317LMN to A36

Date 11-27-2006 16:33

Henry,
Due to the difference in these alloys, and the greater possibility of cracking attributed to the difference of thermal expansion and contraction, maybe you should consider a 309LMo at a much more less expensive choice.

Chuck

By MNSTRBLDR (**)

Date 11-27-2006 20:04

So there would be a possible cracking issue using the Inconel for these welds? We might have a surplus of the Inconel so if this would work, it would save us from buying different filler for just these welds. Henry

By chuck meadows (***)

Date 11-27-2006 20:41 Edited 11-27-2006 20:47

Henry,
As you said, there is a "possible" cracking issue. I didn't mean to imply that unless you use the 309LMo that you would encounter cracks. If I gave you that impression, I apologize. You can certainly use the Inconel nickel alloys all day long withour any cracking issues IF you are cognizant of the "possibility" of cracking issues. I will say this, that if you weld and use a light, or shallow, weld bead, you will have a greater chance of cracks, especially solidification cracks. You just need to be more careful if using a nickel alloy when welding pure austenitics to carbon steel. Plus, I was just giving you an option at a much less expensive filler metal, but if you have a surplus of the Inconel it would be OK to use it. The 309LMo has a ferrite of approximately 12-18FN that would greatly help eliminate the possibility of solidification cracks. Sorry for any confusion.

Chuck

By MNSTRBLDR (**)

Date 11-27-2006 22:59

No problem at all Chuck. I just wanted to clarify before I could tell the engineer one way or another. I think we'll try the Inconel as long as we know we have enough to finish the rest of the ductwork. If we encounter problems, I at least know where to start looking for answers. Your input is greatly appreciated and believe me, I will never second guess you. You and the rest of this forum are an invaluable tool for those of us who need such technical answers so often. At most companies, you have a head of Quality Assurance at the main office, and others under them at different jobsites or wherever that can contact the head of QA and get a backing for all the questions that arise. I do not have such a thing and I am trying to answer about 5 engineers welding questions, as well as spot check welders for usually 5-6 different companies that don't have their own QA program and things like welding procedures are foreign to them. I inspect everything from pipe to structural iron to tanks to ductwork to everything in between. So basically, you guys are my QA backing. Pretty much when it comes to welding, everybody listens to me for the most part so no matter where these techincal answers come from, that's my job so they atleast have someone to blame later. Sorry about the long post, I just wanted to show my need for this great resource. I couldn't do my job without you guys. Thanks. Henry

By CWI555

Date 11-28-2006 03:13

If you have a surplus of inconel, maybe you should consider sitting on it and buying some 309LMo. If you had the inconel to begin with, you had to have a job for it. Giving the expense of the inconel, maybe you should wait and utilize it on the next project you have that requires it. Just a suggestion.

By chuck meadows (***)

Date 11-28-2006 13:30

Gerald,
That's not a bad idea since the cost of nickel is not projected to drop anytime soon.

CM

By MDG Custom Weld (***)

Date 11-28-2006 17:53

I second that Chuck!!!! I think the Nickel Cartel has that market right where they want it, and it ain't going to move down! Heck, they are worse than the oil cartel when it comes to putting money the their own pockets!

By chuck meadows (***)

Date 11-28-2006 19:01

I have an Engineering friend that works for the Nickel Insitiute and he says that nickel "should taper off in the somewhat near future" but predictions are to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it to come down. That is one of the reasons stainless steel has such high surcharges. But we (Avesta) only pass along the surcharge that we are charged, not one penny more. Still, it's almost ridiculous how high nickel, and molybdenum, are going.

Chuck

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 11-28-2006 19:09 Edited 11-28-2006 19:12

You wouldn't believe this Chuck, but I went out for quotes on some 2 pound spools of carbon steel wire the other day... 0.035" diameter ER70S-6 (ASME III compliant) for orbital GTAW... $71.00 a pound!!!!!!!!!!

By MDG Custom Weld (***)

Date 11-28-2006 19:25

WOW Jon, I'll buy it for you, mark it up to ...hummmm...say $25 and we will both be making good money!!!
No, just kidding, but really that seems 200x high for 70-S6 wire. We are less than $1.00/ lb for our bulk packs (900lb drums)

By chuck meadows (***)

Date 11-28-2006 19:34 Edited 11-28-2006 19:38

Yeah, even CS prices are going up. Of course, bulk rates are better than smaller quantities, thank goodness. Jon's situation probably involves having to be in compliance to ASME III, which I imagine involves a lot more than just spool wire off the shelf.

Chuck

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 11-28-2006 19:40

Yep, need compliance with Section III and only wanted about 60# just for a "small" job. Hopefully when we get into our larger orders the pricing will come down... My recent experience has been carbon steel wire / rod for nuclear work is considerably more expensive than same size stainless counterparts. Speculating it may still have something to do with China buying up world scrap market... ?

By MNSTRBLDR (**)

Date 11-29-2006 13:22

Yeah, I think we'll keep our Inconel wire for a rainy day and get a couple of rolls of the 309LMo

By MNSTRBLDR (**)

Date 01-11-2007 14:48

OK Guys, we just started welding our stiffener rings with the 309LMo. We are having a terrible time with them. The wire doesn't want to "stick" to the C.S. at all. It's like trying to weld to a magnet or something, it just repels it. If you do get an ok bead, we get solidification cracks. Please help. Thanks, Henry

By js55

Date 01-11-2007 18:48

That $71.00 a lb is outrageous even for ASME III stuff. Often it is the exact same stuff you buy under std ASME spec. Impact testing is the primary difference. They want you to pay for the testing. If you're looking for small quantities try Weldstar. They know what they are doing in ASME III.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 01-11-2007 20:30

lol, my quote at $71/lb was from WeldStar!!! Now, going up to 10lb spools made all the difference in the world...

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 01-11-2007 20:06

Have you removed the mill scale from the A36 ? We are using this on 317LM to A36 on some FGD ductwork.

By MNSTRBLDR (**)

Date 01-11-2007 20:14

Yeah, we tried grinding it clean with no difference. The duct is 1/4" and the stiffener is 1/2". The C.S. shouldn't need preheated, should it? We don't have any 309L GMAW wire so we used 309L FCAW Dual Shield and it worked great. Chuck Meadows has informed me that there should be no detrimental effect to using this wire, so that's what we're using now. I wish I could figure out the problem. All we did was change wire, unplug the pulse pendant, and set the machine to the WPS parameters for S.S. FCAW and BAM, fixed. I don't get it.Henry

By CWI555

Date 12-01-2006 02:32 Edited 12-01-2006 02:38

Food for thought;

Natural gas is an up an coming energy source. As we speak, multiple LNG Gasification and Re-gasification plants are in progress and considerably more on the way. The wisdom of the day is the plate should be 9% Nickel. E(R)NiCrMo-3, E NiCrMo-4, E NiCrMo-6. are some of the fillers being used. The problem that I see is this, as long as oil prices go up, governments and corporations will be looking to alternative energy needs, and with the shear volume of natural gas in the world as compared to oil, it becomes feasible and profitable to built multiple LNG trains and tanks. This is going to tax the Ni/Mo market above and beyond what it was prior to the past few years. Normal supply levels will have to be adjusted due to this new niche demand. In comes supply and demand pricing. NI and Mo will not be coming down any time soon in my opinion, but rather be going up in parallel with the price of oil. Again, this is above and beyond what was the normal supply levels. Until someone comes up with a better material for cryogenic temperatures, I think it's going to be going up. I base a lot of this on sourcing problems for plate and wire that I have been witness to, and have had reported. Maybe Im wrong but it's something to think about.