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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / REAL ID ACT
- - By weldment (*) Date 01-11-2007 04:13
Hey,
     What do you think about the real i.d. act that President Bush is wanting to put into action?  This is an 82 Billion dollar Military spending bill.  This is supposed to cut down on any would be terrorists to be able to move about freely in our country.  This will be an i.d. card to replace our drivers license and can be scanned electronically.  We will all have to have one in order to work anywhere in the U.S.  This is supposed to cut down on alot or all of the illegal aliens working here in the good ol USA too.  We will have to have one to open bank accounts,etc.  Anyway just wondered what ya'll though about all of this stuff?
WELDMENT
Parent - - By RANDER (***) Date 01-11-2007 16:23
Another problem for the good people.  The bad guys will always do what they want, falsify docs, etc..  I can get ID and socials for a few bucks in LA. (CA), Just had someone use my credit card in Delaware. (I live in California). Theyll get around it because it probably wont be enforced just like employers hiring illegals, banks catering to illegals.  Noone seems to need ID anymore except me when I want a beer.  The law abiding citizens will just have one more card to carry and one more number to remember. 
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 01-11-2007 16:39
Sorry to say, I agree whole heartedly.  As the spouse of a legal immigrant, we have followed each and every step required by law.  When traveling in and out of the country my wife routinely gets pulled over and questioned by immigrations officials (she has a green card currently) when going through the US Citizen and Green card holders line. This is very disheartening, while we watch visitors going through the visitors line with "seemingly" very little problems...
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-13-2007 02:27
Jon,

My spouse is filipina, and gets treated like an illegal. We've went through all the legal channels, she has a green card the whole spiel. Yet she's treated like a pariah coming in and out of the country all the while illegal immigrant are being given everything but the farm (in one particular case the farm included). It often seems as if she would have been treated better if we'd done it illegally.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 01-11-2007 16:45
Dude,
That bill was passed overwhelmingly by congress in mid 2005;  you are a bit behind the times.

Here is some data
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act_of_2005
Parent - By RANDER (***) Date 01-11-2007 16:54
WOW looks like its working
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 01-11-2007 16:57
Thanks for the update Lawrence.  I think the question, and the controversy is as stated in your link:

"There is disagreement about whether the Real ID Act institutes a "national identification card" system. The new law only sets forth national standards, but leaves the issuance of cards and the maintenance of databases in state hands; therefore, it is not a true "national ID" system, and may even forestall the arrival of national ID."

Who knows where all of this will end?  I know national security and TSA keep changing their minds on what they want/need... the poor people manning immigration points (Canada & Mexico) probably don't even know as our experience there has been inconsistent to say the least... last time we crossed back into the USA immigrations through my wife's green card back saying it didn't mean sh*t, what he needed was a drivers license because that showed she lives here.... (she had her drivers license even before we began the legal immigration actions)...  drivers licenses DEFINATELY do not show legal status in the USA and are probably among the easiest of documents to forge.

Just thoughts from one who has been intimately involved in immigration practices for the past 5 years...
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 01-11-2007 23:27
I guess if we want to live free in this country we have to build a fortress ,(Ruby Ridge), and fortify the sh** out of it, then fight to the death protecting it? When I retire, I'm buying 2 float planes and building a fortress in the middle of Alaska. Hopefully Uncle Sam wont be watching when I do my yard chores in the buff!

Dang it, I forgot about the mosquitos, guess the buff thing is out of the question. . . .well, I'll have my bird finger hanging out, that's a promise!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-11-2007 23:27 Edited 01-11-2007 23:40
Just to add to the sad reality of these days...

When two border patrol agents get prosecuted and convicted for defending our borders from drug smuggling scum that end up being offered immunity from prosecutionin an agreement with the Justice department???

The DA which handled the case gives this individual that allegedly was terrorized by these two border patrol agents that were just trying to do their job - immunity of all things in order to testify against these two hero's who did nothing more than try to stop an illegal alien from attempting to smuggle drugs into our country!!!

When this type of so-called justice stops, only then can we as a nation expect to hope that things might just get on the right track as far as really addressing this issue!!!

Then there is that underaddressed question as to where did all those (scarcastic) 8.8 BILLION US dollars end up disappearing to anyway??? I'm talking about that "Black Hole" named Iraq!!!                               To this day - NO ONE HAS A CLUE AS TO WHERE IT WENT!!!
Talk about POOF!!! Houdini would've been impressed!!!

I better stop now because I'n just getting warmed up and I sense that I'm just going to end up getting even madder than I already am!!! Please Support our Troops!!! It's not their fault that the mess called Iraq is still a mess - it's the friggin greedy politicians & the other poor excuses for human beings -fault - PERIOD!!! End of Rant!!! We have the technology and the means... all we're missing is the courage to implement the necessary changes to do what is needed!!!

Respectfully,

SSBN727
Run Silent - except when the manure is starting to rise too high...  Run Deep - especially when the dung is rising too fast above one's head!!!
Parent - - By RANDER (***) Date 01-12-2007 03:05
Yeah I was going to bring up the agents but I felt I was getting TOO political and deleted my post.  That is a very sad and scary issue indeed.
Agents Ramos and Campeon in case anyones interested - http://poe.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=55101
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 01-12-2007 08:36
Hi guys,
As a Welding Forum I probably shouldn't post these questions but I will try and sneak them in. Both subjects have mystified me (and a lot of my friends) for a while and I would love to have some feedback from the "average joe" in the USA.
1 - When the Serbs were committing genocide and killing thousands in the former Yugoslavia the UN sent in peacekeepers. These peacekeepers had to stand by powerless and watch as a whole city was wiped out. No sign of the US.
Similar scenario in Iraq (including the false claims that Sadaam was responsible for 9/11 and that he had WMD's) and the US is straight into action.
Sceptics (myself included) would find it strange that Yugoslavia had no oil while Iraq is one of the biggest oil producers in the world.

2 - New Zealand banned nuclear powered or armed vessels from visiting their ports due to the US's refusal to confirm or deny the presence of nuclear arms/reactors.
The supposed foe at that time was Russia and they would have known exactly what capabilities the vessels of the American fleet had. We were supposedly the friend and yet we were not considered trustworthy enough to be told yes or no as to whether the vessels were nuclear armed or powered.
New Zealand suffered a lot of hardship in a variety of areas due to their stance.
New Zealanders have fought alongside Americans in WW2, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan and Iraq.We have supplied soldiers to support the USA in conflicts that have been a long way from our home and have in no way involved us.I think we deserved to be treated a bit better than we were.

I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone, just thought it was a perfect opportunity to get some feedback on a couple of subjects that still concern myself and a lot of other people in the Southern Hemisphere,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 01-12-2007 12:39
You probably already know my stance Shane, but sadly, many American's today have never ventured from our own borders.  I happened to be in Sydney when the first bombs were falling in Iraq.  Even though Australia has been our partner in Iraq I can tell you there were HUGE protests against American's that day. 

The folks I was with told me to just keep my mouth shut or pretend I was from Canada if I was forced to speak.  Upon leaving Australia for New Zealand, the airport customs and immigrations folks obviously became aware of my citizenship and verbally abused me... I kept my mouth shut.  Did/do I agree with the US involvement in Iraq?  Absolutely not.  Did it make any difference while I was out of country?  No, I was judged the same as any flag waving supporter of the war...

My point?  Whether we, as Americans agree with the actions taken by our government or not, the rest of the world judges us (individually) based on the actions of our government.

Like I said, I fully support the war on terror and most definately support our troops but feel MY government has gone very badly astray....
Parent - By RANDER (***) Date 01-12-2007 14:34
Shane,
I would agree with Jon that your average Joe american doesnt look too far past their own borders.  Most probably dont participate in our government and when its time to vote, commercials will most likely dictate how people vote on the issues. District lines are drawn in such a way as to keep incumbents in office as long as possible. (Of course blind party faith plays a role also).  I think most people are too busy working and taking care of family to be really involved in the political process.  After a 12 hr. shift and 4-5 hrs. on the road the last thing I want to do is look through my voter guide and try to interpret a bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo.

We place a certain amount of power with our elected officials (Elected sometimes means lesser of two evils) and they do the job.  We the people dont always agree with them. 
Change is in the wind but will it just be more hot air?
Sorry I dont have any real answer to your questions
Rob
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-13-2007 02:19
Shane,

I don't know if I qualify as the "average joe". Anyone in the states who has traveled extensively (which covers most NDT/QA/QC types) is not the average joe.
The average person in the states may take a couple of weeks here and there to visit the tourist routes in other countries, but those tourist routes are nothing
but the locals adjustment to market. These tourist have pre-conceptualized images, and expectations built from those images as to what they will find. The locals
after the tourist dollar play up to this. For instance, Ensanada, Mexico. When you drive into the town a sign tells you your entering a tourist zone. The cruise ships
and many cali folks out for a weekend drive to town, get drunk, buy a goofy sombrero run around the tourist area acting a fool wearing the same,
then get back on the ship or go home,and reminisce about their time going native in Mexico. Many in the states look at illegal hispanic immigrants as if they are all Mexicans with a not much altered image.
Is this Mexico? Not hardly. Are all Hispanic illegal immigrants Mexican, again, Not hardly.
I have many for instances to draw on, but I think you have the idea.
In short, looking for an "average joe" in this forum is not likely to be fruitful. People in this business are typically well traveled, have seen and done things the "average joe"
doesn't even know exist or really even cares about.

As for the Serbs, I agree, but they were not the only case. There have been many such cases throughout recent history (100 years) In my eyes, that should have been stopped and it was unconscionable to turn a blind eye to that case and many others that don't make the news.

As for Sadaam, lets not forget he not only had, but used WMD's in the form of gas attacks against the Kurds. My only problem is in the timing and the politics involved. The weapons inspectors could not report on their findings in Turkey because it would embarass a political ally. It wouldn't be the first time a given nation has played shell games with items they shouldn't have. N. Korea for instance, no one paid attention until they actually detonated a nuke.
As for being sceptics, I have no doubt the oil is the only real reason for the war. However; that does not detract from the valid reasons for the same.
Sadely, world security and stability depends on the stable flow of oil. Anything that threatens that is headed for war sooner or later.

As far as your point 2, I did not know the things you've stated, but I will educated myself on them now. If you have a source of info please feel free to post it.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 01-13-2007 07:42
CWI555; I think the question is by what right does a free country invade and overthrow another nation? 

The excuse was weapons of mass destruction, the rest of the world objected to our invasion.  Few saw any direct threat from the madman.  Okay, history aside, now the tyrant is dead and no weapons have been found. 

Why are we still there?  We have to set right the country we placed in turmoil?  Sadly, us trying to force feed democracy on an unwilling nation smacks sourly as reflective of our own fear of the expansion of communism... in my humble opinion, we have no right to dictate the form of government to another country, nor do / did we have any right to invade and overthrow the Iraqi government. 

Saddam was a horrible person and he proved his ability with the invasion of Kuwait but it seems our target was Osama bin laden and the Al Qaida...what happened there?  Timing, as you mention was bad, Osama and his cronnies seemed to be holed up in Afghanistan and our inability to "smoke him out" seemed too coincidental with the timing of our invasion of Iraq.  A diversion tactic to throw off the American public from incompetent intelligence, who really knows? 

Sadly, many Americans are coming to realize the issue seemed to one more of vendetta for not finishing the job during the first gulf war.  George senior was no fool, he knew damned well what that would mean... it just seems junior couldn't focus his energies to keep track of the REAL target.  Maybe I've got my head up my a$$ but that's my perception and the American public seems to be coming around to the same conclusion.  At the onset, many feared another Viet Nam and it sure seems thats where we are.  You can't win a war being fearful of completely devastating a country, without regard to it's civilians, and that has been our downfall in each war since WWII.

The image and safety of American's has been badly damaged by our foolhardy invasion and worse, our failure to withdraw.  I do support the continued war on terror but get the damned thing back on track...

Finally, okay, we completely destoyed the country of Iraq, Ooopsies, so sorry... it was a declared war.  Let's quit throwing our tax dollars at rebuilding another country while so many parts of our own infrastructure are failing.

Every great country in history has failed due to over extending it's reaches.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-13-2007 08:07
you raise some valid points jon. However on the lack of threat, we'll have to agree to disagree.
The rest of it I'll agree with.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 01-12-2007 08:02 Edited 01-12-2007 08:12
SSBN727, for once, I feel you and I are on exactly the same page. 

I fully support the war on terrorism and most definately support our troops, but feel the war on terror has gotten very badly off track and as a result Americans are suffering more than we should in lost freedoms and a government spinning out of control.  These are personal opinions and I don't expect others to share them, nor do I feel the need to defend my opinion.  Do I feel safer than the day after 9-11?  Absolutely not, just the opposite.  Sorry for the rant!

The legal system HAS long been turned upside down in our country and those who still maintain we still have the world's best systems of politics, legality and health care has obviously not been outside of our borders or had only limited exposure to third world countires...
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 01-12-2007 15:32
what do you expect from a president that has the lowest IQ on record (92), very easy to control
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 01-12-2007 22:00
Let's all agree. Our founding fathers are not in control anymore. If they were we would all be involved in a civil war, not on our turf but still. . . . we would ALL be fighting. I guarantee that if the Coors brewery had been a target instead of the trade center, every Tom Dick and Harry would want a piece of the action. It's sad to see how many American people are so damn apathetic to this situation, when it could mean a world war. The only comfort I have is that I could protect my family in the worst scenario possible, or die trying.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-12-2007 23:26
Hi Jon!
I would like you to know that there are more things that we agree with than I usually care to admit or share with you... That's not to say that I always agree with you or anyone else for that matter all of the time and that's why we are who we are!!!

Anywho, I do appreciate the compliment Jon and I would like to reciprocate the same towards you!!! I also agree with your following statement, the opinions from Shane, Rander & Sourdough... Let us Pray!!!

I believe that it would be a good thing but then again this is strictly only my opinion, to have a sort of "Off Topic" section in this forum so that we could all talk about other topics that are not always directly related to welding & fabrication exclusively and maybe on a trial basis with some tight controls on content with regards to profanity, illicit sexual content, or abusive posts. We could still vent - only in a civilized manner!

What do you think Christine - the rest of my fellow participants???

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent...  Run Deep!!!
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 01-12-2007 23:52
I agree. I think the regulars here will regulate the idiots. What do you feel?
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 01-13-2007 01:00
I LOVE it!!!  We'll make sure Ross and Christine consider it first thing next week!
Parent - By Cgregory (**) Date 01-15-2007 14:06
Excellent idea!  Go take a look under the "General Forums" section.

-- Christine
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-13-2007 01:36
ssbn727,

Playing armchair quarterback never works. If you want your football team to win, do you let the fans in the stands make the calls, or do you rely on professional coaches, trained and experienced to make the calls?
Iraq is a mess because the politicians are trying to run it. If you want to unF### Iraq, let the military commanders/professionals make the calls.

8.8 billion missing .. There is no such thing as a 400 dollar inertial impact delivery device (hammer). This is one area that I support oversight into the military. 8.8 billion is chicken feed compared to money waisted by the military in the past. I understand security concerns, and the need for secrecy, but regardless there needs to be oversight.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-13-2007 09:17 Edited 01-13-2007 09:31
Hi CWI555!

I hate to break the news to you but, the armchair quarterbacks turned out to be RIGHT ON in their play calling this time at least!!!

What did the commanders/professionals end up achieving in making echoes of the president's or was it the Vice President's calls??? They towed the party line by agreeing with the president that there was no need to change tactics, no need to follow the Powell Doctrine even though he was duped by the CIA, which worked pretty darn good in the first Gulf war... should I continue???

Where did anybody in the administration ever get the obtuse notion that the our nation's armed forces are trained & prepared in nation building??? Vietnam???

No! your right, we should let the commanders/professionals that totally forgot about the lessons learned from Vietnam - continue to make things better for all of those brave men and women that are coming back to this country totally disfigured, and in numbers that are unprecedented in our history with the exception of WWI&WWII & our own brief civil war... Not to mention the more than three thousand that have made the ultimate sacrifice!!! We'll just sit back and continue to watch as they practice being yes men to the president all over again... I'll give them credit - when they get their lines straight they start sounding like a never -ending echo!!!

Now as far as the 8.8 Billion is concerned, the only "inertial impact delivery devices" that were bought with that money if you want to call them that, ended up being used against our own troops -remember Chawlabi or whatever his name was??? he's wanted in Jordan, our own armed forces for a time and ends up becoming the "main gazain" of Iraq's Oil Industry!!! That money disappeared according to the GAO or was it the OMB??? However, we seem to have pretty good idea nowadays where it ended up... Blinders are just that folks... It's time to wake up and smell the Coffee because we're about to get 'bamboozled" once again and the next target is Iran!!!

I agree with you as far as oversight is concerned but, that word is profanity to the party that was in power when we started this misadventure!!!

Honestly though, They - meaning Iran, do deserve a "blunt probing of their privates" (I apologize in advance to the people of Iran and some of the more sensitive folks in this forum - I meant the current Iranian government!) in order to show them not to underestimate us but, not in the way the President is setting it up because for one thing, we simply do'nt have enough troops ready for that scenario... The way our present military is set up, we're already stetched out too thin!!!

However we could try out some of the latest weapons systems that the Navy and the Air Force have been perfecting in order to let them know that it's in their best interest to back off in Iraq!
Whoops!!! did I let the cat out of the bag??? Loose lips sink ships yet I doubt that will happen!!!

I wonder how 8.8 billion dollars worth of chicken feed looks like???
On a final note, I would like to take this time to re-introduce to the folks here in the forum the news about the recent newly discovered element appropriately named "Administratium"...

Subject: Administratium

A Major research institution has recently announced the discovery of the heaviest element known to science!!! This new element has been tentatively named: "ADMINISTRATIUM"

Administratium has 1 neutron, 12 assistant neutrons, 75 deputy neutrons, and 111 assistant deputy neutrons... Giving it an atomic mass of 199!!! These 199 particles are held together by a force called: MORONS!!! These are surrounded by vast quantities of Lepton-like particles called PEONS!!!

Since Administratium has no electrons, it is inert... However, it can be detected as it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact!!! A minute amount of Administratium causes one reaction to take over 4 days to complete when it would normally take less than one second!!!

Administratium has a normal half-life of 3 years... It does'nt decay but instead, undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the Assistant neutrons, deputy neutrons, and assistant deputy neutrons exchange places... In fact, Administratium's mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganization causes some of the moron forces to become neutrons - forming Isodopes!!!

This characteristic of Moron-Promotion leads some scientists to speculate that Administratium is formed whenever Morons reach a certain Quantity in concentration!!!
This Hypothetical quantity is referred to as: "CRITICAL MOREASSES"!!!
YOU WILL KNOW IT WHEN YOU SEE IT!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent...  Run Deep!!!
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 01-14-2007 09:53
Loved it.
Bill
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-14-2007 20:58 Edited 01-14-2007 21:59
ssbn,

No our armed forces are not trained in nation building. That again is politicians at work.
As for arm chair quaterbacks, at the onset they were wrong, however; that all changed with severe mismanagement again directly related to the politicians.
Military types don't have the ability to defy orders without ending up in chains, it's not about forgetting the lessons of Vietnam.
Lets get some numbers right. your quote "in numbers that are unprecedented in our history with the exception of WWI&WWII"

WWII deaths (US only)
446,000 deaths
689,000 wounded
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Notes

Korea Deaths;
33,686 dead (combat deaths, not falling of a building or a car wreck)
wounded 103,000
39,000 Severely disabled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

Vietnam:
Deaths
Hostile deaths: 47,359 (a little better than 10,000 dead from non battle/hostile deaths).
Severely disabled: 75,000, 23,214 were classified 100% disabled. 5,283 lost
limbs, 1,081 sustained multiple amputations. Amputation or crippling wounds to the lower extremities were 300% higher than in WWII and 70% higher than in Korea. Multiple amputations occurred at the rate of 18.4% compared to 5.7% in WWII.
http://www.mrfa.org/vnstats.htm

At let us not forget the MIA's.

I don't know where you got your information from, but it is in serious error.
There is not comparison of Iraq to Vietnam or Korea much less WWII or WWI.

There are some lessons that have been forgotten about Vietnam, one of which is forgetting the sacrifice those men and women made. Right war, wrong war, doesn't make any difference to the dead. You speak of brave men and women coming back totally disfigured, in numbers unprecedented, that sir could not be further from the truth.
No death or wound of any nature should ever be belittled in any fashion, much less compared to each other in such a fashion as to imply a mitigation of their individual sacrifice.

"that word is profanity to the party that was in power when we started this misadventure!!!"

Misadventure? Yes, it was a poorly executed plan if there was a plan, but calling 3000 deaths a misadventure is just plan wrong, much less the wounded.

These men and women don't ask to go there, they are told to go there. Being a yes man to the president? getting in line and sounding like a never ending echo?
I suppose in your time (assuming your ssbn tag implies you were a squid) you told your CO to take a hike without a courts martial? I kind of doubt it.
Good bad or indifferent if theres any blame to be put off on anyone it's the Commander and Chief. Not the individual servicemen and women from private/seaman/airman to their officers corps.

I don't really care wheither its democratic or republican, in my eyes they are both equally worthless, and both equally wrong. To say they were "duped" or mislead into voting for the war in the beginning? democrat or republican either one that makes that statement should not be in elected office if they are sheep to be lead about by the nose only voting for something national polls show as popular. Blaming someone else for not researching a matter for yourself just doesn't wash. If you drive someone to a gas station who has not told you they intend to rob it and they rob it, your still going to jail. Where is that for politicians?

Neither party likes oversite. They kick and scream about the other party and how corrupt they are, but at the end of the day, they are both the same.

While I am at it, try checking these facts; what happens to the world economy and ours when N. Korea lobes a nuke into South Korea or Japan? It's over, thats what.
Screw Iran, they are not the threat they are being played out to be. If at any time they begin to be that threat, you can bank on Isreal taking care of it.
We would be better focused on N. Korea.

Heres some number to put things into perspective:
Source http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/   Bureau of Justice Statistics

575 police officers killed in the line of duty 1996 to 2005 nationwide

2005 more than 500 murders in new york city alone, which is down from a record 2,245 in 1990
2005 Houston more than 325 murders
2005 Chicago more than 450 murders
2005 Los Angeles more than 400 murders
2005 Detroit more than 300 murders

Something to think about.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-15-2007 06:53 Edited 01-15-2007 08:54
So what's your point CWI555???

I do'nt believe you really read my last post... In fact you probably only read what you did'nt agree with and dislike and immediately started assuming!!! Well, when you start assuming, you make an a*s out of yourself and ming but, not me!!! Sounds like selective reading to me!!!

I'll admit that my statements regarding the disfigured soldiers & marines (btw, calling someone or some group of individuals disfigured if in fact they are - is not an insult, and I should know because I am one!!!) were not totally accurate and I apologize for that but, I will say this... The amount of wounded personnel that are coming back from Iraq being wounded from mines & IED's is not something to be dismissed as something common nor can one compare the figures in casualties without the differences in battlefield medical technology & the evolutionary changes in body armor and that the wounded as a result of IED's happens consistently in every war that we've been in!!!

I believe in the War on Terror, and that CWI55  - you better not question because then you're questioning my own personal experiences with it... I lost four lifelong friends (Two Police, Two Firefighters) that I grew up with in New York City when the World Trade Center's Twin Towers collapsed as a result of being collided by two different hijacked commercial airliners. I personally worked on a few of adjacent buildings like the World Financial Center, and worked in both the north & south towers installing some structural reinforcements on different floors in order to enable the floor sections to support the weight of huge mainframe computers.

I also helped out in repairing the basement structures underneath the towers from the first attack back in 1993!!! I went to alot of funerals and memorials since September 11th, 2001 so, please do'nt question what I've experienced in the War on Terror!!!

Iraq DID NOT ATTACK US!!! AL QUEDA DID!!! Where were they operating out of??? Afganistan!!! Case Closed!!!

CWI555! You can say what you want, express your own opinions and I'll respect them but, please refrain from attacking my integrity or question whether or not I understand the big picture because, I do!!!

1.) I did'nt call "3000 deaths a misadventure", and you ought to be ashamed of yourself in saying that!!!

2.) You do'nt know what I did in the service so again, please stop making an a*s out of yourself!!!
I'm both a "squid" and a "Yardbird" and very PROUD OF IT!!! That one you got right!!!
Your last statement afterwards... What in the heck does that have to do with the price of tea in China??? 
I believe that CWI555 is attempting to read my mind??? A TRUE LESSON IN FUTILITY!!! ROTFLOL!!!

3.) There you go again!!! I do squarely put the blame ONLY on the Commander in Chief but, I also blame some of his subordinates for going along with his ignorance!!! Btw, there were quite a few of his subordinate commanders that spoke out against his policies and they were ostricized or outright defamed  of their character - career wise!!! I NEVER PUT THE BLAME ON THE TROOPS - PERIOD!!!

At this point, I believe that a suggestion is in order... Go get your eyesight checked because, you've proven  to me and others time and again that you're not reading my post correctly or your interpretations of my comments are way, and I mean way off the mark!!!

You can say what you want about politicians, and I'll respect your opinion... It does'nt mean that I'll agree with it but at least, I'll respect it which is more than I can say about your reactions towards my own and that's just plain sad!!! I know one thing for sure that I've been doing since I became old enough to do so...
I vote every year, and sometimes more than once!!!

Still! No use crying over spilled milk because, you ca'nt change my opinions and I will not even attempt to change yours... No! The only thing I'll continue to do is to catch any misinterpretations that you may have regarding my comments, and promptly point them out to you in the hopes of you better understanding as to what I was really trying to say - CAPISH??? Numbers are not that important when it comes to debating which war was worse than the other because ultimately - WAR SUCKS - PERIOD!!!

CWI555, PLEASE Do'nt PATRONZE ME!!!

SSBN727
Run Silent unless someone has self inflicted "foot in mouth disease"...  Run Deep as one has to!!!

Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-16-2007 03:29 Edited 01-16-2007 03:35
I'll predicate this response with You have again mis read my statements. So I'll ask you as you've ask me not to selectively read.

1.) I did'nt call "3000 deaths a misadventure", and you ought to be ashamed of yourself in saying that!!!
I never said that, please read the text in full in context with your statement.

As for loses, There are many with loses, myself included. I don't recall questioning your personnel experience either.

Al Queda was financially supported by Iraq, and yes they were operating out of Afganistan.
I'll ask you a question; If any given country buys a bomb for any given terrorist group, that then uses that bomb against the U.S.
should they be without fault or should they be bombed in turn? Your opinion on that?

My comment in regards to "squid" was meant that it shows you to have military experience, which means you would know the they
dont have a choice as to what orders they follow.

A direct quote from you sir:
"What did the commanders/professionals end up achieving in making echoes of the president's or was it the Vice President's calls??? They towed the party line by agreeing with the president that there was no need to change tactics, no need to follow the Powell Doctrine even though he was duped by the CIA, which worked pretty darn good in the first Gulf war... should I continue???
Maybe I missed something here, but I read commanders in that statement. If that was not your intent I apologize.

On this we agree, war does suck.

I am sorry you can't see the nature of your original response that started all this. To me I was the one being patronized.
Best thing to do at this point is let it die. Say what you will, this will be my last on this matter.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 01-16-2007 05:24
Them service men can get intense....
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-16-2007 18:25 Edited 01-16-2007 18:32
Hi CWI555!

1.) On 1-14-07 16:58, edited on 17:59 is where you commented: quote "but calling 3000 deaths a misadventure is just plan (your spelling - not mine) wrong, much less the wounded." I ask you CWI555, where in any of my posts did I say those words verbatim?

2.) "Al Queda was financially supported by Iraq." If you have proof of that , please let the media and everyone else including myself that seems to think that there was no financial connection between Al Queda & Iraq prior to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003... Heck, I'll even change my opinion if the proof is indisputable!!! There was a substantial amount of financial support discovered coming from another middle eastern nation that has been our ally for quite some time, and that has'nt been followed up enough in the news lately frankly because, of the embarrasment that it has caused to everyone directly or indirectly involved.

To answer your question regarding the buying of bombs... My answer is simple, If this were the case then why have'nt we bombed Iran or Saudi Arabia yet??? There is definitely more proof existing of those two countries giving either indirect financial support to Al Queda or being directly responsible for supplying the insurgents in Iraq with IED's.

3.) Your comment about calling me a "squid" did not insult me in fact, I'm rather proud of that!!! It was what you said afterwards that questioned my integrity because, it's like me questioning you in the same way which btw, is patronizing!!!

I'm glad the we both agree that War does SUCK!!!

It looks like we both agree that we disagree with each other...
I agree with you that this matter of disagreement with us will not end so I agree with you to let it die in the interest of not letting it manifest into a mess which unfortunately I'm afraid, has already become the case here.

CWI555, I did not mean to insult you or any of our folks that served or continue to serve for the greatest country in the history of this planet!!! All I meant to do was to express my own opinion and the last time I checked, we're still allowed to do so in this great nation we call The United States of America!!! I believe that you misunderstood the intent of my previous posts and, I apologize if I personally hurt your feelings because, that was not my intent.

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent...  Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 01-15-2007 08:34
It's widely held that the increase in percentage of those surviving serious wounds is a result of better care, not any particular difference in war itself.  Beginning in Korea (those MASH helicopters with the baskets on the side) and quite will implemented in Vietnam and later wounded are transported to hospital faster than you will be if you have an auto wreck.  Those who would have just bled out in WWII and before now arrive at hospital alive, and recieve much better treatment, once there, than would have been available in prior times.  We are moving casualties out of the dead column into the wounded column but that means that much more seriously wounded people are surviving.

Body armor also tends to move statistics from dead to wounded.

Without trying to assess the good sense of those who sent them there, I surely support those who are there and wish them all God speed and safe home.

Bill
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-15-2007 08:40
My sentiments exactly Bill!!!
Thanks for putting things in their proper perspective!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent...  Run Deep!!!
Parent - By makeithot (***) Date 01-20-2007 02:14
That's outstanding, never heard politics sumed up so accurately.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 01-29-2007 23:25
I gots a dumb question, as long as we're having an incendiary thread here.

What exactly does "support our troops" mean?  Seriously.  What does it mean to support the troops?  We're not in a Viet Nam-like situation where returning troops are spit on, so it's not a case of "don't abuse them".

It seems to mean "support the war", but for those of us who feel that the decision to go to war with Iraq showed huge disregard for the lives of our troops, that ain't it.  So what does it mean?  Everyone has those big yellow magnets on the back of their car, but why?  I'm tempted to go to supportourribbons.com and buy the really big one that says "I support more troops than you do".

My little brother is in the army.  He went to Afghanistan and back.  I was okay with him going to Afghanistan.  Worried, but thought that it was a good cause.  He's in Iraq now.  And if anything happens to him, his blood will be more on the hands of OUR government who made the stupid decision to get involved in that particular war (and get our people killed, get half the world to hate us and make all of us bigger targets than we ever were before, and blow our military wad so now Iran and N. Korea just laugh at us) than on the hands of whoever directly harms him.

And he doesn't understand the whole "support the troops" schtick either.

So what's it mean?

Hg
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 01-30-2007 00:29 Edited 01-30-2007 00:33
Hello HgTX, your post here made me sit down and think for a moment or two about what you were asking. Politics aside, when I looked at the question, this is what I came up with, I have seen many articles discussing a myriad of different topics relative to the war or our involvement. Many of these articles discussed different topics or problems being encountered by our troops. An example: body armor, in one instance I had read and also heard firsthand from returning troops that the body armor that had been issued to them and was supposed to then be given to the troops that were replacing them had been sold(on the black market, lost, or otherwise) and thus not forwarded to their replacements. Obviously this meant that they didn't get body armor immediately, some private individuals had gotten wind of this and had set up necessary channels to privately provide this armor for many individuals, to me this would be an example of "support our troops". Another instance was the example of "silly string", some of the demolition folks had discovered that by using silly string they were able to detect many of the trip wires that were being set in buildings and other places. As I understand it, a group of private individuals got together and put a great effort into purchasing and shipping these items over so that the troops would have a supply of this to work with. There have been a number of private individuals who have gotten together and made efforts to see that troops have had socks, underwear, and other personal items that aren't so readily available through the military channels. These are examples to me of "support our troops". I do not know for certain as to how the monies that are being generated from the sale of the various yellow ribbons are being used for the support of our troops, I hope that they are going to purposes such as those which I first described.
     We obviously can't just load everybody up and vacate this theater of operation, as we have made the commitment to be there. While we are committed to being there, I hope individuals continue to help out where they can in the various ways which aren't covered by our government. This is just my take. Regards, aevald
Parent - By makeithot (***) Date 01-13-2007 02:08
Wow!!! 82billion not to be sinical , but freedom is sure starting to get expensive. Maybe it's bad management, But you can't expect to much from a C- student.  Ohwell better luck on the next vote.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-13-2007 08:05
The problem with the program is it will only work on law abiding citizens. Does requiring I.D. actually stop a teenager from getting beer? Or a nut from getting a gun? It only stops those who would adhere to the law. A criminal by definition is someone who breaks the laws of the land. They wouldn't be a criminal otherwise.
It kills me when I see laws like this, They only create more crime. People who are of a mind to break the law are not going to care about an I.D. It sure isn't going to stop illegals either.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 01-13-2007 09:29
The way things are headed, we might as well offer these countries statehood!!!
What an epiphany!!!

Respectfully,
SSBN727
Run Silent except for this thread...  Run Deep!!!
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 01-13-2007 10:43
Guys,
Thank you all for your responses, they have been very informative.
I am deeply concerned (as everyone is) with the waste of young American lives in Iraq. And that is all it is, a complete waste of lives.
As soon as the invasion started everyone in my part of the world went "Oh Sh.t, heres another Vietnam".Invade a country to liberate a people who do not even want you to be there.(And there were a lot of Australians and New Zealanders - ANZACS - who died following the US into battle.)
The pretence that this was to fight a war against terror is an absolute joke.Al Q....( don't know how to spell it and don't really care) They are just an organisation that is like the mythical hydra, cut off one head and another one pops straight up. The press crows that a missile strike has just killed an Al Q..... leader and next thing another one has popped up to fill his place.The hatred by Muslims (I probably should say islamics) of the USA is much more pronounced now than it was before the Iraqi invasion so what has been achieved. Nothing.In fact the US is even more of a target now.
I have no idea of how to solve the conflict but it doesn't take a genius to realise that force (throw another 21,500 troops at it) will not win this arguement.
It's a scary future we leave to our children no matter what the outcome in Iraq,
Best regards,
Shane
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 01-13-2007 17:56
Will Darn, I think I have the solution to it all. What we need is a bunch of hard headed welders running things; it couldn't get any more messed up (no pun intended).

As the technology and the WWW grow it will be come increasing harder for World leaders and Politicians to run amuck. Maybe someday we will get it right but as the number of concerns increases so goes odds against it.

I as a citizen of the US (born & raised) sometime hang my head when I see and hear some of the things we have done as a nation. But sometimes we do not have all (or the same) information that went in to making some decisions and leaves us prey to a media that is not always evenhanded.

Hail to the WWW.
Parent - By RANDER (***) Date 01-15-2007 05:00
Shane,
Just Bullshi*ing  here, I think a seperate forum for off topics is great.  Australia apparently is just as much a target of the EXTREMISTS as the USA is.  These guys whether they be 1 or 1,000,000 strong have a goal and that is the destruction of the western civilization.  They're fighting a thousands year old war that we are just now beginning to comprehend.            I agree that I dont have the answers and all of us here are just armchair quarterbacks.  We couldve just sat there and did nothing but they would have still hit us like they have been doing for decades.  Its only "9-11" that brought this to the average guys eye.  Kill or be killed I think applies in this situation.  This war has been going on for longer than we all think and will go on longer still. 

Anyways while im having a beer on a great winter night Ill have a drink for all the boys (And ladies) on the site and wish you all well and happiness. 

Rob
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 01-14-2007 22:48
Know what I did in my early twenties to stay out of trouble? I QUIT BREAKING THE LAW.

Believe it or not, it worked!
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 01-16-2007 19:13
i place the blame squarely on al gore's head, for creating the internet. now everyone has access to almost all the information you could want (kidding kinda). a couple of generations ago there wasn't a lot of info on things like "politically correct", or "war crimes". the coalition of nations to pursue war criminals was not there. this is a relatively new formation. also, prisoner had no rights. if it saved your people, you did what it took to get info from them. can, in a couple of generation, you change man's nature? what worked for 10,000 years is now uncivilized, why, because we became enlightened over night?
i'd better stop or this will be longer than stephans posts ( no offence-good info in them)
my unique opinion
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