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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Acceptance Criteria - ASME VIII
- - By FloridaSnook (**) Date 02-05-2007 19:07
I do not have access to a copy of ASME Section VIII, Division 1 and I need to know if that document itself contains weld quality acceptance criteria or if it references the user to another AMSE document (such as B31.3)?  I am specifically interested in knowing the allowable limits (if any) of undercutting on a heat exchanger fabricated to Section VIII.
Parent - - By RANDER (***) Date 02-05-2007 19:59
UW-35 FINISHED LONGITUDINAL AND
CIRCUMFERENTIAL JOINTS

(b) A reduction in thickness due to the welding process
is acceptable provided all of the following conditions
are met.
(1) The reduction in thickness shall not reduce the
material of the adjoining surfaces below the minimum
required thickness at any point.
(2) The reduction in thickness shall not exceed 1/32
in. (1 mm) or 10% of the nominal thickness of the adjoining
surface, whichever is less.8

8 It is not the intent of this paragraph to require measurement of
reductions in thickness due to the welding process. If a disagreement
between the Manufacturer and the Inspector exists as to the acceptability
of any reduction in thickness, the depth shall be verified by actual
measurement.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-05-2007 23:16
I take that to mean no more than 1/32nd undercut or 10% whichever is less. It may not specifically state undercut, the end result is the same. The difference that I see is in how it's treated. Assuming your under the values of UW 35, you can simply blend rather than fill an undercut. But an Undercut greater than has to be filled. If any of you feel this is the wrong interpretation please let me know.
Parent - - By new tito (***) Date 02-05-2007 20:06
ASME Sec VIII div 1 has it's own acceptance criteria and does not reference the user to another code provided that the issue you are inquiring about is within the scope of the code...which I assume it is. 

as for your specific question regarding undercut, here's what it says - 

UW-35 FINISHED LONGITUDINAL AND CIRCUMFERENTIAL JOINTS
(b) a reduction in thickness due to the welding process is acceptable provided all of the following conditions are met - (1) the reduction in thickness shall not reduce the material of the adjoining surfaces below the minimum required thickness at any point. (2) the reduction in thickness shall not exceed 1/32" or 10% of the nominal thickness of the adjoining surface, whichever is less.

I'm curious though, about why you would not have access to ASME sec VIII if you are inspecting to it.

edit - got beat to it.  sorry for having 2X the info
Parent - By FloridaSnook (**) Date 02-05-2007 20:24
We received the vessel as a component to install...I simply observed the undercut and was curious what the code required of the manufacturer and whether or not I needed to bring it to the attention of the project engineer.  While I am a CWI, we do not typically deal with coded vessels and thus, do not have a copy of the code(s).
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 02-05-2007 20:09
To my knowledge the ASME codes contain their own acceptance criteria when it comes to weld quality. And I do not know of an instance where the Boiler
Codes cross over to the Pressure Piping codes, or vice versa (except for ASME II, V, and IX for obvious reasons). For example, much of the impact testing stuff of all ASME codes, and even AWS for that matter, are built from ASME VIII (the grandfather of all toughness testing), but that doesn't mean they simply adopt those regimes. Each of these codes are designed for differing applications and therefore would require an approach specific to those services involved.
Parent - By thirdeye (***) Date 02-05-2007 20:11
I am in the field on a job myself, so I'm about to break one of Chet's rules: "Don't quote the Code without a copy in your hands", that being said...

Yes, Section VIII does address weld quality acceptance criteria.  I don't believe that Section VIII uses the actual term "undercut".  It does mention that the toes shall blend smoothly into the base material, and in another paragraph refers to "reduction in thickness due to the welding process", leading you to believe that it is referring to undercut.  There is, by the way, a definition of undercut in Section IX.  Sorry I could not be more helpful.

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By FloridaSnook (**) Date 02-06-2007 12:21
Additional background....this specific weld is a branch connection where a 6" (assuming SCH80) piece is attached to the shell.  The piece is rather short with a flange at the end which does not give sufficient room to place my gage (G.A.L. Bridge Cam) along the piece to obtain a direct measuement.  It appears the weld was deposited via flux core...the top toe is where the undercut is evident around approx 60-75% of the entire weld.  Thanks guys for all your feedback.
Parent - - By FloridaSnook (**) Date 02-06-2007 14:23
...found and ordered a special undercut gage (SUB-25) from GAL....much smaller size that will fit in the tight space I have...will now be able to determine if it exceeds 1/32"
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 02-06-2007 14:37
Is that the small square gage with different points in each corner?  They are a must have.

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By FloridaSnook (**) Date 02-06-2007 15:16
Yes, thats the one...more toys for my bag!
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 02-06-2007 15:26
Floridasnook, you said "We received the vessel as a component to install..."  Is it a stamped vessel?  You may find some difficulty in airing your concerns if it has already had AI review and stamping.  Are you sure the undercutting wasn't already addressed by your supplier?  Is the undercut nonconforming?
Parent - - By new tito (***) Date 02-06-2007 16:29
If YOU are the customer, you have every right to re-inspect and challenge the AI.  Yes, the AI theorhetically has the final say on that vessel, but I'd call him out on it.  BUT MAKE SURE YOU ARE 100% RIGHT!!!!

AI's are human, and a WHOLE LOT of them do not actually visually inspect every weld on vessels.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 02-06-2007 16:31
Even better, get your own AI involved.
Parent - - By new tito (***) Date 02-06-2007 16:50
That may be a dead end if the final assembly is not code stamped or to include inspection by an AI. i.e., the part in question is not an actual "part" stamped coded vessel that is a "part" of another coded vessel.

Not correcting you Jon, but I've found that our AI stays out of another AI's work (for another MFG) if it does not directly involve something that he is to sign off on.  Now, if it is just complete ignorance and/or lack or ethical judgement, he could possibly take action against the other AI's NB endorsements, but I would think it would have to be something drastic.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 02-06-2007 17:18
new tito, I agree, and you're not correcting me, I said what I said to have the poster think about what level of importance his concern is.  Speaking strictly for myself, I would never go down the path we're talking about unless there was an absolutely blatant error or defect.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-06-2007 19:30
What path forward would you take if it was a blatant error?
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 02-06-2007 19:54
I would do just as new tito said above, reinspect, contact my supplier and challenge their stamping of a vessel containing defects.  In an extreme case, I may even require a repair, but as a minimum I would require a nonconformance report with a disposition meeting my PO and Code.
Parent - - By FloridaSnook (**) Date 02-07-2007 00:10
Yes, it is stamped "U" which is why I referenced Section VIII, Division 1 in my orginal post.  The undercut "appears" to me to exceed 1/32" but not by much....knowing that I need to be prepared to backup my claim, I ordered the smaller SUB-25 Undercut Gage from GAL which I should receive tomorrow.  The piece of 6" pipe that is attached to outer shell of the vessel is very short (maybe 3") and has a flange on the end which kept me from using my standard Bridge Cam gage to obtain an actual measurement.  Hopefully the new gage will at least assit in better judging whether or not the depth exceeds 1/32" and thus, if it needs to be identifed and questioned further.  I'll post an update after I have had a chance to examine the questionable weld with the new gage.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-07-2007 03:27
Hey Florida Snook!

Is the undercut greater than 10% of the "nominal" thickness of the adjoining surface also?
Just curious since it's already been stamped. I'm guessing here but, I believe "whichever is less" seems to jump out at me in determining what makes it acceptable or not and why it's been stamped...

In other words, the undercut greater than 1/32" or the undercut that barely exceeds 10% of the nominal thickness of the adjoining surface, and this needs to be verified to determine which is less...
Then again, I'm just thinking about CYA - one's own that is!!! If I'm barking up the wrong tree, please let me know - TIA!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-07-2007 04:24
I wouldn't use the word "undercut". ASME Section VIII doesn't use that term. As an inspector/examiner, I can only reject the welded component for the welding attributes and acceptance criteria provided by the applicable construction code. If the owner or customer wants something different than what the construction code requires, it should have been noted in the project specifications or purchase order.

That's not to say you can't question something that is perceived as a problem, just use the proper terminology as provided by the construction code. Its material thinning due to the manufacturing process, not undercut.

Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-07-2007 04:57 Edited 02-07-2007 19:27
Well excuse me Al!!!

I was just refering to the term that everyone else was using in the thread...  Btw, I believe "RANDER" & "Thirdeye already pointed that out in  previous posts on this thread, and already mentioned to prefer using the phrase "a reduction in thickness due to the welding processes" with respect to ASME Section VIII.

I was merely saving time by using the word "UNDERCUT" in my reply - SHEESSH!!!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-08-2007 21:04
My reply wasn't directed to you. I just happen to hit the reply button at the end of the thread. I would never make my reply to a thread a personal attack on you or anyone else. Well, almost never.  No offence was meant. Really!

Humbled - Al
Parent - - By RANDER (***) Date 02-07-2007 14:28 Edited 02-07-2007 14:31
ASME Sec VIII Div 1 Part UHT

UHT-84 WELD FINISH
The requirements of UW-35(a) and UW-51(b) shall
be met except that for SA-517 material the maximum
weld reinforcement shall not exceed 10% of the plate
thickness or 1/8 in. (3.0 mm), whichever is less. The edge
of the weld deposits shall merge smoothly into the base
metal without undercuts or abrupt transitions; this requirement
shall apply to fillet and groove welds as well as to
butt welds.

Here they use the actual term undercut.  Just FYI not saying this part applies to your particular situation but interesting to note the differences in the text.
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 02-07-2007 16:05
Rander,

Thanks for pointing out that reference to undercut.  I don't play in that area of Section VIII, but for 30 years everyone has been agreement that the term uncercut does not exist in Section VIII.  With the correct wording, I predict I will be winning a few lunch wagers with QC Managers ...  LOL

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-07-2007 19:35
So much for Al's big speech on not using the term "UNDERCUT" when refering to ASME Section VIII...
Well, I wonder what term should we use now???

As far as I'm concerned, I'm ALWAYS going to use the term "UNDERCUT" - PERIOD!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-08-2007 21:59
What is the inspector's reply when challenged by the fabricator and they say, "Show us where "undercut" is not permitted by ASME Section VIII?"

Using terminology that isn't consistent with the applicable construction code makes the inspector's position appear to be subjective instead of objective and places the inspector into a situation that has to be defended if challenged. The inspector should not put himself or herself into the position of having to defend their assessment of a weld.  The discontinuity is simply "base metal thinning due to welding". That position is easily sustainable. The inspector's position is objective instead of subjective when the inspector uses the same terminology used by the applicable construction code.

An experienced welding inspector understands that "undercut" and "base metal thinning" is essentially the same thing when used in the context of what is being discussed in this thread. However, controversy is sidestepped by using the same terminology as that used by the applicable construction code. Another example is "lack of fusion" versus "incomplete fusion". Which is the proper terminology? If the inspector is working in the oil patch and API 1104 is the governing document, "lack of fusion" is the proper term. However, if AWS D1.1 is the governing welding document, "incomplete fusion" is the proper term.

Lawyers have a field day when inspectors don't use terminology that is consistent with the applicable construction/fabrication documents.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 02-08-2007 22:48
I see where you are coming from ..... But since the Code actually reads "a reduction in thickness due to the welding PROCESS" wash should be included right along with undercut.  And what about grinding, blending and filing...do you feel that those are part of the "welding process"? If so, now we have a variety of specific things that could fall under a broader term, any of which could be rejectable if excessive.

Not trying to pick anything or anyone apart here, just curious how different folks define "welding process".

~thirdeye~
Parent - By RANDER (***) Date 02-08-2007 22:54
Thirdeye,
We did have an Inspector require weld buildup on a vessel where they had gotten a little carried away with the grinder while replacing nozzles.  He cited the forementioned paragraph and had full support of the refinery inspection group. Repairs were made immediately. 
Parent - - By RANDER (***) Date 02-08-2007 22:49
Al, I agree completely in regards to using the appropriate terminology in a formal written report.  I believe SSBN727 was speaking off the record and casually to a group of peers who know what is meant by a reduction in thickness due to the welding process.  I certainly wont tell a welder that he should "Use the Gas tungsten arc welding process for the root pass and finish it out with the shielded metal arc welding process." more like " Tig the root and stick it out" however a wps would have GTAW/SMAW on it.  I also havent seen any NDE reports with a category labeled "A reduction in thickness . . .. .  "   I always see Undercut as a category but that may just be a West Coast thing. 
Anyways not trying to debate anything,  I agree Formal report = Proper Terminology = CYA
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-09-2007 03:07
It will be undercut on a report until someone deems it necessary to correct me.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-10-2007 20:16
I agree that the forum is casual or we like to think it is. I agree that we all use slang when engaged in casual conversation.

I do find it vexing when I see nonstandard terminology used in AWS standards and specifications or in an inspection report. I finding it troublesome because the AWS documents developed by AWS committees and inspection reports written by AWS CWIs and SCWIs are suppose to be written by experts in our field. AWS codes, standards, and specifications typically include a reference to AWS A3.0, but never the less, the nonstandard term(s) appear in some of the documents. The trained CWI or SCWI should know the proper term to be used depending on the code or standard being referenced. As I stated, the inspector can keep their reports objective and will find themselves on the defensive less often when they use the proper terminology.

As for NDE reports that use a checklist of discontinuities, I agree, there is not usually a heading that lists, "a reduction in thickness", however, these are the same reports where you will find nonstandard terms such as "Lack of Fusion", "Lack of Penetration", etc. when describing the results of an examination for a structure fabricated to D1.1. Do we, as inspectors, know what is meant? I hope so, but to the person that is not as familiar with the various terms used by our industry, it can be troublesome.

Is it right or is it wrong to use nonstandard terminology? We are trying to communicate effectively and not everyone we communicate with is familiar with our terminology. If we stay with standard terms, the reader can look up the word in the industry accepted standard "AWS A3.0 Standard Welding Terms and Definitions". Consider the difficulty we have when someone from overseas writes a post in this forum. We struggle to understand their question when they don't use standard terminology or when they struggle with our language. Imagine what a difficult time they have when they read our replies and we use nonstandard terminology. Where do they go to look up a definition of a nonstandard term? Our global economy is here to stay. We need a means of communicating with our suppliers, our customers, and each other.

Let's not forget that the original question was how to interpret and evaluate a weld discontinuity that isn't described in ASME B&PV Code Section VIII using a standard AWS term. Consider the number of replies to this thread and how the problem described has been addressed. Is it undercut? We sometimes forget what "ASME" stands for, so I'll leave you with this reminder: "Alway, Sometimes, Maybe, or Except". Enough from the bully pulpit. I may have strayed from the original question raised by this thread.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-07-2007 21:42
Rander,

A semi off topic question. "shall merge smoothly into the base metal without undercuts or abrupt transistions." the abrupt transition part, do you know if anywhere in section VIII that specifies the definition of abrupt transition or smooth transition for anything other than different thicknesses?
Parent - - By RANDER (***) Date 02-08-2007 15:19
I cant say that I have seen such a definition. 
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 02-08-2007 16:19
Me neither.  In my opinion it's an old-timey kind of thing like the torque value statement "the full efforts of an ordinary man using a spud wrench."  Silly as it seems to us, a lot of this stuff was easy to comprehend by those who wrote it many years back...
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-09-2007 03:03
To my knowledge, there is no definition for it in section VIII. They will tell you a 3:1 ratio on a thickness transition but not what the definition of "merge smoothly". I've had more than one heated debate on that, but without specific code reference it's up to opinion. Therein is the problem.
I can have the opinion that a 89.5 degree edge for the maximum reinforcement is "merge smoothly" and no one could produce a section VIII reference that I am aware of that will dispute that. A term that is not defined in the code, used to be up to common sense, a welders pride and skill, and the same for the inspector. Now it's more about what can they get away with. The code should not use vague terms that are not defined at all, or vaguely defined. my two cents worth.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-08-2007 21:17
Its interesting that the paragraph only applys to SA-517.

Where is the term "undercut" used to describe a discontinuity in any other section of ASME Section VIII? I only have 2001 with the 2003 addenda, so a more recent edition may include the term.

As mentioned, it may be worth a free lunch sometime (not for you "ssbn727").

Best regards - Al
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-09-2007 19:27
That's okay Al! I usually skip lunch anyway, but thanks for thinking about me in any event!!!;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By RANDER (***) Date 04-16-2007 21:12
I was poking around Sec VIII today and noticed a reference to the UHT-84 paragraph regarding the term Undercut.  It is in Div 1, part ULT - 82 (b) - 2004 ed

(b) For 5%, 8%, or 9% nickel steels, the provisions
of UHT-82, UHT-83, UHT-84, and UHT-85 apply.

Not a direct use but it does refer you to the appropriate paragraph
Parent - - By FloridaSnook (**) Date 02-07-2007 16:05
""Update""

Received my UPS package from GAL Gage Co this AM as promised....after re-examining the questionable weld, the "undercut" / "reduction in base metal" is 1/32" and less...I did not find any portion where the depth exceeded 1/32".  The wall thickness of the piece is 0.432" so the 10% of nomimal wall thickness does not come into play either.  I didn't want to open a can of worms unless the concern was well founded....I'm glad I purchased the gage and confirmed it meets code.  Thanks to everyone who gave their input!
Parent - - By thirdeye (***) Date 02-07-2007 16:24
You probably should have bought two or three. I've found it's easier to give them away that to get them swiped. LOL  Are they still like $15 or something?

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By FloridaSnook (**) Date 02-07-2007 16:37
$20.75 directly from GAL
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 04-17-2007 04:09
Interesting - did you know a #2 paper clip is 1/32" in diameter?  I can get a lifetime supply for less than $20! 
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Acceptance Criteria - ASME VIII

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