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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Aluminum Shrinkage... (locked)
- - By rebekah (**) Date 01-09-2007 22:07
I vaguely remember hearing that aluminum can shrink, not just the weld pool, when welded.  I am working on a large frame, AL 6061 and a length of 72.750 2x3", 1/8: wall sq tubing is missing an 1/8" in length.  This piece has two end pieces of the same material welded vertically on to it (making a long "U" shape) and then perpendicularly evenly spaced through the middle are 4 more pieces of the same material.  Vertically to these and attached to the long piece are 2" sq solid pieces that needed a preheat to get them to weld to the tubing.  A simpler, non visual expanation, this piece of 2x3, 1/8" wall tubing has alot of vertical welds attaching a bunch of stuff, ten vertical welds of two inches, eight of which have an addition inch of weld to a 2x2 solid piece.  Please tell me this is where the 1/8' of longitudinal length went.  This engineer is driving me crazy with bad design, bad timing of pieces, wanting me to work overtime through holidays and being generally nitpicky and anal.  The dead line is looming and he is getting worried.
Thanks for the help.

Rebekah
Parent - By RANDER (***) Date 01-09-2007 23:14
I think I know that engineer
Parent - - By yorkiepap (***) Date 01-10-2007 02:35
Hey rebekah,
Yes, there is a shrinkage factor involved with aluminum, especially with the length you indicate and the number of welded attachments on this length. Since aluminum is soft, the shrinkage parameter is larger than steel. When heated and welded, metal moves because it's structure is being altered. I find it a bit strange that an engineer would not take into consideration the structural changes that could happen with a length of this, and not give a bumper of perhaps 1/2 inch. After all final welding and modifications, any excess could be removed. I believe he goofed and I'd say just let him worry......Denny
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 01-12-2007 13:05
Where I work most of the engineers are young and relatively inexperienced.  This particular one seems to have been given his first big job and is not doing a good job at managing it (time, parts, labour).  This is the same one that came with 7075 deep water pressure vessel and wanted me to weld the key attaching component to it.  He didnt do any research about the weldability of the material (just that it was the perfect material for deep water pressures) and I ended up printing up articles for him about the danger of welding 2000 and 7000 series aluminum. 
He definitely didnt take in account any shrinkage in this project and keeps saying "Pretty good, only an 1/8" off.  Could you try to keep it less?"  I could kill him.  Thanks for the input, it helps to have some info from experienced welders out there to back me up when I am talking to these guys.

Rebekah
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 01-12-2007 13:18
An open letter from Elia Levi; Publisher of Practical Welding Letter, a monthly periodical

Dear Design Engineer,
I sometimes am baffled by the way some of your colleagues deal with projects that require welding design.
In a recent posting in an engineering forum on the Internet, a design engineer with unspecified previous experience, requested information regarding weld joint detail examples. It was as if the author said, "Just show me those details somewhere, and I will produce the best welding design quickly."
Another design engineer, who probably has some experience, asked the following question in a private communication: "I'm looking for general notes to place on a drawing. I'm making my first weldment drawing, and I don't have any background on the proper notes to place on the drawing to indicate grinding levels or filling the weld for painting or finishing processes."
Do these questions sound familiar to you? With all due respect, I believe that, unfortunately, both express a fundamental lack of insight or basic understanding of essential welding design requirements by professionals who may be highly competent in other related design activities.
A lack of proficiency in welding design most likely is rooted in engineering schools' complacency about the subject or in outdated management concepts. It is not surprising that when faced with their tasks, designers are pressed to produce, even if they are in good faith unaware of their shortcomings, and even when the process has no built-in quality check.
You may have gained a superb education in modern engineering design requirements and display an enviable expertise, having learned the trade from outstanding professionals, but can you honestly maintain to be an expert in everything?
Are You Sure You Know Enough About Welding?
In particular, would you consider yourself an expert in the following important subjects that need be considered when you design for welding?
·  Base and filler material properties and selection
·  Metallurgy and weldability
·  Restraint's influence on stress concentration
·  Design of joint details for fatigue resistance
·  Design for corrosion resistance
·  Design for durability in operating conditions
·  Design for manufacturability
·  Process expertise and influence on properties
·  Need for additional thermal treatments
·  Finish treatment selection
·  Weld sequences and distortion control
·  Weld joint dimensioning
·  Formulation of appropriate quality requirements
·  Design for safety
·  Design for inspectability
·  Design for maintainability
·  Integration of design and procedures to ensure minimum cost
·  Use of weld and inspection symbols and pertinent notes
·  Use of appropriate code requirements
Important Facts to Consider
Over-welding is not an asset; it is an expensive liability in terms of cost, residual stresses, and distortion.
The effect of joint design on fatigue behavior is important and cannot be overemphasized. Detail geometry and joint configuration are the most important variables affecting the fatigue life of a structural detail.
The fatigue strength of welded joints is relatively unaffected by the material's tensile strength. Although tensile strength may be affected by changes in alloys, heat treatment, or temper, the crack propagation rates are relatively insensitive to such changes.
Process selection can simplify the need for joint preparation. As an example, consider that electron beam welding is suitable for simultaneous double- or multiple-tier welding in separate positions.
Examples of recommended joint details are not the full story. It is important to review case histories of welded assemblies and of the modifications introduced to simplify and ease production, or to improve productivity and reliability.
Good design practices require knowledge of process requirements for easy and free access to joint faces. Learning and assimilating the basic principles involves being familiar with practical applications and having actual experience. Simply copying a few joint configurations in a drawing will not suffice.
Concurrent Engineering
You may be aware of concurrent engineering, a modern approach to design based on cooperative decision-making that harmonizes knowledge and experience of all relevant specialties. The central concept of concurrent engineering is that the multifunctional team brings together all of their specialized knowledge in making each decision.
A properly formulated engineering program should strive to engage a small team of professionals with a vast range of knowledge and experience in auxiliary disciplines to produce the best and most economic design.
It might be nice to adopt concurrent engineering that integrates all forms of specialization and uses relevant expertise in making each decision, but local and present constraints may not let you overcome the difficulties in adopting this policy.
Expert Consultation
Unfortunately, your company may press you to undertake wide and complex tasks for which you are not specifically trained. Your boss has confidence in you. How could you disappoint him or her and propose that you need to consult with experts, especially if those experts are not available in-house?
It is well-known that important programs, such as those involving aerospace hardware and industrial mass production of consumer items, rely on experts. What probably is not adequately appreciated with more limited projects is that a cooperative effort by a few individuals with complementary experience has a far greater chance of producing a balanced work than a single individual, however endowed.
Even when it is impossible to set up multidisciplinary task forces and design teams, a simple program should include reviews of all new design documents by experts in related professions or functions.
Heed these words from the AWS Welding Handbook Chapter Committee on Design for Welding: "... designers should refrain from relying entirely upon their own knowledge and experience, which may be generalized. They are encouraged to consult with welding experts whenever appropriate."
Does all this make some sense to you? Can you build on some of these concepts and try to produce better designs for welding?
Parent - - By XPERTFAB (**) Date 01-10-2007 05:40
Bingo!! You've got the picture clearly.  Now to prove it your engineer.  Heres a tried and true tip.  Cut a length of the same material as your constructed your frame to a precision length as can be easily measured with some type of precision measurement device you readily have.  If that is not availible to you, cut two pieces of exactly the same length with great care to have them be the same.  Then begin to add one piece of material at a time as is your final part so that you can duplicate the exact size and length of the welds you are placing on the finished product. As you continue in your work, have your engineer witness each completed step and either measure or compare against your second precison cut piece the direct change in overall length with each completed weld.  Pretty soon he/she  will be punching numbers on his/her calculator to try an determine the shrinkage rate for each weld.  Make sure you include both types of welded additions such as the solid and tubular ones.
While I have not built your exact part, I have faced this problem numbers of times to date.  Even though I too have an engineering degree, I still could not convince the "BIG" Engineer that I knew what I was talking about until I could actually show them.  Being a fabricator/welder I understand that metals shrink, stretch and do all sorts of exasperating things when heat is applied.  Those schooled only with books have a difficult time with this concept especially today because AutoCAD does not have an icon for weld shrinkage on their drawing interface.  Hope you  have some fun with this one!!
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 01-10-2007 07:02
Sir,

absolutely wonderful advice for convincing the faithless ones!

Undoubted you're having great personal experience...

Regards
Stephan
Parent - By yorkiepap (***) Date 01-10-2007 19:30
Hey XPERTFAB,
Good to see others who know that books are wonderful providing information and educational tools, but the true reality comes from we who make it work tangibly by applying the thought into the dimensionally correct item. You brought back memories of an engineer I worked under once who said certain welding applications we were doing could not be done in a multiple brazing operation. Not only did I prove him wrong, I designed, fabricated and implemented 5 additional operations that were multiple braze. At first, he thought he was God's gift to the engineering arena and his word was the ultimate conclusion. Needless to say, he did admit some humbleness after being shown what true determination can result in. Made my day.....   I do believe that engineers are taught that their word is unchallengeable.....Denny
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 01-12-2007 13:26 Edited 01-12-2007 13:29
Expertfab
It was actually said that the engineer wouldnt listen to any information that I got from a bunch of welders: Thanks for posting because I was able to say that there were engineers on the site as well.  If you have a hard time convincing these engineers with a degree, imagine me, a 140# chick with no degree, trying to tell them that they didnt account for something that they should have.  Really appreciate the help.  I will try to do the experiment at a later date, right now we are up against a deadline and he'll just have to take my word for it.

Rebekah
Parent - By Bob Garner (***) Date 01-12-2007 22:10
ps:  I'm a structural engineer and I lurk around this site to pick up a lot of practical information about welding.  I've specified a fair amount of structural aluminum fabrications (6061 T-6, mostly).  The fabrications, though, were relatively small and thermal shrinkage was never a problem.  Although I've been doin' this for 36 years - guess who just learned somethin' he didn't know before (he says with much embarassment).

Weld On!

Bob Garner
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Aluminum Shrinkage... (locked)

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