Interpass grinding during weld test

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-10-2006 23:01 Edited 11-10-2006 23:17

Welcome to the forum!

Did you review the WPS the welder was testing to?

If grinding is not forbidden than it is allowed... pretty much that simple. D1.5 I believe is another matter.

Now contracts or contractors may make procedures more strict if they so choose. If the contractor does not want to see grinding in the test booth than he may stipulate that in the WPS.

Same with weaves or stringers... The procedure may require stringers because of impact requirments that cannot be met by the heat input of weaves or the shop forman may want to see stringers in a qual exam because they take a bit more skill to lay down. D1.1 WPS may stipulate weaves, stringers or allow a choice.
Frankly. V-up short circuit risks lack of fusion in material as thick as 3/8 and stringers are a more sure bet than weaves.. I don't recommend weaves on a joint like that, but thats just an opinion :) With FCAW I make my students do V-up weaves and stringers because different contractors locally demand one or the other specifically in there procedures.

By CWI555

Date 11-11-2006 08:08

If it's not specifically forbidden I agree. However, there is a judgement call to be made in my opinion. If they are taking out 1 pass for every two they are putting in thats a problem. For the cap, they need to be able to lay it in right the first time. If they are allowed to grind at will, what happens to excessive reinforcement? I think in such cases
it should be a judgement call. The intent of any weld test is to see if they can weld. I know in section IX, that particular language is specified.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-11-2006 12:46

555

I couldn't agree more.

But what ever limitations are to be used to judge welder performance ought to be spelled out before the welder ever enters the booth. Some folks don't allow grinders period. Others have a specific time limit that won't allow grinding one out of every two passes.

As far as the code goes....... Unless I have missed something D1.1 is silent.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-11-2006 13:07

"But what ever limitations are to be used to judge welder performance ought to be spelled out before the welder ever enters the booth." - quote

I agree. Tell them up front what is expected, and what is allowed. Also answer any questions they have before they get in there. Typically, I don't like to even let them see a grinder, I like for them to manually chip the root and cap, so that they don't beat the daylights out of it with the air chippers. However, if they get in trouble and stop and ask, I can evaluate whether the coupon can be saved (by grinding) or give them some additional instruction about what they did wrong and tell them to just start over with a new coupon after some practice.

D1.1 seems to leave it up to the employer as to what they will or will not allow above and beyond what is spelled out in Table 6.1 and Figure 5.4.

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 11-11-2006 14:18

John I agree,

we put a test booth procedure together for the welder to read. Along with the WPS, it spells out hold points and what kind of grinding can and cannot be done. After the welder reads it, then he/she will sign it.

I personally don't like to see a welder grinding each pass. But I want to see a welder grind starts and stops and have enough snap to see for instanstance, porosity and fix it. Not just weld over the top. The test booth is where you want to get your best people. The bottom line is that it is up to the inspector giving the test what he/she wants to see as long as at a minimum it meets the WPS.

Thanks
Jim Hughes

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-11-2006 14:24

Jim,
Yeah, I like to see starts and stops grinded also.
My test performance coupon is short enough to allow run off tabs on both ends and still get a E7018 to run from one end to the other without stopping, but sometimes you have those hiccups where the light goes out right in the middle of the coupon...then the grinder comes out of hiding...LOL

By weldhaus Date 11-11-2006 19:17

Thanks for all the feedback. I can't remember if the welder's WPS specified if grinding was allowed. I know when I took my certs for E7018 3Gup and 4G, for this company, the WPS I used was vague it didn't say anything about grinding being allowed. The WPS just called out joint details and Eletrode, position, the current allowed was a huge range, not specific. Travel speed wasn't listed or how many passes allowed. I had no problem passing using only a wire wheel for interpass cleaning. I do remember that the other employee failed his first attempt when he didn't grind, and on his second attempt he ground each pass till it didn't have any weld bead characteristics, it was smooth and shine the entire length, also he used a torch to re-heat before the next pass. And I am 99% sure that the WPS didn't call out interpass heat treatments because of it being low carbon steel A-36. The reason why I was questioning this is because I was thinking of informing the local AWS District Chairman of these actions, he is the main inspector for the company that the company I was employeed would do these contract jobs for. The chairmen is knowin to be very picky about everything when it pertains to these jobs. THere is a middle inspection company that does the witnessing/qualifying of welder certifications and joint fit-up inspection. THe chairman is the final inspector, only sees end product, rarely comes to inspect during the fabrication process. Do I have room to inform and question the actions that I witnessed as an empoyee. I have quit the place I worked to start my own venture doing inspection and repairs and everything in between. In the process of pursuing my CWI/CWE in the next few months and my CWEng eventually. Thanks for any info one can provide

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 11-11-2006 22:45

Mabe I missed something. Why would you want to inform the AWS district chairman? What does AWS or the chairman have to do with anything. If you feel the need to inform anyone then I think it would be first talk to the inspector, then if you still feel he did something wrong talk to the people who pay his salery. As an inspector whether it's a CWI or ASNT TC-1A or a company certified inspector they answer first and foremost to the employer. And finely, the inspector makes the call on what is acceptable and what's not. If it is not on the WPS and it does not violate the code that has juristiction, and he/she is okay with it (i.e grinding every pass) then it is his call. If he/she want's to have someone in the field having to grind every pass then that's his/her headache. It is very easy to second guess and play arm chair quarterback. With all due respect talk to the person doing the inspection first.

Thanks
Jim hughes

By weldhaus Date 11-12-2006 00:37

The fact that the person/top inspector is the chairmen of the local AWS district doesn't really matter. It is just coincident. I just have strong beliefs due to my education as a Welding Engineer that a welding procedure should be followed as it is stated and not to add techniques as long as they aren't specifically called out in the procedure as not permitted. I have just heard that this Top inspector for these jobs is very stringent when it comes to welding. He is known to find something wrong with with anything from weld symbols to insufficient joint detail on weld fit up. I feel if he knew what practices the inspection company allowed for qualification of welders he wouldn't use them. Which would reduce my competition by alot with the venture that I am trying to start Can't the AWS revoke a CWI certification if an inspector isn't following procedures as follows? I am trying to start up a weld inspection/weld repair/small Fab, in pursuant of my CWI/CWE in a few months and CWEng down the road. I believe that with my education and with real life experience that I have gained since graduation in the weld/metal fabrication industry that I can succeed. I see alot of weld procedure vagueness and procedures allowed for qualifications but don't actually pertain to the joint detail for the specific job. Example doing a groove weld qualification for fillet welds. I feel that alot of corners are be cut and I was taught when primary welds fail, tradgedies happen. Follow a Qualified WPS exactly and a weld will pass.
Peace
WeldHaus

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 11-12-2006 02:41 Edited 11-27-2006 18:40

Weldhaus,

I respect your concern. But in my professional welding engineering opinion the inspector did nothing wrong, other than get a qualified welder that has to grind every pass. Again the inspector does not work for AWS and AWS has no juristiction over this inspector, unless he/she is abusing their certification. Gringing would be considered a super non-essential variable. :)

Thanks
Jim

By CWI555

Date 11-12-2006 08:17 Edited 11-12-2006 08:24

Weldhaus,
Quote"
Which would reduce my competition by alot with the venture that I am trying to start Can't the AWS revoke a CWI certification if an inspector isn't following procedures as follows? "unquote.

I think you need to read QC1:2006. If your attempting to obtain a CWI, you will need to anyway.
In particular these paragraphs: 11.2.4, 11.3.1, and 11.3.2

Based on your statements, I see more than just a concern for the ability of an inspector.
Your thinking about going after a CWI's certification because this CWI so happens to work for a company that would be or is competition for your startup company.
Base on your statements here, I have motivation questions and ethics questions.
I suggest you consider the points of QC1 before you act if you do obtain a CWI.

By weldhaus Date 11-12-2006 16:06

I read those sections and what I got out of it was one can't question another outfits work, publically. I am not going to the pursue informing anyone, just let it be thanks for the input
Weldhaus

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-13-2006 02:24

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-13-2006 18:13

SS,
I've never seen where you were speechless before.....LOL J/K ;-)

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-15-2006 09:55

Hi John!
I just figured I'd wait a bit and read the responses from others before I chime in!
Thanks for caring FRIEND!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run silent, especially when avoiding foot in mouth disease...
Run Deep enough to observe, rather than to react!!!

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 11-13-2006 17:53

I'm not sure what you are driving at. Unless I missed something, from what I read I can't say I see a problem.
As was mentioned in previous posts, D1.1 does not address grinding on weld tests. As was also mentioned, there could be other criteria that applies, but grinding would not be in conflict with D1.1.

What may be causing the confusion is that D1.5 (Bridge Code) prohibits grinding a weld test, other than flattening out reinforcement for the bend test (provided the coupon is visually acceptable).
Note that the requirement is for welder qualification testing only. D1.5 does not prohibit grinding of production welds. However, realize that weld defects are supposed to be evaluated prior to repairing them - major repairs are done to an approved procedure.

Many people feel that grinding should not be allowed for D1.1 welder qualifications; the test booth is usually the best of circumstances and if a welder can't do a good job in there then s/he needs more training and practice before being turned loose on production.
Many others feel that anything allowed in production should be allowed on a test. Both positions have merit. I prefer not allowing grinding, but we all know that the test does not necessarily determine if a welder is any good or not; just that the test passed or failed. ( I know a top notch welder who falls to pieces at the thought of taking a test but does excellent work otherwise).

We all have to be careful about injecting personal opinion into a welding code. We don't have to like it, but if it is not in writing somewhere, it doesn't exist. I would think it better to talk with the inspector about the testing. Either he missed something and might appreciate the pointer, or you might have missed something and you will have an opportunity to learn.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 11-13-2006 18:20

I think the long and the short answer is none of the Codes I am familiar with specifically prohibit any degree of interpass grinding. In my own experience this has always been an area where the test supervisor has ultimate discretion. In my own shop I tell our applicants to treat the test as they would a job, if they botch something grind it out. They're going to be using a grinder on the job anyway so I personally have no problems allowing them to do so during testing. Naturally, as has already been said, if they deposit one pass only to grind out two, then we have a problem.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-13-2006 18:30

The WPS should indicate the method of cleaning between passes, I have seen where it just says "remove slag" without going into any detail as to how. Unless the WPS prohibits it....and then D1.1 is silent on it.....what can you say?

By MBlaha

Date 11-14-2006 04:16

I still tell them, grind your starts and stops, and if you have a opps, go ahead and grind it out and weld it back up, just remember, its a welding test, not a grinding test. I will be listening, and if I hear too much grinding going on, I am gonna take it away and give you a rusty old file.

I guess I would rather see that they can fix an opps, and still put in sound weld metal.

Mike

By kipman

Date 11-14-2006 06:10

Gents,
I believe that one reason this topic is not addressed in D1.1 is that the code can be used for the welding of open root structural tubulars. Feathering of the root pass starts/stops is usually necessary.
Mankenberg

By commonarc (**)

Date 11-14-2006 03:10 Edited 11-14-2006 03:16

We have a severe shortage of skilled welders in the ASME level of the welding trade. Lots of corners are being cut by contractors.

A CWI told me years ago that he is not here to fail me, he's here to see if I can weld. Grinders are allowed in the Boilermakers trade tube tests except on Commonarc Tests which are witnessed by multiple contractors at the same location. We get certified by as many as 20 contractors at a time, usually at a union hall training center. Grinders are never allowed on these tests and only a file, wire brush and chipping hammer are provided. You can use other tools like dental type picks, hand held saw blades (for cleaning slag) and mirrors but that's it.

Lots of marginal welders doing ASME Code welding these days. Trust me. I see it daily and it is frightening.

By CWI555

Date 11-14-2006 03:59

There is a shortage of most skilled craft, welders don't hold a patent on that one. fitters, plumbers, inspectors, you name it, there is a shortage.
I can weld but my primary trade is inspection. In that, there are few left who know what they are doing. In particular UT. With the scopes that are available today, the new comers lean heavily on the machine to do the work for them. Ask one of them about echo dynamics and you get the doe in the headlights look. To them, the only thing that matters is what comes up in the gate. If it does something outside of that, they are totally lost.
As them what a parasitic wave is, or the difference between a lateral and a creeper wave, the same look. The same for flaw characterization.

Welders of late have been more and more of the rod and wire burner variety. The older welders who truely understood the "art" of welding are even rarer than a good NDE tech. The new guys look at the WPS but don't understand it. To them, the numbers are abstract data picked up from the welding gods at a SMAW ritual. I've recently ran across a lot of just these kind. The WPS restricts weave to four rod diameters. These guys are trying to run 6 and 7 diameter, having trouble maintaining arc, in short, have no rod control skills to speak of. The scary part is, these guys are truely pissed becaused they failed, stating ademently that in the former contract, they all passed?

In short, to many young folks think making a living is pushing a mouse button for 100 bucks a click. They consider welding and inspection to be "manual" labor and when you hear them say it, you would think manual labor ranked right up there with sucking a portajohn clean.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-14-2006 11:06

"...you would think manual labor ranked right up there with sucking a portajohn clean."-quote

Off topic injection.....Oh man, the guy that comes to pump out the honey bucket here says that most people tell him "that smell is awful" and asks him "how do you do that day in and day out"

...his reply was that "it smelled like money to him"...I guess it's all in how you look at it....LOL. If you REALLY want to work, you can find work.

By CWI555

Date 11-14-2006 14:56 Edited 11-14-2006 15:15

Smelled like money to him - Quote

Yep, A wise man once told me (my grandfather) that any work is honorable, the only work that is dishonorable is that which you refuse to do because you think your to good for it. He lived through the great depression, and had a very different view of such matters. When I was growing up, He'd work me, mowing, bailing, feeding the live stock, and anything else that needed done on the farm. If I slacked he made sure I visited the wood shed.
I used to think him a real A##hole, but when I entered the real workforce, I saw the wisdom in what he did, and consider myself a better man for it.
You ask one of the button pushers to do any of those things, they'd just laugh at you.
When you do run across one willing to work, and can add 2+2, they are worth helping.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 11-14-2006 19:02

I don't know about sucking out portajohns (too many moving parts for my simple mind to figure out) but $100 a click I could handle. Where do I sign up?

By CWI555

Date 11-14-2006 23:54

I can't remember where I read that, but it was related to the late 80's and bill gates. At one time he was worth 100 bucks a click. Now it's probably in the neighborhood of 1,000 bucks the last stat I heard, and thats an old one. (1 click = 1 second)

By MBlaha

Date 11-14-2006 04:12 Edited 11-14-2006 04:18

comonarc, I am seeing it as well, but as you said in your other post, you have been welding for 20 years. That pretty much makes you one of the old farts you used to talk about. Do you have any answers as to how to get qualified welders to take up our trade, move all over the country, live out of a suitcase and grundgy motels (or even nice ones) for weeks, months, etc I have went to a couple of the local trade schools and talked to them about getting into the apprenticship program, but they dont want to travel, they dont want to work up high, get dirty in a grubby old boiler. We are facing this problem all over the united states and canada. It is our job, as the old farts, to get in there and help out these unqualified people and make them more proficient. I have never had a problem going up to someone strugglinig, and asking if they would like some help. I see this as ensuring my pension. 99% of the time, they will say yes, please. I am always happy to take a little time and help out someone who is willing to listen and learn. On the other hand, if they say I can get it, I just step back and say, well, I hope we have that much time. I could go on with other problems we are having, like attendance, just here for the check or till the next overtime job breaks, but that serves no purpose. What does, is taking the time to help out the ones that want to learn

Mike

By vonash

Date 11-15-2006 00:57

We should end this thread; the forum has spoken.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-15-2006 10:13

I beg to differ Vonash!!!
"We have only just begun to fight!!!" John Paul Jones.

MBlaha send me an e-mail describing in depth the quality of welder you're looking for in Wisconsin and I'll see what I can rustle up... Btw, also include the rates over there and how busy you folks are and how to contact you.

As far as this thread goes, I'd like to hear some more opinions with respect to the original question and the comments related to evolution of the latest topic included within. TIA.

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent... Run Deep enough so that when one must break silence, it's purpose is for the greater good!!!

By CWI555

Date 11-15-2006 18:57 Edited 11-24-2006 16:08

I think it boils down to common sense and judgement. Grinding start stops, and small areas that got away from the welder, thats just common sense. Those are things they will see in production and should be noted how they handle it. The idea is to get a welder who knows what they are doing. Its when they (the welder) cannot control the process, and are using grinding to fix poor technique and lack of skill, thats when a judgement call needs to be made.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-15-2006 19:13

I agree, D1.1 only mentions interpass cleaning in D1.1:2006 Paragraph 5.30.1 ...doesn't go into any detail how that is to be accomplished...actually, I just looked it up and re-read it and in 2006 they changed it to read "cleaned by brush or any other suitable means".

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-15-2006 22:36

For SSBN and others who are still interested in *how things get done* in different labs.

Here is an example from an SWPS I like to use for FCAW with 100% C02 shield gas.
ANSI/AWS B2.1-1-019-94R

"Initial Cleaning: Chemical or mechanical; joint shall be dry prior to welding"
"Interpass Cleaning: Mechanical only."

The language in the B2.1 SWPS's is indicative of what is seen in many (not all) welding industries. It satisfies D1.1 and Section IX but is not very specific as to technique or equipment.

When I test program students for performance qualification I provide the SWPS for review. I also provide the manufacturers parameter ranges (these MUST fit within the SWPS). In some instances I also make available data from the Hobart institute. They are briefed on hold points for every exercise/test and we determine together at the hold points whether grinding will be allowed or to scrap the project/test. Different performance exams will be built with different hold points and limitations on rework and production times, in order to reflect real world conditions as best as possible within the limits of our facility.

We also talk about *crafstmanship* being an ability to produce correctly and efficiently, not necessarily every single weld pass perfectly the first try. Best practices eliminate alot of grinding and rework time. However, it is very important to welders to be able to deal with a variety of discontinuities.

My method is a little more hands on that most shops may be. But my goal is to prepare the students for the many different approaches to testing and performance qualification they may encounter at a job interview/exam.

By MBlaha

Date 11-16-2006 00:00

ssbn727

I will do that either tonight when I get done, or in the morning. I do not have an email account I can access off this puter at work.

Thanks, and I hope you can provide us with some good prospects for our apprenticeship program, or some boomers willing to work a 5-10's job as that is what all the new construction in WI is going. We need around 100 here on this job I am working on right now, plus 2 new 750 boilers going in Millwaukee, a couple hersic units, not to mention the repair work that will be firing up here again in Jan.
Or, if you wish, send me an email at mikie_j__b@yahoo.com. (hee hee hee) that way I dont have to type in your email addy LOL. Not that I am lazy or anything like that LMAO.

Mike

By brande

Date 11-24-2006 06:27

Grinding under D1.1 is definitely allowed for welder qualification.
It is not under D1.5.

Why-nobody knows. There will always be grinding in production fabrication-bridge or structural.

The important thing is to follow the code.
Remember, anything not specifically prohibited by the code
is allowed.

Also remember-do not put your judgement ahead of the code.

As inspectors, we are only there to witness a weld, applying the particular code's criteria. Period.

Yes, I have passed welds that did not look as good as I would have liked.
Yet these welds passed all the code criteria.

If they pass the particular code criteria-they are code approved welds.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Hope this helps

brande

By castle

Date 11-30-2006 14:36

brande,

I could not have stated it any better than that.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 11-30-2006 16:59

I agree. Definately well said Brande. Another reason, at least within the AWS House, that I hope we will eventually defer to B2.1 for Qualifications; similar as ASME IX is to ASME B&PV Codes. Each constructing Code allowed to have their little twists and turns but all Codes agreeing on certain "base" elements.

By Ariel D C (**)

Date 12-05-2006 13:36

the awful truth is when you take the CWI exam, you are allowed to bring eraser in case you need to opt for another answer...when you passed and get employed as a tester for welder qualification test....you'll become strict and don't allow the welder to use the grinder....any different between grinder and eraser...

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 12-05-2006 15:04

well said Ariel. Which is EXACTLY why I've always allowed my welders to use grinding (with moderate discretion)... they're GOING to use them on the job, why not in the booth?

By MBlaha

Date 12-06-2006 20:50

very excellent point Ariel

By RANDER

Date 12-06-2006 21:18 Edited 12-06-2006 21:53

Agreed, When we take our certification exams (Inspectors) do the certifying agencies care how many mistakes you erased or just that you pass the exam in the allotted time with as few mistakes as possible. Im sure its very rare that any person passes their exam with 100% and doesnt use an eraser. How many times have we typed a report and deleted/reworded a sentence to achieve a QUALITY product that we can present our client/employer with pride? Kind of a similar thing. No?

Guess I thought a little more. On API tests you have to use a calculator to work the applicable formulas whereas in the field we can use a computer. On the test you have to prove you are knowledgeble enough to get the result with the bare minimum of equipment so I could see limiting the use of a grinder on a weld test. Sure on one job you may have power hookups everywhere but on the next one your'e gonna need that file and you dont want a guy that lays a sloppy bead wasting $time$ cleaning up too much. OH well breaks over, Food in the belly and food for thought.

By MBlaha

Date 12-06-2006 21:26

here here or is it hear hear???

Mike

By brande

Date 12-10-2006 06:44

To all concerned...

Erasers are not grinders, pencils are not welding electrodes...FWIW

Anyway, I will repeat....

What is not specifically prohibited by code, is allowed.

To say that grinders will always be used in the field, so I should allow them on a welder qual is wrong and should not be considered, unless the code allows. Period.

The code says what it says.

Inspectors are bound to apply the code without any personal / professional preferences. An inspector cannot put his personal feelings ahed of the code.

No rocket science here.

If the code allows it, pass it.

If the code does not allow, fail it.

Not really more complicated than that.

Hope this helps

brande

By Ariel D C (**)

Date 12-10-2006 15:49

'Erasers are not grinders, pencils are not welding electrodes"....your statement is 1000% correct if you're referring to the composition of materials.

But talking about exam / test, they have the same function.

AWS wants you to use pencil so that it can be erased easily.
If the exam invigilator will not allow the CWI examinee to use an eraser...I think he/she has the right to protest. Similarly, the CWI should not stop the use of grinding during welder performance test because grinding is not an essential variable as per code.

Its true No rocket science here....but why many Inspectors don't understand the code requirements although they passed the CWI exam?

By brande

Date 12-11-2006 03:29

Ariel-

Pencils are usually used on exams because they are required by automatic test grading machinery, not because they are easily erased.

Welding performance ( qual ) tests have certain parameters that must be followed. Some may not be on the essential variable list.

Requirements are in the welder performance section, however.

Off the top of my head, a good example would be AWS D1.1 ( Structural ) and AWS D1.5. ( Bridge )

AWS D1.1 allows grinding on welder performance ( qual ) tests, AWS D1.5 does not.
NYSSCM ( New York ) does not allow grinders on either Structural or Bridge qual tests.

Keep in mind, too, that taking a simple welder performance ( qual ) test is nothing like taking the AWS CWI exam.
Apples and lizards here.

A welder will be expected to take dozens of performance tests during his career. This is easy and normal.
A welder qual test is not a real challenge.

An AWS CWI, will take less than a half dozen tests. More if he gets into other things. ( ASNT, PT, MT, UT, RT, ASME, etc. )

Yes, the AWS CWI exam has a question challenge / protest procedure. It is there for a reason.

A basic welder performance test will usually take about 15 / 30 minutes or so, depending on test sample size.

An AWS CWI exam can take six hours.

There is simply no equation between an AWS CWI exam and a simple welder performance test.

All said and done, it goes back to the particular code being tested to.

Anything not specifically prohibited by the code is allowed.

The code must be followed. Period.

Really doesn't get any simpler than this.

Yes, some qualified ( passed test ) AWS CWI inspectors don't fully understand code requirements.
Although rare, I do run into this from time to time.
Passing an AWS CWI test is only the very beginning for an inspector.

The AWS train their CWI's to interpret code. Any code. That is what they do.
Particular code requirements are not taught, since there are so many codes.
The AWS CWI should know the code he is working to.
If the AWS CWI does not understand the particular code requirements, that is on them.
They have not done their homework. Period.

If they don't understand the particular code to your satisfaction, I would fire them immediately, not pay them and get someone else.

I have little tolerance for this.

Hope this helps

brande

By RANDER

Date 12-11-2006 04:13

Agreed, if its not prohibited by code its acceptable however one CAN be more strict than the code. If an employer decides that they dont want some welder that cant make a code weld without taking "X" hrs labor (Grinding and welding) then thats their perogative. Some guys are sloppy and need to dress their weld on every pass and some are better craftsman...... If you want a guy to rework every other weld to make one acceptable weld then thats fine let them use the grinder but if you want a craftsman omit the use of a grinder and ensure that every pass is good by using only a file. . Thats only saying that a grinder MAY make a welder careless because they can grind away any shi* pass but Im sure the Pro welders that visit this site would heartily disagree with that. A grinder is nothing more than a mechanized file and if you dispute that I dont know what to say.

Again I agree if its not prohibited its acceptable to the code BUT an employer can always demand excellance beyond the code.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 12-11-2006 11:47

I'm with Rander on the requirements that are black and white with regards to grinder use during the test.

Now many of you just don't place alot of confidence in a welder who has just passed his welding test...why is that?

Could it be that you realize that the welding test only stands to say that someone, someday took a test and it just happened to be clean and passed the bends or NDT and yet you know in the back of your mind that this person ground out every pass that they placed to get themselves through the test? Or would you have more confidence in this welder if they never picked the grinder up? You're testing so that you can place these welders in production...you need some level of confidence that they can do the job, regardless of the difficulty...

Fact: ...there are production welds that are in places that grinders will not fit and it is just not practical for our welders to have to rely on a grinder to place good welds. Therefore, I restrict the use of grinders at my discretion
(I am responsible for testing the ability of the applicants, so I want to be certain these applicants are up to the task)

By brande

Date 12-12-2006 02:57

RANDER,

You are absolutely correct in saying the employer can make it's requirements more stringent than code, keep in mind they can't make them less stringent than code.

However, if the candidate passes the code criteria ( not necessarily the company criteria ), he really is
qualified to the code tested.

Don't get me wrong, the company has every right to set it's requirements for employment. Many times this is good.

In this instance, however, the company cannot deny code compliance or qualification to the specified code due to the welder not satisfying the additional company requirements.

Code requirements = code requirements.
Code + additional company requirements = company requirements only.

All in all-the point is moot and means nothing, however, since if the welder does not pass the more stringent company qualification parameters-he will not be hired and given any certification / qualification record as these belong to the employer anyway.

Good Luck

brande

By Jim Hughes (***)

Date 07-01-2007 00:33 Edited 05-05-2021 17:10

I did not see this when I replied before. This is wrong, the potential welder does qualify to the code, and they use YOUR WPS's as their guide to follow to achieve a sound weld. You don't show the welder the code you show them your WPS.

Not rocket science!!!

Thanks
Jim Hughes

By brande

Date 07-14-2007 06:13

To be qualified....

A welder must qualify to a code approved test.
He must also qualify to a WPS approved by the code by a PQR.

All AWS tests are prequalified, as the subject tests to the process and not the code, directly.

brande