believe your statement about some who don't know what they are doing.  But there must be care in how this is handled.  Throwing out the baby with the bathwater won't solve the problem.  Quite frankly, I also believe there are newly accredited ATF's who do not truly know how to qualify welders.  I've seen how coupons are handled.  I've seen coupons bend tested that should not have passed visual.  I've seen other lack of training and experience mistakes on the part of the lab and welders given qualification papers that couldn't weld worth beans.  I've seen it with CWI's, education departments with a CWI, ATF's, education departments with an ATF credential, and more.

Personally, what is really needed is a seminar on qualifying welders.  One taught by the likes of Al Moore or any one of so many other highly qualified personnel after AWS has made sure they know what they are doing in this area and developed a program for it.  I'll bet that would make them a lot of money.  Even though I feel like I know what I am doing, I would take it and put my son through it as well for the documentation plus the possibility that we would learn some tricks we don't know or even some truth to replace mistakes we could well be making ourselves. 

The CWI system does not educate or certify the ability of anyone to qualify welders.  As in many areas there is always room for more training, study, and experience. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-27-2015 11:50
Having your welders tested at an ATF does not guarantee production quality...  It does not guarantee WPS's are even being used in production..

Become an ATF ?     Unless you already have a thriving business, supporting the cost and CWI manpower required to maintain an ATF is not an easy thing to do unless you are subsidized like a tech college. (Which I think provides an unfair advantage and harms independent inspectors)

Much more bang for your buck With accreditation like CWB A660 or IAS AC472 that actually audits the plants and ensures a welder can produce both grooves and fillets.

If you are going to spend large coin, I think a respected credential is an important thing to get for the expense...  The difference between a Welder Performance Qualification Test Report generated by an ATF vs one produced by an independent CWI or even an in-house inspector does not carry much weight with anybody other than the people trying to sell ATF business.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-28-2015 01:51
Just a few thoughts on the process.

The whole concept of "Accreditation" and certification is rampant. Everyone wants a "credential" without any understanding what the requirements are, what they represent, and what specification spells them out.

The ATF program is no less credible in my book than the CWI program. They are both programs in which the individual certified may have skills and abilities that vary greatly from what is expected by the employer of those people. However, when compared to NO Program, at least some minimum requirements are met.

Each program is subject to items left out by the writer of the specification  that may be essential to a company or specific industry. That's where diligence on the part of the organization utilizing the system is needed. If you don't understand the qualification process, how in the world can you control the fabrication process.

Some assume that a welder who is certified at an ATF is somehow different than one tested by some "non accredited" organizations. What people should assume is that the welders are tested and all operations documented as described by the institutes quality system.

Testing labs have been "certifying" welders for years with no standardized requirements for ANY part of the test process. Independent CWI's or just plain good ole boys have been doing it too.

Having welders tested by ANY method that just meets the minimum requirements of a code does not guarantee production quality. The system within the organization that establishes controls and monitoring methods for the process is a major part of the system.

Aside from the all important "compliance" side of things, a shop full of skilled and un-certified welders with a good quality control system will beat the pants off a shop full of ATF Certified, Shop Certified, CWI certified welders staffed with an armload of 2 week trained CWI's.

Certification (Signed Document supporting ...) of ANY type is no guarantee of quality.. Its just a part of a system. When it gets down to it, its in the hands and ethics of the skilled craftsman performing the work.

I have a quality system written for our facility and I did it from scratch. It's many more pages probably than a typical manual but regardless of how big it is or what it says, its only as good as the people who implement the procedures supporting the policies contained within it.

You made the statement "The difference between a Welder Performance Qualification Test Report generated by an ATF vs one produced by an independent CWI or even an in-house inspector does not carry much weight with anybody other than the people trying to sell ATF business." and I was wondering if you felt the same way about the CWI program.

I am the same inspector whether a CWI or not. I (or the companies I have worked for) have been guilty of feeding the cash cow since 90 and will probably continue to do so since it is whats expected. I may let it drop again and get a 4th CWI number. :)

Anyway, have a good one and thanks for reading my ramblings.  Been a busy few weeks and just getting back to the online world of welding.

Have a great day

Gerald
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-28-2015 11:39
The CWI carries weight and is widely recognized.  Those who have earned it become associated with a high standard... Nobody can argue that the exam sets the bar high... Even though we have all ran into folks who have earned it and are not good inspectors :)    I hold the CWI program in a higher regard than the ATF program....    Many of the most respected testing labs in the U.S. are not ATF's.  There is no motivation for them to add that credential.   There is plenty of business motivation to earn a CWI.

I like "accreditation" and I like institutional accreditations.  If there is a better way to communicate excellence or consistency or best practices to people far away who I want to sell my product to.. I don't know of that way...   Has accreditation turned into a racket also?   Yes !    See ISO.   It's a European style university driven monster with auditors who may or may not actually help make the business they are auditing operate with excellence or efficiency...  "Cash Cow"

But the notion of saying what you will do, how you will do it, and then following it up with proof?  That is a great idea.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-28-2015 15:57 Edited 05-28-2015 16:06
Agreed.

I believe, that even though we may have slightly different views of the source of the problem and the way to remedy the situation, overall we agree that there is no perfect answer and that some program is better than none. 

There are and always will be unscrupulous people who will try to circumvent any system.  There will also be people and/or companies who see a certification as the end and that they can now do anything without further study, training, experience, etc. 

The fault, in many ways, lies with the customers/clients who do not research a 'CWI' or 'ATF' close enough to make sure they can actually accomplish what needs to be done.  But then, they are trying to come to the 'EXPERTS' because they don't know how to do it themselves and don't know if the testing agency is competent or not nor how to find that out. 

Brent
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-28-2015 20:19
"But the notion of saying what you will do, how you will do it, and then following it up with proof?  That is a great idea."

That's it!
Parent - - By browland (*) Date 05-28-2015 17:10
Brent, I could not agree more with the idea that there could be more training for welder qualification in its entirety. There would be much more consistency in qualification than there is today. I can literally ask 3 different CWIs and ATFs and get different answers. Are any of them wrong?? Probably not because there really is no "standard" Test administering criteria.

Just my 2 cents worth,
Bob
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-28-2015 22:58
Bob,

It is more "Standard" than many think, especially in D1.1.  The problem, much misinformation, improper application, wrong interpretation, and just plain messed up understanding.

Example: We often get questions on the forum from members who don't realize the distinction between the various Tables and Figures as applies to Welder Performance Qualification vs. Welding Procedure Qualification.  Big difference between a PQR and a WPQR (Procedure Qualification Report VS Welder Performance Qualification Report).  It can be a tricky deal keeping them straight sometimes for sure, especially for the new inexperienced guys.  Passing the CWI exam did not make them truly ready in knowledge and experience to qualify welders.

Another: (not to wear out one of my pet peeves) you can only use a chipping hammer and a wire brush to clean your welds when taking a welder qualification test.  NOT SO!!  At least not for a blanket statement to be made.  Since a vast amount of welding and thus welder quals are done to D1.1, the only way that would apply is if an employer wanted their people qualified that way and wrote the WPS given for testing up to be that way.  A stupid move in my opinion but it does weed out grinders from the real welders and then in production you can lighten it up and let them use anything available and needed. 

But, sadly, you are correct, ask 3 and get 3 different opinions.  Even Al, Henry, Lawrence, others, and myself, don't agree all the time.  But the differences are usually over very minor things I am pleased to say. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By iesca (**) Date 05-29-2015 01:17
Brent,

I agree with you on most of the points.

There are some independent CWIs and small testing facilities performing a good job in the welder qualification process, but I think that such procees can and must be improved. ATFs just are another option

I would like to comment the following ítems:

- AWS B5.1:2013 Standard (in table 1) in regard to Performance Qualification establishes (for WI & SWI) the following capabilities to: (1) witness welder performance qualification, (2) verify welder qualification compliance, (3) verify welder qualification record compliance and, (4) request welder performance requalification. On the other hand, Part B (AWS CWI Examination) does not assess the practical capabilities/skills of the individuals to conduct the welder performance qualification tests; it would be very difficult to do it.

I believe that the skills/capabilities to effectively conduct weldert tests are beyond of the sole qualifications as a certified welding inspector.

- The DOCUMENT No.CSWIP-WEX-23-13 (2nd Edition, November 2014), "Requirements for the Certification of Welding Examiners for the Approval of Welder Qualifications in accordance with the Relevant Standards" is a good sample of the efforts performed in order to fill out the voids in this area.

- The AWS is working in the review/revision of the QC4-89 and QC7-93 Standards. The new edition or standard (AWS QC47:201X) will combine the two above standards and, it will contain provisions and requirements on Qualifiers (CWIs or SCWIs qualified to conduct welder qualification tests), and the new revision of QC1 Standard probably will contain provisions (may be as an endorsements) on capabilities related with WPSs and Welder Qualifictions.

Have a great day,
Hector
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-29-2015 01:37
All well and good, but I still think they need a seminar to go along with it.  Do the actual training.  Not sure the 'certification' or 'endorsement' is as important as the hands on training.  Just issue a certificate of completion of the course.  I suppose, that at that point, if one really wanted added endorsements/certifications there could be an optional exam to totally prove comprehension and application of the material.

I hope you know that to many this is just going to look like another cash cow that AWS wants to add in order to line their pockets.  And in some ways I would agree if they don't provide a seminar.  I don't think this is an issue that can be fixed by throwing another exam and certification at it. 

There needs to be a course and hands on training.  How many people even have QC-4?  How many of those have bothered to read it?  Then, how easy is it to actually combine the information from QC-4, B5.1, and D1.1 in order to qualify a welder?  Not very.  Too many differences.  We'll see how they do at 'REVISION' and 'COMBINING'. 

Thanks for the info.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-29-2015 03:03
The subject of welder qualification is near and dear to me. During my years under the welding helmet I figured anyone could weld if they actually wanted to. After thirty plus years as a CWI, I'm not so sure.

The employer is legally responsible for the work performed by their employees. Welding performed by welders involves the human element that is subject the whims of weather, fatigue, skill, and a multitude of other issues that can affect the quality of the final weld. Simple factors such as aging and the deterioration of one's eyesight can affect the quality of welds. Yet, none of the commercial code require a simple visual acuity.

The concept of once qualified, always qualified doesn't make a lot of sense to me if I was the employer. I don't believe accepting previous qualification is prudent considering the new employer has little control (none actually) when some other entity or employer administered and evaluated the test coupons. 

The concept of having all welders tested by a central "agency" means the employer has very little control over how the qualification test is administered or what WPS is followed when the welder welds the coupon.

I believe the employer should test their own welders. The welders can be required to follow a WPS that will be used in production and employ any specific techniques required by the employer. Can the same be said of a welder that is qualified by a central agency (ATF) where the welder has to follow a SWPS?

Welder qualification is expensive, but will it be any less expensive if the welder has to be qualified by a central agency that has to make a profit?

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Al
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 05-29-2015 04:11
Al,
Simple factors such as aging and the deterioration of one's eyesight can affect the quality of welds. Yet, none of the commercial code require a simple visual acuity.
so well put
wish it were different and we all stayed healthy and wonderful at 26 always
but life is not that way
we all must take life as it is and cards we are dealt
sincerely,
Kent
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Acredited Test Facility

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