Where have all the welders gone

By tsalagi (*)

Date 12-27-2006 08:02

here in oklahoma they passed a "right to work" law. it hasn't helped our cause much.

By old-N-ugly (*)

Date 12-27-2006 11:15

We all have the right to work, it is our constitutional right, we also have the right to organize.

The right to work statute was a cover up by politicians who were in bed with big business so that business could bust the unions. As a patch to that fine piece of legislating they implemented the prevailing wage, now what is prevailing wages, it is a right to let non union companies bid government jobs at the same wages as union shops, just for fairness ya understand, and all the time the welders got the shaft, a lame excuse so they didn't have to pay union wages. I don't know how many times I got into down right arguments with that clause.

By chuck meadows (***)

Date 12-27-2006 14:20

I agree with you 100%. Unions offer apprentice programs, teaching them how to do things the right way, all the while earning a good pay check. The "right to work" law has forced the skilled union workers to have to lower the pay scales in order to compete with businesses that hire less skilled, and in a lot of cases, undocumented, workers. The explosion at the B-P Amoco plant, the 3rd largest refinery, in Texas City last year is a good example of this.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 12-27-2006 14:27 Edited 12-27-2006 15:37

Right on.

We do have a right to work and a right to organize. Do individuals who own a buisness also have similar rights?

My experience is that for the most part those *evil,* *greedy* corperations have not had any problem paying skilled labor to do a job for at least the last 25 years.

The problem is that those evil corporations don't want the union represented floor sweepers and toilet scrubbers to make $22.20 an hour and the union forklift drivers to make $25. Many *Skilled* labor unions began representing unskilled labor in the 60s and 70s and the cost to business is untenable. (one of the more true reasons some union jobs go overseas)

Furthermore, too many unions demand that if a machinest (here is a clue to the union) is finished with the project on *his* machine he may read the newspaper with his feet up on the desk for the duration of the shift rather than be cross uitilized at another workstation.

Those two items are what is driving unionisim in America down the toilet.

While I'm not crazy about 75% of my union dues dollars being spent on political contributions to candidates who favor nothing less than a Socialist agenda it in itself is not the real problem. (less than 25% of dues dollars go to collective bargaining in AFL/CIO represented units) Besides if I really don't like it I can find another job eh? I think that is where our true freedom lays.

There have been times when I supported my family by working in sweat shops for less than $5 an hour as a MIG welder. 12 hour days, no OT, no benefits. And If that job wasn't there I would have had no work at all. For me personally a non union sweatshop is a better alternative than the unemployment dole.

My two cent rant.

By old-N-ugly (*)

Date 12-27-2006 18:52

Yes business does have the right to run their operation and make a profit, but how much is profit and how much is greed?

I agree with what you say full heartedly about the early years of unionism, in the past the 1930s to 1960s they were adapted and run by corrupt individuals who lobbied politicians for their personal gain here again the worker suffered at their hands but gained little in monetary wages with some benefits, if you were in the business at those time you will remember their battle cry for unit bargaining, "forget the wages and increase the retirement benefits". Enough said.

Yes a sweat shop was always better than the "unemployment dole" it worked for me and put meager food on the table and kept some of the creditors off of my porch.

As you stated about the machinist, this example is one of the biggest reasons business has fought so hard to bust unions, through their legislative rights, I bear witness to a lot of atrocities put on by seniority rights with in union work places (their big selling point).

Still skilled welders and steel fabricators are disappearing from the work place. Working with metallic objects is dangerous, hard work with little reward, but with out the unions their would be no health care, minimum wages, safety programs, we as workers owe this to union representation whether they were corrupt or not.

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 12-30-2006 01:50

Hey Guys,
I guess I'll "piddle in some Wheaties" too. Love to vent once in a while. I have to fully agree with Lawrence, CWI555 and jon20013 regarding unions and what they have created and undermined in the last 25 years or so. I was in the UAW, IBEW, and a few others in my earlier years. I remember when unions did help in getting better wages and benefits, but then gradually, as with most greed, went totally overboard with their political agendas, favoritism and priorities. I got away from them 20 years ago and never regretted it. Since then, I worked in a couple union shops and refused to join. After that, I never worked in another union shop. Over my span in the unions, I watched all the lazy, loafing bums who never produced 10% of a days' work get the same pay as those who did their 100-110% each day. I saw all those worthless bodies get protected by the unions time after time. Do I sound bitter? You bet I'm bitter. I always gave 100% with quality and quantity as I was raised by parents who instilled values and ethics regarding all facets of life. Those type of parents are fast disappearing with each generation.

A prime example are the autoworkers, recently in the news, regarding the 20,000+ who sit idle in some hall waiting, doing nothing, and getting paid!!!! Talk about bankrupting a company that constantly shows billions in losses each year!!!! Is that what the unions are supposed to do?

The company I work for presently has always been non-union, and pays a wage according to the value you are. I am the highest paid employee because of my work ethics, productivity, and the cost-effectiveness I provide. I EARNED my wage by giving productivity and profitability to the company. I had to provide the facts to justify a wage increase....and I never was refused the raise I asked because of the value I gave. I had to fight for just me...no one else. AND....I really like my job!!! If the company is profitable.....I still have my job as do all the others.

OK.....I vented.....Denny

By RANDER

Date 12-27-2006 22:19

In this great country we also have the right to go into business for ourselves if we dont like workin for the man. Should a business run a 3-8% margin just to keep the employees happy? Remember someone put in more money and more time than the 10-12 hrs a day were puttin in to get that business up and running. Possibly working for many years by themselves not seeing the wife and kids so they could make a better future for their family not give the money to charity or some guy who feels hes doing a great job because he shows up for work on time most of the time. As far as big business goes they have obligations to shareholders who are investing their money and want a return. Thats their family looking for a future. The politicians want big money, the business want big money, and Im sure all of us here want big money thats why we have trained, schooled, etc. to get ahead so we can eat a steak, drink a beer, and watch the game on a nice tv. Maybe own a boat to go fishin and take the kids to the lake in the summer. Is THAT greed? Maybe we should not be so greedy and sell the boat, tv, distill some grain alcohol, eat some rabbit and listen to the game on the radio. (Sorry if that applies to any of you). As long as we are being treated fairly by businesses large or small why should you care how much profit they are making?

Just another viewpoint with no harm meant. And no im not a business owner, just a guy like you all who sees the other side. Maybe someday ill open a business but not welding, Im thinking Tacos and Beer and lots of big screen tvs.

By old-N-ugly (*)

Date 12-27-2006 23:22

RANDER
I love your candor on this subject. We all see the other side to this article and relish in finding a middle ground.

As a child growing up your parents worked to put you through school as an adolescent you learned some life values different than your parents put instilled into you. So who paid for your education was it the employer who paid your family or was it your family who negated the Boat, beer, TV?

Employers like to have trained personal work for them, ones they can count on from day to day. Should they pay to train you or should you pay to train yourself? Through out history there were craftsmen who passed on their trade to younger persons, as it stands now, well in the resent past, there was no one to train the younger generation except through schooling, industry demanded that people be trained and the unions did just that and still do. Along comes the union busters and gobbled up the skilled help for low wages when times got rough, thanks to the government intervention and their right to work laws.

Times get hard for us all but there has to be a better middle ground, we see that their isn't now days and now industry is clamoring for trained people, they invest heavily in robotics and streamlined working conditions to speed production, who should educate the lowly old welder to enable him/her to function at their chosen way of production?

I am retired and the golden years are not so golden. That gives me a lot of free time to express myself.

By RANDER

Date 12-27-2006 23:53

I left a union job because it ultimately was not something I wanted to do (Teamsters). Got a job in a wharehouse went to school and cleaned boats on the side. I paid for all but $1200 of the school myself and still pay about $26.34/month to this day. Got into the field making way less than I thought, saved my money to take a class. Took an exam and passed, Took another and passed all on my dime. NOw I switched employers and this one sees enough potential that they are willing to foot the bill for the AWS CWI exam. Now I make alot more money but I didnt wait for anyone took just give it to me. We sometimes have to forge our own path and take what we want. (With all due respect im not trying to preach to a man many years my senior)

I do agree with you that business is competitive and big business and politicians are in bed together and we the little guys probably suffer the most.
Good Day Sir and enjoy that retirement.
Rob

By old-N-ugly (*)

Date 12-28-2006 07:14

A tip of the hat to you my friend, I do hope you become a CWI it is a grand profession, good luck in the years to come.

By Aldridge6670 (*)

Date 12-28-2006 14:10

What kills me is the place (job) I just left started welders out at 10.00 an hour after they put in the 90 working day probation no papers but good welders....Next day they hired 4 people straight through the door making 14 because they had papers. these men and girls they hired couldn't even tell me what a 3G position was and welds looked like trash undercut,perosity all it. Made me sick that was a greedy company with no brains you mention union they well there'll leave the room.

By old-N-ugly (*)

Date 12-28-2006 16:13 Edited 12-28-2006 16:16

When I started my career minimum wage was $.50 and hour, welders and ship fitters made $3.10 (union scale) an hour that was 6.2 times the minimum wage. Now minimum wage (depending on where you live) is $8.00 an hour a welder ship fitter makes $23.00 (union scale) an hour that is 2.27 times the minimum wage. As you can see what the non union job shops are paying their employees, and what the minimum wage is doing to the difference in career class.

It is only through the efforts of organizations like the AWS, ICC, AISC, SSTC ECT that they can intercede with training to better the work being performed, which can and does affect the wages paid. No matter how much is paid to an individual for their efforts and performance it has to be their abilities and self-importance to achieve a quality product, for the company in which they work. As a CWI, ICC certified inspector it has been my experience to see that a person who displayed gratification in the work he performed produced a far superior product. All of this goes out the window when one works for a sweat shop that their only concern is to get it out the door.

Go take the welder certification test for your welder process and procedures, you can contact any testing agency or contact a local union and take the test at their business facility, money well spent and more important you own the papers, job shops who pay for and test their welders are very reluctant to give that individual the paper work once he/she leaves company employment.

If anyone is interested here is my web site http://home.wbcable.net/oldnugly/index.htm

By CWI555

Date 12-29-2006 02:43 Edited 12-29-2006 02:51

*rant on*In my eyes, it's not about greed, or union vs. non union.
It's about honor, work ethic, integrity, national pride and the common good. There was a time in this country when those things drove the vast majority.
With those things in place, Americans built a thriving economy, "The" number 1 military, and an infrastructure that was the envy of the world.

Now it's about how much can be taken, instant gratitude, and a total disregard for the common good. The only thing we have left out of those things is the military, and if certain groups have their way, we won't even have that.

Greed is not a root cause, it is a symptom, and that applies to mega corporations and unions both. Both are guilty of greed and mitigating the
common man to just a number in a database. There is nothing wrong with making a profit, there is everything wrong with making a profit at the
expense of our children's future. Oil companies complain they are being sadly maligned and misunderstood. They point to re-investment and responsibilities to their share holders. If they were really concerned the CEO's of those companies wouldn't be accepting millions in bonus's just for showing up to work on time, or because it's Christmas. Does it really take 5000 people in office staff to manage 3000 workers? I can't think of any major corporation that isn't top heavy. It takes money to pay 100 million salaries for CEO's. Is there anyone who is actually worth that much money?

Unions are in the same boat. Unions have long since forgotten their purpose. If unions were to act on the behalf of their members rather than take large sums of money out of the coffer to support one or the other political party, maybe they would not be in the shape they're in. Someone should explain to joe pipe fitter why his daughter cannot have a needed surgery because union benefits have been eroded to the bone all the while some politician is receiving millions in campaign contributions.
How many union jobs have you gentlemen seen with bumper stickers and pins to support a candidate etc. To support a given party or person blindly is about dumb in my humble opinion.
Let us not forget the historical cases of corruption in the upper ranks.
Unions and big business are not any different when you look at the root causes.
Bring back the honor, work ethic, integrity, national pride and the sense of common good, and the symptoms will heal themselves.
Leave things as they are and it will be Americans trying to jump ship to other countries in hopes of getting a job.

By MBlaha

Date 12-29-2006 03:09 Edited 12-29-2006 03:13

Wow CWI555, excellent point of veiw. It is so sad to see so much of what can I get and produce just enough and just good enough to keep my job and complain because I am not getting more. And on the other side, how fast can we get these guys to perform and pay them less. I am all in favor of profit, but how much is enough. I maintain the philosphy, quality first, quantity will follow. Try to explain this to project managers and superintendents. And to the person preforming the work. It is time to show pride in what we do, and then improve the numbers.

Cudos to you my good man for saying what needed to be said.

Mike

By old-N-ugly (*)

Date 12-29-2006 04:23

Well stated CWI555, those are my sentiments also, without a doubt ethics, honor, and trust in god were our founding fathers thoughts when they formed the greatest nation the world on earth, I applaud you and your wisdom.

By litchko (*)

Date 12-29-2006 05:26

I've been in the union 44yrs& seen alot. Most unions today have training schools to teach their members any thing they want to learn,thats the name of the game today SKILLED LABOR.Wether your union or non union you must get paid the prevailing rate for the area your working in +your benifits(pension&welfare).I have seen a lot of nonunion contractors not paying the rate and not including the benifits package in their pay checks or they'll pay you the rate and not pay you your benifits it happens all the time.If it wasn't for the unions the rate wouldn't be what it is today.How many business pay their employees a pension or health ins.?I'm not a hard core union person and I'm not saying they don't got to bed with the politions thats the way it is in any business.I retired from my union 5yrs. ago& I draw a good pension(as a laborer foreman).I also taught welding at the training school.My health ins. ran out about 4yrs ago so I took another job in a private co.as a welder fabricator I was dot certified but I let my card expire.When I started welding for them they said I didn't need to weld that good,I said but that's how I weld.Weld with pride because your name is on it.I have welded with other welders who have gone to schools that can't weld for crap but expect to get paid big money but they have no pride,they don't last too long.Today good welders are had to come by.If you want the big money first you have to prove yourself& thath's all I've got to say about that.Regards Bob

By hogan

Date 01-02-2007 18:56

i don't know of any nation was made great by trust in any god

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 01-02-2007 19:03

I didn't read old-n-ugly's response as saying trust in god was a reason for making our nation great. I read his statement as simply stating those were the thoughts and belief's of our forefathers.

By JTMcC

Date 12-29-2006 15:48

Being a UA member, and having three daughters, and reading thru my insurance coverage I can't really find any situations where any of my daughters or "joe pipefitter's daughter" couldn't have "needed surgery". I've also never heard of such a thing happening to any of the hundreds of UA hands I know.
CW1555 you need to be more specific, where is this happening? What UA local? What type of "needed surgery" is not covered?
I'm looking for factual proof, not neat sounding hypothetical situations with no connection to reality. That's not the way to make a point with thinking individuals, it does work well with the "oh wow!" crowd tho.

JTMcC.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 12-29-2006 16:16 Edited 01-02-2007 19:21

I am neither Union basher nor Union advocate but I will relate a very bad experience I encountered with the last union I belonged to, which happened to be Plumbers, Pipefitters and Steamfitters Union.

We worked several miles outside of town on a nuclear plant, which was under construction at the time (illustrates how long ago this was)... anyway, my union brothers somehow found out that the mechanics who were employed by the bus company were non-union employee's. The brothers used to gather at the gates of the plant where we were all let off the busses each day and harrass all those riding the bus. This finally ended up with several union brothers pouring hot coffee, egging and punching those who got off the bus. Yes, this is an unfortunate incident to pass along, but a true story. I resigned from the union shortly thereafter and have never again worked on another union job.

In the case above, it's very difficult to see the correlation between Pipefitters, Plumbers and Steamfitters interest in assuring a bussing company employs only union employee's. It left a very sour taste in my mouth in spite of all the good things that particular union was known for.

EDIT: I know the above is likely to ruffle many union brothers (and sisters) feathers. It is truly not meant to be a "hit" against unions, only meant to illustrate the type of "bad" behavior that can, and will, cause a collapse of unions if endorsed or permitted by the Local Sections. In the case above, there were maybe only 100 out of several hundred local members involved.

EDIT# 2: Having said all of the above, I like many others, was fortunate enough to learn the basis of my current profession through a Union. I began my career with the Boilermakers, Local 104 in Seattle, Washington and owe an eternity of gratitude to the membership of that particular Union.

By Sourdough (****)

Date 12-29-2006 21:11

I told you guys, if you want to find all the welders: THEY'RE ALL IN RIFLE, COLORADO!

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 12-29-2006 21:19

Congrats on the new addition Sourdough, you've got those tax benefits down to a science! ;-)

Happy New Year to all... out til 2007, lol!

By CWI555

Date 12-29-2006 21:26 Edited 12-29-2006 21:29

I have personnel knowledge of it. Maybe there is something different in your local, I cannot speak for that, but I can speak for some instances in the locals around the southeast. One gentleman in specific used as a for instance. His son could not get a surgery needed to straighten his legs due to reduction in benifits. The man in question ended up selling his house to pay for it. Write what you wish JTMcC. I stand by what I wrote.

By JTMcC

Date 12-30-2006 16:03

Way too vague for me. An annonomous guy on the internet, using CW1555 as a "name", citing
"somewhere in the southeast", a guy you may or may not have even met. Way too vague.

Now if you can give me a specific or two, like a local number, I'll talk to some people from that local as I'd be very, very interested in any UA local where the benefit package wasn't paying for "needed surgery".

You may be absolutely correct, but without proof, or quite a bit more evidence I'm not buying it. I can pull up the health insurance coverage of the local number you provide and then my curiosity will be satisfied by the facts.

JTMcC.

By CWI555

Date 12-30-2006 16:16

You don't have to buy anything. Keep your head in the cloud.

By JTMcC

Date 12-30-2006 16:28

I'm pretty well grounded in the facts, and somewhat familiar with UA benefit packages and like I said you may very well be correct but you certainly haven't given enough information. If you are right I really want to know when and where this is happening.
But if I (or anyone else) believed everything posted on the internet (and your info like I said is very vague) we'd all be rolling in millions of dollars from Nigeria.
Without more specific info no thinking individual is going to put much faith in second hand annonomous stories in support of an on line arguement. No personal information is needed, I can get what I need with only a local number. It's up to you.

JTMcC.

By CWI555

Date 12-30-2006 16:45

The nature of my friends problem is the reason for discretion. I somehow doubt you would appreciate a friend posting personnel data and a way to track back who, and where he was.
Your statement here is in error and makes assumptions.
"I can pull up the health insurance coverage of the local number you provide and then my curiosity will be satisfied by the facts."

You don't have to buy anything, I don't have to show you anything, and after your statement about pulling data I sure as hell wouldn't tell you
anything. Call me what you will, but you and your thinly veiled attempt at baiting me into giving you information you have no right to can just
go back to the place from whence you came.

By JTMcC

Date 12-30-2006 17:03

Your arguement is falling apart before our very eyes. Like I said, no personal infornmation required. I can't, and I wouldn't if I could, access anyones personal medical info. I can however read a benefit plan book and those are redily available, not just to me.
If your local number is a state secret, so be it. Your story sounded fishy from the begining and is more so now.
Your reference to "baiting" (give me a break) and "call me what you will" (I haven't called you anything) statement along with the "whence you came" (get that from a Harry Potter book?) tell me you might want to pull the tin foil down around your ears a bit more ; )

JTMcC.

I can also talk to people from the local and get a very good idea of how good, or bad the coverage is, and if people are indeed going without needed medical care.

By CWI555

Date 01-02-2007 16:54

I realize I've rattled your union feathers, which was far from the intent of my original post. However; with this recent post of yours, it's become especially clear that you only wish to argue. that I will not do except to say the word whence is in the dictionary,
From: Mirriam Webster online.
Main Entry: 1whence
Pronunciation: 'hwen(t)s, 'wen(t)s
Function: adverb
Etymology: Middle English whennes, from whenne whence (from Old English hwanon) + -s, adverb suffix, from -s, genitivesingular ending; akin to Old High German hwanAn whence, Old English hwA who
: from what place, source, or cause <then whence comes this paradox -- Changing Times>
- from whence : from what place, source, or cause <no one could tell me from whence the gold had come -- Graham Greene>

I am sorry that you are unaware of that. I've never read a harry potter book but I believe you have since you reference it. Pulling tin foil down around your ears? I don't exactly understand that one or why one would put a tin foil hat on their head, but I gather it has some meaning to you.
This will be my last post to you as this has digressed far from the original point. I am sorry about your ruffled feathers, it was not the intent.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 12-29-2006 21:27

Very well said indeed! Once we WERE the greatest nation on Earth. Today I'm uncertain. Whether we are or aren't it's high time to get OFF the bandwagon of banging our own drum professing to be and do what made us great to begin with; build innovative products of high quality and reasonable costs, produce automobiles that will exceed Asian quality levels and fuel efficiency and LIVE WITHIN OUR MEANS (speaking both as individuals AND as a NATION). Once we make those things happen we will go back to being what our fathers and grandfathers believed in.

By CWI555

Date 12-29-2006 21:59

Jon; You and some others have made some great points.

A wise man (my grandfather, WWII navy vet, survivor of pearl harbor and a Japanese kamikaze strike on his turret, and a teamster for 30 years before his passing) once told me something earned is something appreciated, something given is soon forgotten.
We as Americans are in the midst of a generation and society that has been given a legacy, and they are selling it out bit by bit.
hundreds of thousands have died to provide that legacy, yet all you see is the "what have you done for me lately" attitude.
I think for myself, No corporation or union is going to tell me what to think. I still have that right, at least for now.

By tsalagi (*)

Date 01-02-2007 01:49

ya know, that makes me think about how many people say " i'm getting x dollars an hour" as opposed to " i earn x dollars an hour".

as well as most on this site, i earn my pay.

By RonG

Date 01-02-2007 12:26 Edited 01-02-2007 12:38

tslagi comes closer to answering the question than any one.

Say what you want but "at the end of the day" (that one gets a lot of use nowdays) it's all about $.

There are plenty of good welders out there this very moment working hard but not necessarily with a stinger in his hand. There is more demand for quality planning than producers.

How many times have you seen some one observe a welder at work and say "any one can do that" The demand is a lot greater for people that can get the product out the door and to the market. Management makes the assumption that quality is fine until a problem arises.

Think about. With out a product you have nothing to market. No market no income. Turning out the best product may give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling but selling more products at a better profit margin will increase you standard of living so you can afford the top quality product available.

I am pro union all the way but like any other good thing in life, by its own nature it is subject to abuse. Just like the notion that ISO 5001 will solve problems.

By CWI555

Date 01-02-2007 16:39

Thats a good point. What they get isn't always what they earn.

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 01-03-2007 07:54

That goes both ways-
some layabouts get more than they're worth and some hard workers get less.
Bill

By ryland

Date 01-25-2007 22:17

I have to say that is the most impressive statments, that I have heard in a long time! I am an instructor at a technical school in oklahoma, and my students are tought those ideals, on a daily basis, I think so there for i can, this country and foundation of it was built with those things in mind. Unoins are good for setting a wage for standards, which works for the lazy only, I would like to see them have to work as hard as I do and still complete the same day as I do. The japaneese, as a race are still in my books the ones to follow, for they do make the better items as a whole, they live in 4x4x8 cubicals and work 14 to 16 hours a day, just like I do, So keep on with your beliefs and I will look forward to more from you.

By old-N-ugly (*)

Date 01-03-2007 00:02

Wow I am sorry I went away for the last week, Happy New Year all. I hope you all had a great holiday and I really hope you have a very productive and rich new year in 2007.

It is hard to believe everything you read, or hear and even see without questioning it but I feel the attack on CWI555 by JTMcC is a bit impetuous that most everything in life has to be questioned, scrutinized and fondled before one can make a decision of its validity. What happens in one place doesn't necessarily happen in another, so generalities are quite acceptable as long as they are scrutinized and compared. So to attack someone for a particular statement is really out of order, thank you very much.

Yes Hogan my statement was for the thoughts of our forefathers, I do hope you have a faith in some supernatural being of some sort. Mine has been tested and approved.

As I started this post I was looking for some bright ideas on how to make a distinguished profession come back to life.

Way to go tsalagi that is about one of the prolific statements made on this post we don't always earn what we get and it holds true that we don't get what we earn. There are those out there that ride on the backs of their brothers and those that are brothers hauling them around, sounds like a good union thing to me, the unions have both and so does the public in general.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-03-2007 02:43

"Ischcabibble"!!!
This is what it has come down to!!!

Everybody here in this thread has made good points and some have decided to argue about some things totally unrelated to the original intent of this thread...

The "Crew" of "Fella's" whom I grew up with in my old neighborhood back in Queens had a name for it:
"Ischcabibble"!!! It was used when we all started to argue about something that was totally different from the original discussion, and man-o-man did it get ugly at times!!!

Then someone came up with this word "Ischcabibble" and lo and behold, we started to use it once the conversation got out of hand... As soon as it was repeated a few times by the individual that was warning us by using it, we all got the message and soon thereafter - every time any discussion started to steer into chaos, someone would simply mention the word "Ischcabibble" and like magic, we stopped arguing over whatever it was that sidetracked us in the first place!!!! Everyone collected themselves, and the animosity virtually disappeared because of our overriding passion for UNITY!!!

Remember: "UNITED WE STAND - DIVIDED WE FALL!!!" Let's stay united and agree to disagree without having to question each other's integrity CAPISH??? I'm not saying I'm perfect but, hey fella's we sure can try a little better than this!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent... Run Deep!!!

By tsalagi (*)

Date 01-03-2007 12:14

hey old-n-ugly,
you said that you were looking for bright ideas. well, i don't have any as of yet. but, i do know that it can be done. look at harley davidson, they turned their image arround.
maybe someone needs to start a t.v. show showing all of the cool stuff you can make and the technology behind it. a hand full of ex-wives and a prison record doesnt have to be a pre-requisite to be a welder anymore.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 01-03-2007 12:55

Just remember. Harley Davisdson only recovered after a large welfare bailout from the federal government!

By RonG

Date 01-03-2007 13:32 Edited 01-03-2007 13:35

Kinda one sided Joseph. Tell the whole story, not just your pet peeve. H. D. had to buy the buisness back and salvage it from the people that were destroying there name.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 01-03-2007 19:57

I admit I don't like Harleys. I don't know what "Whole Story" you are alluding to here. I know this will make me seem un-American, but here you go!

I call them overly loud, shuddering s***houses. I used to own a Harley '74 King of the Road back in 1967, and it was a nice, comfortable riding, long range touring machine, (except that it was too loud). It was also a "shop queen". My second Harley was a 900 Sportster "shop queen". When I went on a Blue Knights tour in Canada, the only machines that broke down were the Harleys. They were also so noisy that the Blue Knights made them take up position in the back of the parade line. We had Canadian Poiice escorts all the way, and one of the rear CP Escort Car drivers complained bitterly about their noise! The Gold Wings were so quiet that we could carry on a normal conversation between two side by side riders! Gas Mileage?!!?! Fuggedaboutit! Harleys are an environmental disaster.

In the early "70s, when the quality was taking an even steeper nosedive, parts that were supposedly made in the USA were being partly made (Machined) in Yugoslavia and Czeckoslovakia. (I know this for a fact. - I was friends with one of the West Germans involved!) The company was run into the ground by "shoddy" management. The American Workers were proud of their "shoddy" workmanship. Then, like Chrysler, they beg for a bail out from the US taxpayer, because they were in a hole and could not get out!! Oh! Boo Hoo! Here's some corporate welfare from Uncle Sucker.

So, I am sure there are other factors and stories and reasons and excuses, but as far as I am concerned, they deserved to go out of business simply because they couldn't compete quality wise with the Japaneese. They were overpriced back then and are overpriced today. Res Ipse Loquitur

By RonG

Date 01-03-2007 20:21

Well Joe that's what make this country great.

The fact that you can say what ever you think. But just so we understand each other I really don't give a flying hoot if you like them or not And I am not impressed with your tirade. I really don't understand the reason for it.

You really shouldn't claim "Res Ipse Loquitur" if you don't have all the facts. "That's what I'm talking about"

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-04-2007 06:42

I was told never to poke my fingers into the cage but sometimes I just can't help it.

The U.S. Federal Govenment has never had authority to bail out businesses.

They had no authority to take the sweat of my face to bail out:
   United and American Airlines after 911 (one of which was my employer at that time)
   Chrysler Motors (bless them for paying the money back)
   Harley Davidson (also was gifted many years of ultra-high tarrifs on imports over 700cc)

Those facts do indeed speak for themselves. (no other facts are pertenant)

I'm still glad Chrysler continues making cars and Harleys get 50 mpg and don't drip any more.

I'm also glad folks notice (and squawk) when Government exceeds it's authority when it comes to spending my money.

By old-N-ugly (*)

Date 01-04-2007 01:01

Well in my day Harley riders were hoodlums and thugs, but un liken to today's rides who ride a variety of machines they for the most part are common folks. It is my opinion that the reason folks ride Harley's is because they are American made machines, (all proceeds stay in America). As I think about our government and industry I ask myself how much of the money made really stays in America? How many businesses are ran by corporations from other countries? Kind of boggles ones mind when we think of these boondoggles, or are they really these?

When I started the trades I started as a driller for the rivet crews (there was only two in existence on the west coast) and progressed from there. Learning to weld takes practice, as does anything else one tries to learn) industry has to allow people the time to progress at any level of trades they want to achieve and then compensate them for their achievements as they progress. Unions need to drop seniority from their list of "good fella" clauses and inculcate a progression wage for achievements made. Achievements are; ability to perform a certain task, production of required items, quality of all things produced.

I know people who showed up everyday and on time but did little else, I also know people who showed up late a lot of times but produced more than required, also in the reverse so as I relate to it, production is quantity with quality all others is a mere pittance to the two Q's mentioned.

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 01-03-2007 18:38

Hey Henry(ssbn727),
You made my day!!!! Damn, I haven't heard that term used in a long time. Where I grew up, we all said that....It was "the word"....My pap related that term to all we youngsters in the early '50's and we never forgot when to use it.....quite appropriate for the direction of this thread......thanks.

Joe Kane.....I have to agree with RonG regarding Harley Davidson. I was weaned on a Harley at 12 and never stopped riding since. Harley had their problems and was taken over by AMF who really were the cause of the bad years in production.....BUT!!!! They did keep the company afloat until Harley bought it back and brought it back. My hat off to them for reviving an American heritage and classic motorcycle.

Denny

By tsalagi (*)

Date 01-04-2007 08:01

what i was getting at was that they changed the image of motorcycles. lawyers, doctors, and such are riding now. jesse james and o.c.c. got people into building and custom jobs. it's a huge buisiness now.
hgtv has almost every housewife thinking they are a decorator.
we have the history channel, the learning channel, the discovery channel, the food channel. why not a trades channel or something of the sort? or we could let the illegals take over like the bricklayers and carpenters did.

oh yea, loud pipes save lives!!!

By old-N-ugly (*)

Date 01-04-2007 16:56

Can we really learn trades as we sit on our duffs and watch TV? The idea might shake some minds and direct some youth in that direction but to learn one has to earn. I have learnd a few things from watching these TV channles my self, but they were mostly concepts of how to do it and a couple I have dug into deeper and learned the process of doing them. I never grew a flower before but now I care for (52) rose bushes. Who ever thought a welders number one sport would be Golf?

By hogan

Date 01-04-2007 17:42 Edited 01-04-2007 18:39

that would seem to limit your learning abilities. i think it is an interracial part of most educating systems
(sp)integral
it looks like my learning abilites are not so good