National Match M1A

Date 02-15-2007 01:30

Hey Tim,
I'll try to give you a few pointers, advice, and personal experience with the M1A(M14). As a retired Master Gunsmith, I have retained all the fond memories of the firearms I feel are the best in the world. First, IMHO, there is no combat rifle that can hold a candle to the M1 Garand(30-06). It was the finest combat weapon a soldier could have, with a kill range over 1000 yards. Its only complaint, by very few, was its weight of 11+ pounds. Only the "little" guys really complained, and very few of them.

The M14 was an improved M1 Garand receiver, modified for a detachable magazine, and shortened and lightened. It was chambered for the 308 Winchester (NATO standard). It is also gas-operated as the Garand. The M14 would be my second choice as a combat weapon. The 308 is also capable of a kill at 1000 yards, but the ballistics are diminished more than the 30-06. The 308 Win. is an unbelievably accurate cartridge. Of course, handloads make it even more accurate.

The M1A is the civilian version of the M14, and is closed bolt design for semi-auto operation only. The M14 is an open-bolt design for the selective feature of full auto. The rifles are identical other than that feature.

I used to shoot, back in the early-mid 70's, at Williamsport, Pa in the 1000 yard competition. I have a National Match M1 Garand I got in '69 from the DCM. Still shoot it. It will still put 5 rounds in a 1/2" hole at 100 yards with the original peep sights. I have a healthy supply of 30-06 National Match ammo I got in '69-'70. The M14 (M1A) will also print groups like that. What was fascinating back then was watching the 308 bullets at 600 yards in flight on their way to 1000 yards. You could see them as their velocity was really falling off, but not their inherent accuracy. We were looking thru 60X-100X spotting scopes to spot the target hits.

Anyway, I can only suggest that if you have a hankering for a rifle such as the M1A, by all means, get one. It will never let you down. As with all firearms(and welding), practice makes one better and better. If you have the option to handload your own ammo, you will see how the M1A will really shine with accuracy. Remember though, the M1A, like the M14, is rifled for the heavier 160+ grain bullets, and they love the 168 grain Matchking bullet.

Ok, youngster, hope I helped you a bit. The smart investment is the cranial investment with research and any literature on firearms and ballistics. Feel free to query my residual knowledge base, as I have fairly well retained the firearms/ammunition information I acquired in 30 years....Keep us posted....Good Luck...Denny

By Harvard (*)

Date 02-15-2007 01:37

And watch out so you dont get what my grandfather calls M1 thumb. I guess he got it back when he was in the marines. Putting in another clip and the bolt just slid back and boom, broken thumb!
Chris

By norcalwelder (**)

Date 02-15-2007 02:27

Thanks very much for the info. Me and my bro's all reload our ammo, so I would be able to do that. Thats some incredable accuracy!! As I told my dad, I said dad, a rifle like that would'nt depreciate in value like a car would.=) lol

By CWI555

Date 02-15-2007 04:59

I have one and like it a lot. At risk of offending certian sensibilities of others, I prefer an HK PSG1. Initially they were hard to come by. (I believe the initial import of these rifles was less than 400). I have the good fortune of owning one. The only down side in my eyes to this rifle is it tends to aggressively eject the brass. I have to be mindful of people to my right when firing this rifle. However, it's not as hard as it used to be to have one. I've recently noted all parts necassary can be found in the shotgun news. I imagine I am not the only one to have noted it.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 02-15-2007 11:03

I'm not offended, but if you are saying that your HK can shoot as acurately as an NM MIA, You will have me beleiving that you are using some illegal recreational chemicals. You are right about the brass however. HK is the only semi-auto in the world that throws the brass as far as the projo!! Ha! Ha! LOL

By norcalwelder (**)

Date 02-15-2007 21:49

I am interested in the M1A because its a classic gun.(walnut stock) I'm not real big on the black guns. I cant get one till i'm 16-17, so I have awhile to look at all the options.=) I supose it would'nt be peracticle to carry around a 11 pound gun in deer season. lol

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 02-15-2007 22:54

Hey Tim,
I'm going to help you towards your firearms education. Ok....the M1A is not a classic "gun", that is a misnomer as is a "black gun". It may be referred to as a classic "firearm", "rifle", or "weapon"...not a "gun". A "black gun" is a black fibre-stocked or composite stocked rifle or shotgun. These stocks are extremely durable, weather-resistant, and can take severe abuse. If your pap was in the military, ask him if he remembers or knows the famous poem: "THIS IS MY RIFLE....THIS IS MY GUN....THIS IS FOR FIGHTIN'....THIS IS FOR FUN". You will then know how to use the correct terminology for any weapon. It can be practical to carry an 11lb. rifle if one learns technique. My flintlock Hawken muzzleloader weighs 10.2lbs and is quite manageable. I could lighten it by changing to a composite stock, but I really like the beauty of the marbled French Walnut stock it has. Anyway youngster, hope to educate you regarding any questions you may have, and will get you on the correct path of firearm "lingo".....Denny

By norcalwelder (**)

Date 02-16-2007 02:29

Lol thanks. I know its not just a "gun". Its a gas operated, auto loading, clip fed, sniping rifle. rofl I thought that the term "black gun" referred to a assult-style weapon. Not really color. I USED to have a reputation for damaging the stocks of firearms. Thats why my .22 has a composite stock.=) You can hardly tell I dropped off a bridge. (Ha ha no I havent done that YET) I really apperciate your willingness to help out the younger bunch.

Tim

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 02-16-2007 03:28

Hey Tim,
Ok...some more education. You are correct in your description of gas operated, auto loading, clip fed, but incorrect to generalize "sniping rifle". A "sniper rifle" is a rifle specifically designed and configured for the art of one-shot kills at extreme ranges, generally in excess of 500 yards. They will "reach out and touch" consistently and deadly. The school I attended in '62, and passed, was the ability to hit a cantaloupe at 800 yards. These rifles are camouflaged, heavy-barrel, bolt-action, silencer-equipped, with a rangefinding military-reticled scope generally 12X-60X magnification, and either 30-06 or 308 caliber....these are US parameters. Other countries use different configurations such as the deadly Dragunov. The M1A is classified as a gas operated, center-fire, auto loading, detachable magazine, military "style" rifle.

Next....a "black gun" is not an "assault-style" weapon. The term "assault" is defined as: "a violent attack", "attempt to do physical harm", and "causing a present fear of immediate harm". Soooooo.....in reality, any weapon can be classified as an "assault" weapon if it is used in those definitions. It is a shame the media has "branded" many fine military rifles as such. Listen youngster, war and combat is hell.....I know....been there...done that. I don't wish anyone the experience.....and I pray for all those involved. Weaponry has been designed throughout history for one reason....

A firearm is simply a tool....just like any tool....has a purpose to do a job....the tool must be used properly and knowledgeably to be effective. Ok...keep on inquiring....we will teach you "grasshopper"......Denny

By norcalwelder (**)

Date 02-16-2007 04:09

I never looked at a the term "assault rifle" in that light. I guess that a firearm is a firearm no matter how fast it shoots, how big it's bullet is, or what color the stock is. I totaly agree with you that a firearm is a tool. Respected, but not feared.

By CWI555

Date 02-16-2007 17:16

Not talking about a standard HK 91. PSG1 is another animal all together.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 02-16-2007 20:41

I know the difference. My Brother had one. We both have M1As, (Springfield Armory Super Mach heavy barrel) I also have an M1 converted by Springfield Armory to .308 "Supermatch". I had an older MARS CETME "Sport" which I would compare to the PSG-1 in accurracy, that could do less than one inch groups at 100 Yds. with Match ammo.

It eventually went full auto, and I sold it to a dealer. The only way to get parts was to get them from a G3 Machine gun. ATF told me that I had a "malfunctioning Firearm" and I would not be arrested by them for it. ( I live in the Police State of NY, so I didn't trust them.) However, I was told that mere possession of the G-3 Triger group, with which I was trying to repair the CETME Sport, was "Constructive Possession" of a class 3 firearm. I bought that gun back in the 60's, before the latest "black gun" craze. That CETME Sport was not the current CETME.

I saw a GSG 9 Test report on the PSG-1, and it did not have the advertised accurracy. That report also quoted an Austrian Army test that had "less than advertized" performance. (My brother bought it because he was shown it by a police equipment salesman.) Both our M1As and my M1 Garrand conversion shoot more accurrately than that PSG-1. One thing I did like about the PSG -1 was, that my brother sold it for about twice what he paid for it when he was on the police force!

I have fired the XM-21 in the 4th Division Sniper School at An-Khe, where I could sometimes hit Jerry cans at 1000 meters (on the North side of the "Golf Course"). A lot of that was luck, because the NM Ammo had a CEP of 5 or 6 inches at 600 meters, by specification. Good feelings toward that XM-21 is why I bought a Springfield Armory M!-A as soon as I could. It can't shoot as accurrately as several other bolt actions that I have.

Today, I am so fat that I can watch my heart beat through the cross hairs when I sight at over 200 Yards. (Don't Get Older)

By norcalwelder (**)

Date 02-17-2007 16:22

My bro suggested that I look into the super match. The main differance seems to be the barrel. The super match has a heavy weight barrel and the national match has a med. What kind of accuracy differance can I expect? The price differance is large to. About $500-600.

By CWI555

Date 02-17-2007 19:44

I would suggest springing for the difference. As for accuracy difference, no one can tell you for sure what kind of difference to expect. There are to many mitigating factors in that. I can tell you between the two you've mentioned, the super match is the better rifle. Just depends on your budget ability.

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 02-24-2007 06:40

http://www.nra.org/article.aspx?id=7440
Describes a special match for m1a and m14 shooters this year at the National Matches at Camp Perry. So if you are a really good target shooter get the heavy barrel and go win the prize money.
Bill

By CWI555

Date 02-17-2007 19:36 Edited 02-17-2007 19:49

You are correct in your concern for the law. Mere possession of the parts are not in itself illegal, but if you have any variation of the rifle that it goes to then you could be facing charges. As an example, the auto carrier on an AR-15 or variant cannot make the firearm auto by itself, but possession of and or installation of in conjunction with ownership of said firearm constituents an illegal firearm. As for a PSG-1, the CETME does not compare at all. I have both, and side by side, the cetme just doesn't hold a candle. There are a little less than 500 true PSG-1 rifles in country. I have a national match as well, Between the two, I hit better with the PSG-1. Apples to apples, match ammo, I hit 3/4 MOA with the NM on average, and 1/2 MOA on average with the PSG-1. That is before tweek loading the rounds. Having said all that, it may be just the balance works for my particular reach and style. Which is something often overlooked. A rifle that works for 1 person, may not for another due to ergonomic and methodology issues. As for a bolt gun, none of the above will hold a candle to a finely tuned bolt gun. For that I have a 300 win mag improved, shilen select match HB, timney trigger on a custom stock of my own manufacture. When I haven't been drinking coffee and eating at the heart attack cafe, It will beat the semi's hands down for accuracy.

BTW your brother should have hung on to the PSG-1 if it was an original. They are worth a considerable amount of money these days. Which is why mine has been in the vault for the past few years rather than being shot.