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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Weld Cracking issuse???
- - By Harvard (*) Date 01-22-2007 01:40
Hello, I feel really really dumb asking this but hey, I am only 22 and kinda new to the trade. I work with heavy equipment all day, and that is where the majority of my experience is. But, we do have one hoe at work a Caterpillar 345. And, the boom keeps cracking in the same place, no matter who welds it. And, when I cut it out, it always cuts out clean no slag no porisoty and its tied in. I cant figure out for the life of me whats going on. I finally fish plated it on Sat. but I dont know if thats the right thing to do. Please excuse my ingorance and lack of experience. But, I have to figure all this out as I go, the guy at work who used to weld, he wont show no one nothing, but will stab you in the back if you do something wrong. Anyway, we weld with hobart E7018. And, I just scarf out the crack with my torch and grind it clean then weld it. Should I also drill a hole in the ends? Oh and this is hardend still I think they are calling it T1. Not to sure, please help me if you can.
Thanks,
Chris
P.S. I forgot to say that the crack keeps getting bigger every time.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 01-22-2007 02:52
Harvard: Low Hydrogen, (7018 rod), is excellent for repairing everything EXCEPT heavy equipment sometimes.

I have heard other welders talk of equipment welding repairs not succeeding because the rod used was 7018. I'm a big fan of low hydrogen, I've seen it succeed when other rod failed, but I think you're in a whole new ball park.

Research equipment repair a bit and then go with the suggested rod. One thing you have to remember about heavy equipment is that the stress is full contact all the time, not intermediate, much like our bodies. If you weld with 7018 it will last, but not long on something like that. You need something stronger.

Some body that has dealt with heavy equipment, give me hand on this one would you!?
Parent - By cmays (***) Date 01-22-2007 03:10
Harvard:
Ususally on any equipment repair I use 8018 but mostly11018. On surface cracks I usually gouge about as deep as I can get, drill the holes on each end and then give a slight preheat before welding. Ive found that if you have access to arc gouging equipment use it! Make sure if you are running multiple passes clean clean clean after each pass. Theres no need to get in a rush. Just keep from getting it too hot or your arc characteritics will get sloppy. Keep checking your post because some of these other guys that post here have some really great methods. I would start out by getting away from that 7018E though.
Parent - By XPERTFAB (**) Date 01-22-2007 07:20
Please specify what portion of the boom is repeatedly cracking and if possible the orientation of the crack relative to the boom length centerline.  Email me with this information next week and although I will be extremely busy the next ten days, I will provide you with what you need to repair this situation.  Vintage and serial number of the machine along with boom section length would be helpful as well.  You will need some method accurately guaging preheat and interpass tempatures such as an infared pyrometer, direct contact pyrometer or tempstik in preferrably that order of preference.  Additionally you will need some method, as may be availble to you, to slow the cooling rate of completed weld repair.
Parent - By SWP (**) Date 01-22-2007 15:23
It's important to know if the continued cracking occurs in the heat affected zone (HAZ) of the base metal next to the weld, or is it actually in the weld metal? 
Was the original crack in the base metal, or in an original weld, or associated with a weld.
Is there a notch of some kind that is acting as the initiation point for the crack?
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 01-22-2007 18:19
Its unlikely that the Boom is T1. Most of the time they use A36 depending on what part of the Boom you are working on.

I would venture the fish plate was the correct move to make as long as you do not weld straight across. Use a Diamond shaped fish plate. Tell us more about where the crack is and 7018 is the filler of choice.
Parent - - By Harvard (*) Date 01-22-2007 23:43
Thanks guys thats alot of info. The crack in the boom is closer to the operators cab then anything else. And, on the opposite side it is cracking also. And the crack is in the metal, not weld, not attachments close to it. Like it just appeared. And, sometimes the crack starts in the end of the weld, both ends, then moves to the side, and then the last time it started in the haz and then moved in the weld. Dont get it. If I can I will try to take a picture of it, well, the fish plate at least. And, on the fish plate I did use a diamond shape and didnt weld the ends. Well, on the 7018 issue thats all they will buy us, no matter what. But, I do have a wire feeder to run off my welder, a Miller Big 50, just got it Saturday! Any way, I dont really like to use the wire feeder in the field, to me at least not good enough conditions. And, on the fixing cracks, so I should drill holes in the ends every time? And, then fill them up? Also, the crack is probably about 1/4 of the way up the boom from the machine. The machine is only a year or two old. When I usually cut out cracks I take and scarf out until the metal glows red, and then I stop. And, I run the first pass with 3/32 7018 and I can see a key hole open up but the 3/32 fills up right up. If you need anything else about this, please let me know to correct this problem.
Thanks,
Chris
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 01-23-2007 00:29
Hello Chris, I would have one comment for you to consider on this particular problem. A number of years ago I worked for a heavy equipment manufacturer. We had a CAT 245 trackhoe come into the shop from Alaska, the mainboom had broken in half. The machine only had around 80 hrs. or so on it, we wanted to be sure that we could do an adequate job of repairing it so we went ahead and had the material analyzed to determine the grade so as to match everything properly. It turned out to be plain old A-36 and nothing fancy. Since we had it in a shop environment we went ahead and prepped all the surfaces and put in backing strips for full-pen preps. and welded it out. We also got ahold of Cat's procedures for boom repair and reinforcement practices and designed fishplates to help with the reinforcement and carefully followed their welding procedures. The point here, is that Cat has information available to help you to make repairs and design approved reinforcements for their booms. If you can, see about getting this information to help you with this particular issue. This was a lot of years ago so things could have changed in regards to the availability of this information and also the type of steel used in this boom but it's worth a try to find out. Good luck and regards, aevald
Parent - By samh (**) Date 01-23-2007 01:10
Hello chris, most of my work is with heavy equipment. Aevald has the right answer. But from experience i can tell you that it is best to run multiple stringers instead of a wide lacing bead. Almost everytime i would cap off with a wide bead it would crack back out. Plating it was the best thing if you are unable to get a full penetration weld but i would recommend calling Cat for the best advise. Good luck   
Parent - - By whiteyford M1A1 (**) Date 01-28-2007 16:30
Hello
Lots of good advice offered here, now for my 2 cents worth. Cat should provide some degree of support ie weld procedure.
I have worked on alot of heavy equipment and its frustrating when you do your best and a problem still persists. Luckily for you your work enviroment lets you witness the result of your work, and others. So many production shop welders make welds that aren't stressed until thier put into service months later and never experience any direct feedback.
It's a shame your co worker won't offer advise, you on the other hand have taken initiative and are most likely here trying to solve this problem on your own time because you care! See other post (what happened to all the welders).
I remember spending counteless hours scarfing and repairing cracked out welds on draglines, Dozers and loaders, seamed like a never ending job.
On repeating crack locations I like to slow things down a bit and take my time on all aspects of prep and welding.


My procedure
Air Arc out any filler and longitudinally 3x the material thickness, Transition out at 45 degrees +
Grind gouged area and surrounding area at least 3" away from crack provide a 1/4 " root opening
Check prepped area with Dye Pen
With a little finaggling it's possible to slip a 1/4" backup bar into the opening,
I usually tack a welding rod to the bar and slip it in, it has to fit tight against the back of the joint, tack.
I add 2" long start/runoff strips on the excavated ends. 
Use a fresh box of 7018, I hope you haven't been using the open box behind your seat!(hydrogen embritlement)
Preheat the entire area to 200 f and maintain it until complete, stay out of the wind. (500 Max)
I use a back step technique completing each rod into the start of the previous rod, with exception for the cap.
No wide weaves (+2.5 X rod diameter), use stringers and plan every rod placement to aviod a previous start or stop. (soapstone marks)
When placing stringers be sure to allow for the rod diameter on adjacent passes.
Take your time chipping the flux let it cool for a minute. Clean thoroughly after every rod.
I also use a temper bead technique for capping where toeline welds are placed first and work toward the center, the temper bead is the final stringer placed up the middle of the cap.
Cap reinforcement should not exceed 3/32" No undercut/underfill allowed.
Use the runnoff tabs for starts and stops on the ends.
Let cool slowly
Remove runoff tabs and feather grind ends.
This method has worked on alot of previously welded repair locations with much success.
Thats my 2 cents worth, The only time I use a fish plate is when someone else insists. I trust that the engineer did his job.Thanks Randy



Parent - By Harvard (*) Date 01-28-2007 19:40
Thanks guys. My procedure for fixing a crack is to scarf it out (Im not allowed to use an air arc) until I start seeing the metal start glowing red, its a bit tricky but possible. Then grind, usually the metal starts turning blue. And, then use 3/32 7018 for the root pass. Now, when I am putting in the root pass, the 7018 opens up a keyhole then fills it right back in. Sometimes it sucks. Then, I grind and start running 1/8 for a couple of passes, or if it is thick enough I step up to 5/32. And, thats it. Is there anything else I can do? The company wont buy dye pen. and temp sticks and all of that. Some of the foreman just see welding as a thing to be done when the machine isnt running. Thanks everyone for your help.
Thanks,
Chris
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 01-28-2007 20:44
Randy, that was a great reply. Geographically speaking, you may find that fish plates might have to do with the area of operation for a specific machine. I live in the Northwest where many of these machines are highly modified from their initial intended purpose. Most of the trackhoes that are built are specifically designed for excavation and demolition purposes, thus, their original designs are sufficient for that. Where I live there is a considerable amount of logging that still takes place, in most cases these machines are outfitted with grapples, log processing heads, and many other types of modifications. A great amount of additional stresses and the like are exerted on these machines requiring a different approach to their repair and or modification. Presently there are also many different manufacturers of specific types of equipment for the logging industry, these machines have very noticeable engineering designs to allow for the differences in their use. I can certainly appreciate the care that you described in your post with regards to repairs, I would venture to say that you have a very good success rate on your work. Regards, aevald
Parent - - By Southpaw (*) Date 01-28-2007 20:37
My two cents. I worked for Volvo Construction Equipment for 16 year as a weld inspector. You can have all the best procedures in place for the repair but this may not help. The piece of equipment has limits. Is it possible this you are using the machine for something new or different. Maybe a new operator? I do know from past experience if you put that bucket into pushing loads from the side of the bucket you will open up a bad can of worms.    
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 01-29-2007 05:57
Another $.02: I see this as a fatigue issue, the machine isn't engineered for the loads it is recieving. These cracks happen because the material is being loaded to too close to it's yeild point. If good parent material cracked while the machine is still relatively new I don't think the problem can be resolved permanantly without adding more material to withstand the load. While Randy's method should make the repair as strong as the surrounding material, that is probably not enough. If the machine was properly engineered for the abuse it is being given, there wouldn't be a crack in the first place.
Parent - By Harvard (*) Date 01-30-2007 00:11
Thanks alot guys. The operator has been running trac hoes for about 30yrs. So, I dont think that it is him. Although, they have gotten a new foremen there, and he mite be using it for something it wasnt meant to do. Who knows, all that I know is that after I fish plated it,(knock on wood here) I havent heard anything.
Thanks Alot guys,
Chris
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Weld Cracking issuse???

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