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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / maximum single pass layer width...
- - By JA (**) Date 09-19-2007 11:14
why is there no answer for SMAW in D1.1 table 3.7..............maximum single pass layer width......?

and what does "split layers" mean....?
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-19-2007 11:34
A split layer is synonomous with stringer beads or at least several beads to comprise a layer. 
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-19-2007 23:41
Split layer simply means that if the root opening or the width of the previous layer exceeds some value, multiple passes are required for the subsequent layer(s). The multiple passes can consist of several stringers or a couple of weave beads.

The block for SMAW is shaded because there are no limitations imposed for SMAW as there is for FCAW, SAW, etc. with regards for the width of a layer. See footnote "f" at the bottom of the table.

So, for those individuals that make the statement that weld beads deposited with low hydrogen electrodes should be limited to twice the electrode diameter, or three times the electrode diameter, or four times the electrode diameter, etc., they are not making a statement that is founded on the requirements of AWS D1.1 or ASME. It may be an in-house or self-imposed limitation to control heat input, but it not a requirement or limitation per the Structural Welding Code.

Notice there are limitations imposed for the "thickness of a layer" or the 'size of a single pass fillet" when using SMAW.

I've seen a couple of responses in previous posts where folks have cited the "width to depth ratio" limitation, but that requirement only applies to SAW when the Structural Welding Code is the governing document.

Hope this helps.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By waynekoe (**) Date 09-20-2007 03:58
Al,
Perhaps you should look at table 3.7 again. Granted, I'm looking at the '02 edition, so, I'm not sure what the '06 version says, but, I don't believe its any different.
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 09-20-2007 04:18
Its shaded,dont have the '02 version but Al is right!
Parent - - By JA (**) Date 09-20-2007 11:02
i have the 02 version and the footnotes are in numbers , not letters.....?             have they changed.....?
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 09-20-2007 14:43
it has changed
Parent - By waynekoe (**) Date 09-20-2007 15:35
My comment is aimed at Als statement that the width to depth ratio is only intended to apply to SAW. If you look at the requirements for "max root pass thickness" Theres a little 'D' present, and the only shaded part is for SAW. And at this time, I am looking at the '06 edition.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 09-20-2007 16:09
al
are you saying that 3.7.2 and figure 3.1 only apply to saw? (d1.1-06)
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-20-2007 19:24 Edited 09-20-2007 19:30
Clarification is in order. It only applies to the root pass of groove welds, not every pass as has been suggested by a few past posts.

Once again, this paragraph reinforces the position that AWS does not limit the width of a weave bead made with low hydrogen electrodes. The width they refer to "subsurface", not the exposed "face". However, the footnote I was referencing is the one at the top of the table right after SAW. That footnote is global for SAW and applies to all passes. That was a good catch though on the root pass of groove welds!

I would like to see a situation where the width of the weld bead made with SMAW, GMAW, or FCAW would be narrower on the surface than it is below the surface. I don't believe I have ever seen it happen. Maybe with a deep U-groove preparation with vertical groove faces? Has anyone else seen it?

SAW is shaded in the vertical and overhead positions; why? All together now; because SAW is not used in the vertical or overhead positions.

Open mouth, insert foot. I never did like the taste of toe jam, but I have aquired a taste for it. So will you if you stay with the forum long enough.

Best regards - Al :)
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-20-2007 19:44 Edited 09-20-2007 19:46
deleted....

Nevermind me...I'm alseep at the wheel again
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 09-20-2007 20:16
Hello Al, I'm going to ask a question here as I have some beliefs and feelings regarding the bead width or depth to width ratio. This may be a totally seperate issue, but here goes. When bead widths are applied to A36 grade materials there is not much effect on the finished weld metal, HAZ, and parent metal in regard to hardness, possible cracking issues, and other metallurgical items. Yet, I feel when you are possibly dealing with many other types of alloys that are used in the building trades, specifically A572, A514, CorTen(don't know the ASTM#), and other alloyed materials, the width and width to depth issues could become a very important issue. Does the D1.1 code defer these exceptions to the WPSs to define these specifics? Please forgive my ignorance. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 09-20-2007 20:28
would some of those bm's require a pqr
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 09-20-2007 20:38
Hello hogan, I'm sure they would, however, unless I'm confused here(highly possible), those documents don't include the weld progression specifically do they? Best regards, aevald
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 09-20-2007 21:44
i guess what i was trying to convey was that if a pqr is performed the resulting information could be an indicator of any issues there might be.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 09-20-2007 21:52
Hello hogan, I see where you're coming from(I hope). Would that indicate that D1.1 would not be the indicator for bead width, width to depth ratio, and those types of limitations would be determined by the PQR and then spelled out in the WPS? I'm a little slow here so please bear with me. Thanks and regards, Allan
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 09-20-2007 22:12
that where i was going with it. sorry i wasn't to clear tough day.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 09-20-2007 22:52
Hogan, thanks! Hope the day gets better! Regards, Allan
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-21-2007 01:17 Edited 09-21-2007 01:22
The base metals considered to be "prequalified" per D1.1 are typically classified as "easily" welded. They have relatively low carbon content, low carbon equivalencies (Ce), and require little preheat to control hardness and cracking tendencies.

The different groupings in AWS D1.1 Table 3.2 appear to be based on carbon equivalency; higher Ce requires higher preheat.

ASTM A514 is not listed in Table 3.1, but it is listed in Table 4.9, so it would have to be qualified by testing.

With regards to stringer versus weave beads, cooling rates not only affect the hardness of a base metal of a given Ce, but grain size as well. Coarse grains perform better than small grains at elevated temperatures where creep is a concern. Small grains provide better toughness than large grains at low temperatures assuming all other variables are held constant.

Heat input is often used to control cooling rates, thus the grain size of the weld and HAZ. Excessively slow cooling rates encourages coarse (large) grains in the weld and encourages grain coarsening (growth) in the HAZ. Neither of which is beneficial if low temperature toughness is an issue. Usually the travel speed is one of the most effective variables used to control heat input. If small grain sizes are preferred, use stringers to increase travel speed. If larger grain sizes tweaks your interest for high temperature applications, the weave bead is the way to go. 

Heat input is calculated and controlled when qualifying a welding procedure where notch toughness is required. In AWS D1.1 notch toughness is not a concern when qualifying a WPS unless it is specified by the "engineer" in the contract. When toughness requirements are imposed, a multitude of "supplementary variables" kick in and additional restrictions come into play. Those supplementary variables are listed in Table 4.6 and are more limiting than the essential variables listed in Table 4.5. 

As for how the width of a weld bead affects the properties of the base metal, it doesn't matter if you are welding A36, A572, etc. The affects are the same, high heat input, grain coarsening, low toughness, improved ductility, lower strength; low heat, fine grain, improved notch toughness, high strength, lower ductility.

If you are welding a quenched and tempered material, the same situation exists with regards to grain size and notch toughness as with the lower strength steels. However, there is the additional concern with the affects of high heat input and high interpass temperatures on the HAZ, the width of the HAZ, and the areas adjacent to the HAZ. Steels that are Q&T have "high" Ce values so they will develop martensite when rapidly cooled. Then, both toughness and ductility are improved upon, with a relatively small loss in strength, by tempering the martensite at some temperature below the stress relieving temperature (also below the lower temperature of transformation). Welding with high heat input can increase the width of the HAZ by increasing the volume of metal that is heated to temperatures above the transformation temperature, thus the steel is  austenized. Slow cooling due to the high heat input and high interpass temperatures prevent the austenized HAZ from forming martensite when the austenite decompose. Instead, pearlite and ferrite are formed with a dramatic decrease in strength. The area beyond the HAZ does not experience temperatures high enough to be austenized, but may experience temperatures above the tempering temperatures used during manufacturing. Once again, strength is reduced, ductility is improved.

On the other hand; if the welds in Q&T steels are made with too little heat input and/or proper preheat, the weld and HAZ can cool too quickly and the austenite will decompose into untempered martensite. Very strong, but low toughness and low ductility.

Manufacturers of Q&T steels will provide information on the maximum interpass temperatures and heat input limitations to provide a certain level of predictability of the mechanical properties after welding.
I get nervous when folks talk about welding crane booms made with T-1 steels and other high strength materials. All too often the welder isn't provided with sufficient information to make the necessary repairs in the proper manner. If it doesn't crack while welding, the assumption is that it is a good weld.

A good experiment to compare weave beads to stringer beads is to weld a simple T-joint using a single fillet weld. Use A36 steel plates and weld it with "good" E7018 or GMAW spray. Compare a single pass fillet weld with a leg of 5/16 inch made using a weave technique in the vertical position. A weld made in the horizontal or flat positions will work just as well. Then make another assembly welded on one side using multiple passes, three passes should work nicely. Again, be fair, the fillets made using a weave should be no larger or no smaller than the multipass fillet weld. Sounds like a standard Fillet Break Test to me! Then break the fillet welds with a sledge hammer and count the number of blows it takes to break each weldment.

I did this in a shop with 108 welders over a two week period. The results announce by the welders (all 108) was unanimous. They were rather surprised at what they discovered.
I've done this with E7018, E70S-2, E70S-6, E71T-1, and other electrodes and the results is rather typical for all of them.

I may be way off base with my analysis, but that how I look at the issues being discussed. Someone else may have a better handle on this metallurgy stuff.

I just reread your questiona and it appears that I went off on a tangent. As I understand it, the issue of the bead width versus depth is that a weld that is thicker than it is wide tends to crack. When the weld has an odd shape such that the subsurface width and depth exceed the surface face width cracking tendencies increase. However, as I said, I have not seen a case where this was possible with anything other than SAW (not including the high energy beam welding processes).

Best regards - Al
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 09-21-2007 03:12
Hello Al, I certainly don't mind you going off on a "tangent". As long as you don't mind putting the information out there, I certainly don't mind reading it and learning from it. I appreciate your taking the time to so thoroughly explain to the depth that you did. I have what I feel is a reasonable understanding of many things, a lot of times I need to have things laid out in front of me to help me to understand them better. You certainly have done just that. Many thanks for investing so much of your time. I am sure that others who have followed this thread will be appreciative as well. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-21-2007 02:42 Edited 09-21-2007 02:47
Let me throw another wrench in the mix. Maybe Im just stupid but it is my interpretation that there is an inherent max weave in D1.1.
For SMAW, if your weave is wide enough to allow solidification of the slag before coming back over it, Paragraph
5.30.1 will apply. It states that for previously deposited weld metal the slag shall be removed, and further states that applies
not  only to layers, but between successive beads. Restrictions on weave width would account for this as for instance,
a 3.2mm 7018 will typically go out to just under 5x before the starting point is solidified in full, and the slag will solidify
at around 3-4x at normal travel speeds. The intent of 5.30 is clearly stated, 'don't weld over solidified slag', and therefore
gives an inherent limitation to weave width which will vary by procedure (heat, travel speed etc).
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 09-21-2007 03:20
Hello Gerald, I wish to thank you also for putting out the information and effort to better explain this topic. D1.1 and the other associated codes are not the largest part of what I do, yet they do have a direct relationship and effect on many of the things that I teach. I try to understand code applications so that I can convey this information to students as they ask questions and try to understand what the significance of a code is as it relates to their welding. All of the information that you and Al have shared has given me that much more knowledge to further this end(I guess I should say journey and not end as this is an evolving topic). Once again thanks and regards, Allan
Parent - - By waynekoe (**) Date 09-21-2007 16:27
Good catch
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-22-2007 00:40 Edited 09-22-2007 00:58
I don't disagree that there is a practical limit to the width of the weave, but it isn't a limitation that is imposed by the code as many people state.

I made a bet with a radiographer that I could make a groove weld using a wide weave technique in the vertical position. The cover pass  was nearly 2 1/2 inches wide. The bet was that the final weld (I made the weld) would not meet the radiographic acceptance requirements. I won! The weld passed. Again, it isn't something that I would encourage, but a bet is a bet. The inspector stated that there was a code limitation on the width of the weave and that the wide weave would never pass radiography. I wouldn't have made the same bet had I been welding in the flat or horizontal positions. I may be illiterate, but I'm not stupid!

I used to drive the "stringer happy" pipe welders crazy when I would weld a 3/8 inch plate in the vertical position . using a single pass with 0.045 diameter flux cored wire.  Then I would toss the still red hot plate in the snow bank to cool it. The bend tests always passed and the fitters always bought lunch. The trick was knowing what the Ce was of the base metal.

The exercises just reinforces what an engineer once told me; "Al, I can always tell a welder, but I can't tell him much."

My only word of caution is that making inferences from the code can be a dangerous practice. It can cost an inspector his job and I've seen situation where it has. The code says what is says and nothing more and nothing less. Using paragraph 5.30.1 to limit the width of the weave is a stretch in my book. There is nothing in that paragraph that relates the width of a bead and "solidified slag or fused flux". I believe a "reasonable person" (a term often used by lawyers) would understand that the paragraph is addressing the slagging and cleaning of weld beads before depositing the next adjacent bead or weld layer. Then again, I'm not a metallurgist, engineer, or lawyer. I'm just an inspector trying to make a living and staying out of the court room.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-22-2007 00:57
I had this one argued on more than once occassion. A better than average welder can get a way with it. However; 5.30 is not an inference

From 3.0 standard terms and definitions:

deposited metal, brazing, soldering, and welding. Filler
metal that has been added during brazing, soldering or
welding

multipass weld. A fusion weld produced by more than
one progression of the arc, flame or energy source
along the joint.

pass. See thermal spraying pass and weld pass.

slag. A nonmetallic product resulting from the mutual
dissolution of flux and nonmetallic impurities in some
welding and brazing processes.

weld pass. A single progression of welding along a joint.
The result of a weld pass is a weld bead or layer.

Taken by definition, if it has time to solidify it's considered deposited. Therefore I have to believe there is a concern with paragraph 5.30 due to this.
There is no direct reference to limitation. However there is a direct reference to not passing over previously deposited weld metal that has solidified with associated slag. Therefore travel speed, heat, etc will be an inherent limitation on weave that vary depending on the procedure.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-22-2007 05:09
Oy Vey!!! Are'nt we approaching the limits to stretching semantics also here???
IMHO, limitations should not be written with a whole bunch of vagueness attached to it.
Straight foward says it best!!!

I mean after all, we are not lawyers and, I do'nt think the intent of the authors who write the codes only want the lawyers to have the exclusive ability to interpret the code so that it favors their arguments!!! Just my observation - FWIW. ;)

I believe if it was the intention of the authors to single out SAW the way they did,
it speaks volumes as to what their true intent was...
I'll just leave it at that -Capish?

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-22-2007 05:46
true we are not lawyers, but it is something that needs addressed. In the last few years I've run across a lot of wanna be code lawyers. These people stretch it to the nth degree the other way. It's called minimalism, and those people are real good at taking things out of context. The context in which Al spoke is probably fine and dandy, but it's my opinion that care must be taken in it. Al's probably a damn good welder, but do you really want some wanna be weld engineer seeing a post that makes it seem like there are no concerns or limitations at all for weld weave? Common sense and years of experience tells people like AL what he can do and cannot, take those two things away and you have the makings of a distaster. That was the purpose of my post, to show a reason for concern, and what I consider a conflict in the code. The day in age in which you can depend on someones honor and skill are over, you leave the code open like that and it will be abused.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-22-2007 22:16 Edited 09-23-2007 04:33
Hi CWI555!

I understand your points as well as I understand Al's perspective also.
However, Al's more than just a "Good" welder!! he's also a TPI like yourself, has been for quite some time, and from my perspective - has never shown to me that he's a "wanna be weld engineer"

I believe strongly that you've been just a tad bit quick to draw your guns at Al in this discussion, just my take! Guy's like Al & Joe Kane have been there and done that in blazing a trail for us younger folk that follow in their footsteps... In other words, I'm not going to defend Al here even though some may think so -No!!!

I believe Al's very capable in doing so all by himself... However, to dismiss one of the "Gem's" in this forum who contributes to this forum more than most people can fathom, really starts me up in a way that leaves me in a conundrum because, I also consider you a friend, and I also respect your knowledge and contributions to this forum also.... What I'm really trying to say is, I feel like I'm the middle brother in a family dispute among siblings and Al's my big brother, You are my little brother most likely in age only!!!

So here's my message to both "Brother's in arms" - ENOUGH ALREADY!!!! CHILL OUT!!! I get both of your perspectives, and they both expose some of the continuing ambiguities that have always crept into most of the welding codes that I've had the privilidge to review and work with. ;) Sometimes I would wish that the code committee's would become a bit more "Tenacious" in alleviating & clarifying some of these continuing ambiguities so that interpretations would not lead into discussions like this one.

Respectfully,
Henry 
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-23-2007 02:55
Never said he was a wanna be. Nor was it the intent to "dismiss" anyone, nor was it a "drawing of guns". I have nothing but respect for Al. If it was taken that way I apologize. However; I do have a different take on it, which was the sole purpose of the post.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-23-2007 14:25
This is exactly why we come to the forum. Raise a little dust and get the chatter and discussions going.

I thank you for bring it to my attention that "my words" are as those spoken by "God". I never dreamt that because I made a comment or observation anyone would consider them to be any more then what they are intended to be, my opinion.  With a few kind words I now know why none of my hats fit my swollen head. I truly hope that isn't the case. I would not want anyone to make an important decision based on anything that I write in this forum. What I write is simply my humble opinion. Please don't get offended at my sarcasm, it is meant to break any tension that arises during our conversations. It's just that I really don't take myself that seriously and I don't want to see this forum become anymore than a place to swap stories, lies, and our personal opinions. In this forum, my opinion is worth exactly what you pay for it; nothing.;)

As I stated in my post, I'm not recommending making weave beads of unlimited width, nor am I recommending tossing a welder's qualification test plates in the water or snow bank as I did. I performed those antics as a "show and tell' to demonstrate that there are many things we hear as welders that are not founded on reality or code requirements as is often stated. They were intended to "humble" a particular pipefitter and a radiographer that thought they were God's gift to the building trades and to get them to pay for coffee on those cold winter mornings as well as get a few good laughs at their expense. Nothing like a little rivalry to make things interesting! I'm not above pulling a practical joke to make a point. One time I told a "newbie" inspector that he couldn't use magnetic particle testing to test a weld that had cooled. The welds had to be tested while they were still "red hot". He went back to his supervisor and told him he couldn't test the welds. Of course he got his facts straight and let me know in no uncertain terms that he didn't appreciate my joke. That's when I told him that had he received the proper training from his company and had he been qualified and certified in accordance with the project requirements, he would have known I was pulling a fast one on him. At that he and I were both laughing and that's when he decided to become an Ironworker, "because we were the one's that had all the fun". Boy, did he have a rude awakening coming! That's what working in the field is all about, having a good time while making a good living and doing our best to get the job done right.

How many times do we hear welder and others say the purpose of preheating is to drive the moisture out of the base metal? How many times do we see other materials such as aluminum or austenitic stainless steel preheated because the welder and other in the fabrication team don't understand some pretty basic metallurgy? And how many times have we encountered inspectors and others that use "it's in the code" to buttress what they say knowing full well the welder doesn't have access to the code and probably couldn't tell you the color of the cover of the code book.

I have no difficulty when someone places limitations on the welding operations such as the of the width of a weave bead to control travel speed, heat input, grain size, notch toughness, slag inclusions, etc., or what they have learned from their experience, but pleasssse, don't tell me it is a code requirement.

As knowledgeable individuals, we have a responsibility to provide information based on our experience, our knowledge, and yes, the code if it actually does have limitations imposed. However, making mandates by inference; no, sorry, I can't buy that one. As I said, formulating requirements (as a third party inspector) by inferring what the code says or means gets very dicey very quickly and gets many inspectors in deep trouble because once the opposing side feels you are stretching to make a case, the inspector loses all credibility.

Don't make the inference that I am against the concept of utilizing the knowledge that is obtained by attending the "School of Hard knocks". There is nothing more valuable than experience, but that's what it is, lessons learned from experience. As an inspector, that experience can be a solid basis for knowing what to expect and what to concentrate the inspection efforts on. If the individual is responsible for in-house quality control he will know what needs to be controlled over and above what the code mandates. As a third party inspector, it benefit's the inspector and the client to stick to what the code says and leave the "inferences" to the lawyers. The bottom line is that the individual's limits of responsibility dictate where the line is drawn. As the fabricator's QC or a consultant working on behalf of the client, you can draw as many inferences as you want provided the requirements of the code aren't corrupted. As a third party inspector you are pretty well bounded by what the code actual states.

Last word; CWI555, I try not to be offended by anyone's opinion especially if they disagree with me. I enjoy a good discussion and as you said, nothing I say should be taken as a personal attack on anyone's position. I may not agree with you or someone else, but rarely have I encountered anyone's comments that were without merit. You make some very valid points and it is a pleasure discussing them here with you and everyone else that participates.

All together now, "Amen".

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-23-2007 17:23
I believe Henry pointed out that my words could have been interpreted as "spoken by God" which was the further est thing from my mind, as was any thought of your words being the same. It simply wasn't on my mind. What was on my mind is that the code specifically prohibits welding over slag. I'll defer the weld weave as mentioned to the lawyers as noted. I will note that I never said there was a specific limitation, There is no code with a "specific" limitation, nor could there ever be because the numerous filler metal/base material combinations possible. 7018 vs CrNiMo-3 for instance.
The limitation is derived from the prohibition of welding over slag in D1.1. However; even in that, codes such as Section I do not have a specific prohibition that I am aware of. There is also a difference between expressing and opinion and imposing the same. It's my opinion that there is an inferred limitation, but as you said, it's a slippery slope and one I would not impose on a project without a clear statement in black and white. If you read my post again, I never made the statement that I would impose it on anyone. What I will impose is what goes down on the PQR and subsequent WPS. Which is all a TPI can comment on, anything else is stepping into the engineers shoes and a sure fire way to be run off as a TPI. If it's tested and certified let it eat.

In saying that, and as you said, my opinion is just that my opinion and not to be taken as gospel by anyone. I don't take offense at anyone who expresses their opinion, and hope that no one takes offense when I express mine.

In the years of doing this, I've ran across numerous "gods gift" type persons as you've mentioned. For those people I bid my time and wait, sooner or later they will insert foot and chew vigorously. Examples of this are calling UT rejects due to sound trapping in the backing bar, RT rejecting welds in .050 inconel plate because of a diffraction line, rejecting for MT Indication on 304SS (obviously wasn't supposed to be doing it to start with), and a host of others.
For the UT, simple math was enough to show him the errors of his ways, for the RT a macro etch, for the MT I didn't waste time the guy was an idiot and was sent packing after he informed me I was an idiot and that MT was a normal exam on 304SS.

As for preheating to drive out moisture I've heard it to many times, as well as the AL, SS, Ti, and about every other alloy. Improper application of heat is rampant in the industry "in my opinion". However; the worst offender of this are those individuals out there who think "ALL" rods should be kept at 250F including 5P. Which btw is something AWS needs to address in their seminars for the CWI.

As for the "it's in the code" to buttress one or the other argument, I've seen that more times than I care to admit. It's one thing to actually have it, its another all together to impose something that has absolutely no basis. I can understand having a different interpretation of a specific paragraph or two, but I've seen many cases of no basis whatsoever either inferred or real. For instance, one particular group informed me that it was ok to accept a code rejectable RT indication if the UT said it was ok and vs verse (in reference to ASME VIII div 1 UW51). In doing so they showed me a total lack of understanding of the two methods among other things. Inversely, I had a group tell me there is no code that allows "cracks" of any length for which I referred them to ASME code case 2235-9, API 620 Appendix U, and RP2x.

In short your absolutely correct to state that there is a large number of people out their drawing code quotes out of their A** that don't exist in any shape  form or fashion.

In reference to the consultant, I'd have to have a different opinion on that one. A consultant would in my opinion have to be especially careful even more so than the TPI, and had better have reams of insurance before they open their mouth.

In closing, I hope it's understood that I have a high level of respect for you based on the knowledge displayed in your post. Again it was never the intent to "slam you" or otherwise mean something negative, despite Henry's take on it :) (no offense Henry) It was simply an expressed opinion.

"AMEN"

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-23-2007 18:23 Edited 09-23-2007 18:35
Your comments regarding the misapplication of NDT reminds me of an incident that took place several years back.

I was hired to qualify some welders and welding procedures on aluminum for a military application. Of course the client wanted to give me the "nickel" tour of the facility. One of the high lights was a stop in their NDT area. They made the comment that they had several Level III and a couple of Level II technicians. Where upon I learned that the testing of welded aluminum struts using the wet magnetic particle test method was the fast means of testing the struts.

I asked the government representative how long this test method had been used. His reply was that they had been using the test method for several years. I asked if they ever found any bad welds?

"No, this company has some of the best welders I've seen!, They have never found a cracked weld yet!", was his reply.

In the weld shop an inspector was performing solvent removable visible dye penetrant test. Or as I would say, the "spray on, spray off" penetrant method. The inspector would spray the area of interest with the penetrant, count to ten (maybe) and flush off the excess with a spray of solvent/remover until there was no discoloration in the excess running down the side of the test piece. Once again, I could not resist, I asked government representative what type of problems did they discover using that particular technique?

"Rarely do we find a problem with their welds. On occation they might find a crack, but when they do, it's a beauty.", was his observation.

Ah yes, the issue of in-house qualification and certification of NDT personnel rares it's ugly head!

Why is it that we remember the bad things we see and soon forget all the good things seen?

I like your style Gerald, I do believe we agree on more issues than what we disagree on. I agree that you never said that it was a code requirement. My responses were not directed toward you in particular, but to the inspectors I've encountered in the field that like to recite the code paragraph for paragraph from memory. Usually, incorrectly, but that never seems to phase them. My reply is typically, "How would you like to bet a coffee that isn't what the code has to say about that?"

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-23-2007 21:39
Wet mag on aluminum? Dear Lord... Thankfully, that's one I haven't seen. Those kind of inspectors make you wish for some clorox in the gene pool.

You asked a question I'll be pondering for some time. Why do we remember the bad things and not the good. It's a damn good question.

As said, I got nothing but respect for you. I can't say the same for idiots who like to quote the code from memory. I've been working to ASME, NAS/mil stds, AWS, API, and a myriad of other codes over twenty years, and I still look it up every time, except for when it's incorporated in a procedure in which case I look it up the current revision and go from there. Although these days I find I'm doing more of the revising than looking up in it.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-24-2007 01:23
Hello Gerald;

Clorox in the gene pool. I like that.

You must be doing something right! You don't need a well deserved slap on the back and an "atta boy" from the likes of me. However, you'll get one anyway because I like the way you take a stand and then substantiate your position based on the code and what you know to be true.

I suspect that you, like me and several others that congregate on the forum, enjoy a good discussion and like to kick up the dust a bit!

I've eaten humble pie before, more than once and I'm sure I will again. However, an inspector with a thin skin or one that doesn't learn from their mistakes doesn't survive very long in this business. Some people talk to themselves because they believe that is the only way they will ever get an intelligent response. I hope that isn't my case; that I've been talking to myself all these years! I just hope I never get to the point where I can't learn something new from someone else.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-24-2007 13:01
"I learned that the testing of welded aluminum struts using the wet magnetic particle test method was the fast means of testing the struts.

I asked the government representative how long this test method had been used. His reply was that they had been using the test method for several years. I asked if they ever found any bad welds?

"No, this company has some of the best welders I've seen!, They have never found a cracked weld yet!", was his reply."-quote

Al & Gerald,

That is some scary stuff right there.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-24-2007 21:02
Fortunately, thing like this usually get straightened out in short order. This one did.

Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-23-2007 21:20
None taken.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-24-2007 04:34 Edited 09-24-2007 04:52
"Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right!!! Here I am - stuck in the middle with them!!! :) :) :)"
Remind me to put on me waders the next time I get in between you two, because the s#@T really started to rise when the both of you started to talk as if "Denial" is'nt a river in Egypt!!!;) ;) ;)

I mean talk about two peas in a pod!!! An most utmost display of Super intellectual dysfunctional syndrome...
Remember the last phrase I quoted and I assure you, your feet will always be on solid ground. ;)

You want to talk about being superintellectually dysfunctional??? Technically I'm now at the combined age of 94 years old... Does that make me wiser or older than Al or Gerald??? NO!!! but, I've been through more trying times than both of them combined or any one of them could handle... Does that make me smarter than them ??? No!!! but I sure have alot more experience than they could ever understand, and that my friends - I'll take to the bank!!!

So there you go, talk is cheap and actions & experiences speak volumes!!! However, when one starts to get into the habit of talking down to a certain classification of people that for all intensive purposes, are the ones that put money in their pockets because they think they can, or it's funny and they like practical jokes, well to me, they're nothing but a bunch of CLOWNS that think they are GOD's gift to the industry!
Gimme a Friggin Break!!!! Now my guns are drawn!!! SGFO!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By pax23 (**) Date 09-24-2007 17:19
The only place I have seen a limitation which is a ratio of weld bead width to eletrode diameter is in the A5 documents. This limitation shows up in some A5 classification tests which the filler metal manufactures must run. The ratio is 2-1/2 weld bead/eletrode.

However, this is only for A5 filler metal tests. How the idea got out that this applies to general applications codes is unclear to me. It does not.
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