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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Heat treating 6061
- - By rebekah (**) Date 03-23-2007 14:44
Hey

I posted a question on Shoptalk about HT 6061 to T6, I gues it belongs here.  Anyone know if the soaking at 350F for 8 hours is an exact time--If I leave it longer will it damage the piece?  I know I can do 320F for 18 hours as well, but I dont know if I will be here to pull it out after exactly such time.  Also, does it just air cool at that stage, after the precipitation hardening?  I cant find a specific mention.  Is there a HT for dummies somewhere?

Thanks.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-23-2007 17:48
I'm thinking you need to contact one of the aluminum manufacturers for an answer to this one. T6 is a precipitation strengthening mechanism. If you're going to vary the times my guess is you need precipitation curves based upon time and temperature, and initial alloy content.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-23-2007 18:03
Here's another point. Have you given any thought to having to support your structure at those temps for solution heat treat. This stuff is going to be soft I would suspect.
The other thing is, if you T6 the weld are you overaging the BM?
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 03-23-2007 19:05 Edited 03-23-2007 19:08
Unfortunately the Aluminum Co I contacted didnt get back to me--ALCOwire I believe it was.  The problem is I have a time issue so I cant wait until Monday for an answer.  The engineers scoffed at the idea of needing this part HT at first, then decided they did want it when there wasnt time to send it away.  They asked if we could try and we (my boss) said yes but no guarantees.  The only thing is that this part is the only thing between alot of money and the bottom of the ocean.  Makes me very nervous, since I have no background (except in treating steel chisels, hammers, knives) in HT--which I made clear to my boss. 

I just finished step one of the process--the one hour at 975F with rapid quench--and that seemed to go alright.  The pieces have a wierd dull sound that is interesting.  We are going to put them in an oven overnight for the aging.  Still dont know if aging it for longer would damage it or if there is a next step or just to air cool. at that point.

I decided that the bit of weld with 4043 that was left was probably mixed with the base enough to make it a negligible problem, if a problem at all.  The part about overaging the BM, I am not sure I understand.  Wouldnt the soultion heat treat restore any of problem of overaging/overwelding?

The support part.  AL melts at 1200F, so it is still together at 975F.  I had the fixtures clamped so they wouldnt distort during the heating time.  I have to double check them but they should be good.

Thanks for the help.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-23-2007 19:37
You have tough problem. But if you perform your tensiles and bends on the PWHT material that should give you confidence you're alright. As for overaging, I don't know. Materials don't always go back to 'ground zero' with a solution anneal. In fact, many lose some tensile strength. Can't rmember why but I'm sure it has something to do with chemistries not homogenizing in solution anneals the way they do in casting from the molten state. I have no idea if this is the case with 6061 T6 but I thought I'd bring it up.
Had a wise old friend tell me once that he always felt more confidence with the competence of a person by the questions they ask, not their silence.
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 03-23-2007 19:52
Love your friend.  One of the people I work with is threaten when I ask questions, thinking I am trying to undermine them, when really I am just trying to UNDERSTAND what they are telling me. 
Oh well. 
Unfortunately, they ran out of time for a bend test--the engineers are really cutting it close on this one.  I am just going to do what I think the book is saying to do and if it works great, if it doesnt--they should have planned better.  I have been voicing my concern the whole time and will write up what I did and the justification for it for my files.  If this thing goes down, I want to have my ducks in a row, as much as I can.  Next time, maybe they wont dismiss having it done right, by experts who know what they are doing.

Really appreciate your help.

Rebekah
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 03-23-2007 20:09
Well, didn't help much, except maybe to commiserate. We've all been there.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-23-2007 21:19
rebekah,

I have really considered to participate since I honestly have problems (sometimes) of finding a way to compress what I actually want to say ("cut" myself off), so I beg your and the others pardon when not dealing with the intricate things being responsible, for what one can find when working with hardened Al-alloys.

But as js55 has already mentioned I agree that your situation is "tough" and thus any kind of good meant input may be helpful - hopefully the humble subsequent one may be such an input and may contribute a little to solve your "problem"!

First I honestly do not really know what alloy "4643" in chemical composition really is. It is unknown for me, yet.

But as it is designated with a "4" at its beginning I suppose it is a Silicon containing and thus a non hardenable alloy, which is also the case for "4043" (Al 5 Si).

Basically - someone may directly correct me if I am wrong (!) - I would weld the 6061 alloy (AlMgSiCu = hardenable) using a 5082 filler wire (AlMg4.5Mn in European standard). This wire we have used for welding high strength hardenable rail-track-vehicle 6xxx-aluminum-alloys. The weld-deposit is likewise not hardenable, but has a basically higher strength and ductility compared with the 4043, i.e. higher mechanical properties which may not act as a mechanical notch within the construction due to having no strength drop, compared with the base metal.

Well, quickly resume.

I could find out some concretely recommendations for values of strengthening 6061 base-metal:

- Solution annealing temperature: 530°C (= 986 F) +/- 10°C

- Quenching in water

- Artificial Aging temperature: 165°C (= 329 F) +/- 5°C

- Artificial Aging duration: 10 hours +/- 2 hours

What is slightly problematical or critical, is the duration of solution annealing (holding duration at solution annealing temperature without the time for heating up the material!) which depends strongly to the materials thickness, its original condition (T6 in your case) and the conditions of heating. As a rule of thumb one can say that in using an (I beg your pardon for not knowing the exact translation term for "Luftumwälzofen") air-circulating-furnace (?) and a materials thickness up to 10 mm, the duration is lying between ½ and 1 hour. But normally this is an information given best by the base materia lmanufacturer, just as also already mentioned by js55.

This is, what makes it so tricky to give a detailed recommendation to your topic, although you truly would have deserved it!

I hope this helps you!

Best Regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 03-23-2007 22:09
Stephan and JS55

Well, I got my first batch out and half had splits in the center of the fillet weld bead.  That might be technique (I ended the welds on the flat that would be ground which is only 0.5" wide where better technique might have been to wrap them to the wider flat that is 2.5" and end in the center there) or that my furnace (it is old and apparently cranky) started to get too hot so I pulled them out and, unthinkingly, set them on an ice cold steel table.  The second batch I wrapped the weld to the center of the widest part and didnt shock them like I did before and they are all (visually) fine. 

I showed the engineers what I got and they decided to do a LP test on them--adminstered by me--to double check if the welds are good before doing the precipitation hardening part of the HT process. 

Interestingly the two different batches have a different tonal quality--I have no idea what that means, but it was odd.

I appreciate your help!

Stephan--4643 is the right rod to use for heat treating, the "6" allows the material to accept the treatment, I believe it is for Mg but wouldnt bet my life on it.  I love the way German is built word upon word, it does make for some long words though!

Rebekah
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-24-2007 03:51
From the info You posted and what Stephan posted My guess is that the length of the "soak" is related to the temperature, so it might be practical to use a temperature that suits the overnight timeframe, if You can find such a chart.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-24-2007 11:54 Edited 03-24-2007 14:45
Hi Rebekah!

Here's what I got from the Alcotech site with respect to me making a somewhat "educated guess" as to why 4643 was chosen as opposed to a 4043:

"Using 6061-T6 to fabricate a large safety-critical lifting device that is required to undergo extensive welding during fabrication, followed by postweld solution heat treatment and artificial aging in order to restore some strength and return the structure to the -T6 temper. In this application our concerns may be the strength of our weld after it has been exposed to postweld heat treatment. Most filler alloys commonly used for welding this base material will not respond favorably to this type of heat treatment. The 5356, 5183, and 5556 filler alloys are non-heat treatable alloys which can undergo undesirable changes if subjected to this form of heat treatment. The 4043 filler alloy, on its own, is non-heat treatable and would be totally dependent on dilution with the base material in order to achieve any significant response to the heat treatment. In this application we should seriously consider the use of filler alloy 4643, which is a heat treatable filler alloy and will, therefore, respond to the heat treatment after welding and provide a weld of comparable strength to that of the base material."

This was referenced from "AlcoTechnics": http://www.alcotec.com/qanda5.htm

Here is a "Weld Data" sheet on alloy 4643 which explians in better detail as to why this filler was chosen as opposed to a 4043 or some other alloy instead:

http://www.alcotec.com/a4643tds.pdf

So the differences between 4043 & 40643 are:
1.) One alloy (4643) is a heat treatable alloy and one is NOT(4043).

2.) The 4643 is slightly better in corrosion resistance than 4043 and since this component will be headed below into a salty, somewhat corrosive environment such as the bottom of the ocean... Any advantage in corrosion resistance will help - no matter how little.

3.) 4643 has anywhere from 0.10 to 0.30 % of Magnesium as opposed to 0.05 % Mg in 4043.
However, I do not know if the Mg compatability would be a primary issue here if, and I say this without knowing what the actual joint configurations that were used in welding the component together and the specific weld process or the intended application of this component. It would certainly make a difference in groove welds when one compares the dilution of Mg in square groove as opposed to a vee groove or even a single bevel goove joint configurations when one uses the GMAW process.

All one has to do is to do the math here... For instance, the 6061-T6 has an approx content of 1% Mg... 4043 filler has an approx 0.05% Mg... In a square groove joint, it has been observed that approx 20% Mg (0.01%) is diluted into the weld from the filler and approx 80% (0.8%) of the rest of the total Mg content comes from the parent or base 6061-T6 alloy which would bring the total Mg content to approx: 0.81% Mg.

   0.01% = 20% of total Mg coalesced in weld from 4043 filler.
+ 0.80% = 80% of total Mg coalesced in weld from 6061-T6 base.
---------------------------------------------------------------
  0.81% = 100% of total Mg in weld found in a square groove joint.
Note: These are nominal values referenced from "AlcoTechnics" written by Tony Anderson.
You can find these values here:
http://www.alcotec.com/qanda3.htm
http://www.alcotec.com/a4043tds.pdf
http://www.alcotec.com/a4643tds.pdf

Now compare the total Mg content that has been found when one uses an alternative joint configuration... Instead of a square groove, a single bevel is used... Up to 60% (0.03%Mg) of the 0.05% Mg found in 4043 will dilute into the weld, with the balance of 40% (0.40%) coming from the 1% found in the 6061-T6 base...

   0.03% = total % of Mg coalesced in weld from 4043 filler.
+ 0.40% = total % of Mg coalesced in weld from 6061-T6 base metal.
------------------------------------------------------------------
   0.43% = total % of Mg found in weld when filler and base metal are coalesced together in alternative joint configuration.

This would therefore give one an approx total Mg content in the weld of: 0.43% Mg. Notice the difference in total nominal Mg percentage found in the weld when one compares between a square groove and a single bevel or vee groove??? Clearly there's less Mg in the weld when a single bevel as opposed to a square groove joint configuration is considered.

Now compare the total Mg content when 4643 is used as the filler instead of 4043...
Once again, we start with a square groove joint configuration whereby approx 1% Mg is found in the base  alloy 6061-T6, and 0.1 to 0.3% Mg found in the 4643 filler metal... We then use the same percentages of Mg found when one compares square vs single bevel or vee grooves whereby in a square groove, 20% of the Mg found in the weld comes from the filler and the 80% balance comes from the base metal... Everybody follow me so far? Okay, let's do the math: For a square groove, 20% of the 0.1 to 0.3% Mg found in the 4643 filler would equal to: 0.02 to 0.06% Mg... Now add that amount with the 80% balance of Mg found in the weld which came from the 6061-T6 base metal... this amount of Mg would be: .8% Mg... Now add the two percentage amounts which would be:

   0.02% to 0.06% = total % of Mg coalesced in weld from 4643 filler metal.
+ 0.80%     0.80% = total % of Mg coalesced in weld from 6061-T6 base metal.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
   0.82% to 0.86% = total Mg found in weld when filler and base metal are coalesced together in square groove joint configuration.

Last step is to compare the square groove total Mg content in the weld with what would be approximately found when one considers the use of either a single bevel or vee groove joint configuration...
So, the percentages change to 60% of the Mg is diluted into the weld, and the balance of 40% coming from the base metal... Hence - 0.06 to 0.18% of the total Mg found in the weld comes from the filler which would equal to 60% of the Mg found in the 4643 filler... Then the balance of 40% would come from the base metal and would amount to approx: 0.40% of Mg... Now let's add the two together...

   0.06 to 0.18% = total % of Mg coalesced in weld from 4643 filler metal.
+ 0.40     0.40% = total % of Mg coalesced in weld from 6061-T6 base metal.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   0.46 to 0.58% = total % Mg coalesced in weld when filler and base metal  are coalesced together in alternative joint configuration.

Now let's consider this from AlcoTechnics:
"Solidification crack sensitivity increases sharply with an increased Mg content up to about 1.5% and then starts to decrease with further Mg additions. (Figure 1 at Al-Mg curve)".

We have:
4043 filler+6061-T6 = Approx 0.81% total Mg content found in weld of a square groove joint.
4643 filler+6061T-6 = Approx 0.82 to 0.86 % total Mg content found in weld of a square groove joint.
Note: There's not too much of a difference in solidification crack sensitivity here! Well - maybe slightly more when using 4643 but only a difference of a few hundredths of a %.

4043 filler+6061-T6 = Approx 0.43% total Mg content found in weld of single bevel or vee groove joint.
4643 filler+6061-T6 = Approx 0.46 to 0.58% total Mg content found in weld of single bevel or vee groove.
Note: There is a slight, marginal difference in solidification crack sensitivity where one would consider between the use of 4043 and 4643 filler.

So this data would suggest that 4643 is slightly more sensitive to solidification cracking when compared to 4043... However, since 4643 is a heat treatable alloy and 4043 is NOT! Then I believe that is the primary reason why 4643 was chosen as opposed to 4043 when considering the use of solution heat treatment that would be applied post weld in order to regain a majority of the tensile strength lost in the adjacent base metal due to welding.

Now we are left with the questions as to what would be the recommended temperature and time for post weld solution heat treatment and artificial aging to bring back up 90% of the tensile strength of the unwelded base metal because as we should know, after welding of 6061-T6 - the surrounding base metal has lost quite a bit of it's original tensile strength that it had prior to welding.

So when we read this:  http://www.alcotec.com/qanda1.htm
We get a better understanding of what we're actually working with as far as the base metal is concerned.
We also understand why one would want to apply post weld solution heat treatment and artificial aging to the component in order to regain as much of the lost tensile strength due to welding as possible without the potential of overaging the component resulting in a useless component. By the way, this is AlvoTech's explanation for PWHT when welding 6061 T-6 Al: "Post Weld Heat Treatment: Typically, the common heat treatable base alloys, such as 6061-T6, lose a substantial proportion of their mechanical strength after welding. Alloy 6061-T6 has typically 45,000 PSI tensile strength prior to welding and typically 27,000 PSI in the as-welded condition. Consequently, on occasion it is desirable to perform post weld heat treatment to return the mechanical strength to the manufactured component. If post weld heat treatment is the option, it is necessary to evaluate the filler alloy used with regards to its ability to respond to the heat treatment. Most of the commonly used filler alloys will not respond to post weld heat treatment without substantial dilution with the heat treatable base alloy. This is not always easy to achieve and can be difficult to control consistently. For this reason, there are some special filler alloys which have been developed to provide a heat treatable filler alloy which guarantees that the weld will respond to the heat treatment. Filler alloy 4643 was developed for welding the 6xxx series base alloys and developing high mechanical properties in the post weld heat-treated condition. This filler alloy was developed by taking the well-known alloy 4043 and reducing the silicon and adding .10 to .30 % magnesium. This chemistry introduces >Mg2Si< into the weld metal and provides a weld that will respond to heat treatment."
So you were on the right track Rebekah!

I would agree with Stephan's suggestions for post weld heat treatment and artificial aging. I would also suggest to read Eutectic's response in the "Shop Talk" section of the forum in which he gets into more metallurgical detail than myself in explaining what happens when one applies post weld heat treatment to 6061 T-6. Concerns of overaging the component is explained in better detail in the other thread as well.

I would also observe that Rebekah was slightly conservative in her temperature and time which should be okay considering the presumption that the least amount of heat input possible was used during the welding of the component, and that the proper steps were taken to maintain the minimal amount of heat input allowable while still resulting in an acceptable weldment.

I do'nt know if it's true with the 5082 Al filler Stephan but here in the US, it can be difficult or should I say, less cost effective to procure an alloy that is more commonly found in EN designations hence, European Union nations such as Germany. Also ASME and some other codes do'nt always recognize certain alloy designations... I found that out when I first started to work with 316Ti alloy which is not commonly sold here in the US. However in Germany, the use of 316Ti is widespread and especially in high heat applications, the appropriate filler metals are also more readily available.. At least this has been my experience.

Good luck with your project there Rebekah, and just think of the Andes Mountains and all their astonishing beauty when things get rough... Hey - it works for me!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-24-2007 17:47 Edited 03-26-2007 22:36
Henry,

once again your answer is a true "delicacy", I suppose not only for me but certainly for everybody!

These detailed information have been new for me in a wide range. Also the link(s) to alcotec are fantastic. I have immediately listed it under my "favourites".

Well, and what I could personally recognize in coherence with rebekah's high-grade topic: I have not been up to date concerning the evolution of aluminum-filler-metals. Meanwhile I have also tried to find out the newest European or ISO-Version of Aluminum-filler-metal standards which I could fortunately find, and which is the DIN EN ISO 18273. Also there the alloy 4643 is being listed and once again, this consumable was, by now, unknown for me (Mea culpa). 

Once upon a time I have learned to use non temperable Magnesium-, Magnesium + Manganese-, or Magnesium + Manganese + Zirconium-, or Silicon containing aluminum filler alloys for welding temperable Aluminum base materials, just like 6xxx-alloys. One of the main reasons - they taught me - was the occurrence of increased hot cracking when different and critical ratios of Magnesium and Silicon could be observed by incalculable amounts of dilution. Thus, also the usage of the filler I have mentioned for welding the high-dynamical loaded components for a German High-Speed-Rail-Train has been decided under the aspects of having sufficient mechanical properties of the entire construction after welding. However, what I have also to mention is, that these components have not been post-weld-heat-treated but only been preheated before welding in accordance to the very stringent standards of the "Deutsche Bundesbahn" (German Federal Railways).

Thanks also Henry, for your kind hints with regard to the specific distinctions in choosing consumables in the United States of America and the European Community Countries.

I recognize once again, there are - of course - differences being important and thus have to be considered!

By the initiation of rebekah's topic and in particular your explanations (in "Technical") and EUTECTICS recommendations (in "Shop Talk") I have got to know a good opportunity in perhaps future applications, where one has to decide what kind of filler metal should be used when welding temperable Aluminum alloys, having the necessity to be post-weld-heat-treated.

However, what has confused me a bit was that the 4643-alloy is listed under the 4xxx-alloys which were - as far as I thought by now - non temperable alloys. I would rather have thought it should be listed under the 6xxx-alloys which are standardized as Mg + Si containing and thus temperable alloys. Nonetheless, this is what makes life so miraculous, surprises without ever ending!

Your calculations (as far as I understood them correctly) could show furthermore, that by using the 4643-alloy one can reach similar mechanical properties of the joint compared to the base-material by PWHT and however avoiding a strongly increase of the hot cracking susceptibility - at least in case of using the combination of 6061 base- and 4643 filler-material.

I guess by having such a great feedback rebekah can certainly do what has to be done.

My best regards to you and my best wishes and good luck to rebekah,
Stephan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-25-2007 10:15
Hi Stephan!

thanks for your kind words but, the real credit goes to the folks that make the knowledge, data, information available for anyone that has the background, understanding, tenacity/Passion and persistance to figure this stuff out... Ohh BTW, also is'nt afraid to ask for help when not able to understand certain terminology and nomenclature especially when encountered with a situation whereby sometimes one is'nt always current and up to date with respect to certain topics or specialities. You have to love challenges!!!

So I read that you were involved with the "Maglev" from Germany?
Interesting stuff to say the least!!!

Before the Iraq war started, there was great interest in developing and implementing the construction and operation of a high speed Maglev around my "neck of the woods" if you would pardon the phrase, specifically South Western Pennsylvania, USA - "The Pennsylvania High Speed Maglev Project"...

We are currently "neck & neck" in competition as finalists with Baltimore - Washington D.C. for the ultimate prize of being the first in the US to build and operate a Maglev system which would definitely revolutionize transportation in this region.  http://www.maglevpa.com/index.html
This links you to "Maglev Inc." A Pittsburgh based company.  http://www.maglevinc.com/

Our Local AWS section in Pittsburgh had some excellent meeting that specifically covered Maglev...
"Transrapid International" is the name of the system offered by I believe Siemens in partnership with Thyssen Krupp.

If you have any literature regarding the welding that you were involved with, at the risk of being foward, could you share some of your experiences, observations?

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-26-2007 14:09
Have any of you guys heard of the Aluminum association?  They have books upon books about anyhting you want to know about aluminum.  I just ordered Welding Aluminum: Theory and practice, Fourth Edition, 2002 and it has it all.  They also will put you in touch with Aluminum experts if you have questions about a certain process or need recomendations.  Just though that this might help somebody.  Heck some of you guys might be the ones someone like me would be told to get in touch with.lol
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-26-2007 19:33
Yeppers!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 03-26-2007 22:33
Hello Henry,

I agree with your first sentences, no doubt. But in my opinion you are part of the "folks" you have mentioned, having the persistence, the "sure instinct" and the passion for continuously trying to enable other interested people an insight into tricky matters. Not only by loving the challenge to "disarm" the intricacy of some technical coherences but also by let others "see through your eyes", and thus making them understand the subject. Well, this is my personal point of view...

Henry, unfortunately I have not meant the Transrapid (MAGLEV) "Superspeed" Train when I have spoken about a German High-Speed-Train, but have meant the 2nd and 3rd generation Intercity Europe (ICE) Trains whose maximum speed lays between 280 km/h (~ 174 miles/h) and 330 km/h (~ 205 miles/h), likewise not so slowly as I guess.

Nevertheless, thanks a lot for the great link's. 

But believe me or not, I had really to do with the Transrapid project when I have worked as a welder with Thyssen Steel Construction in the 1980's. We have built the "rails", forming the "Guideway" for the train and which have been used for building the « Emsland » proving ground. I suppose you have heard from the large accident happened last year where - unfortunately - 23 people have been killed.

Second time I had "contact" to the Transrapid project was in September last year where I - in my function at my current employer - have received an inquiry about the mainly used welding process in the manufacturing of the Aluminum Maglev Components. It had to be found out, if the Maglev Aluminum Components were welded by using the LASER-MIG-Hybrid process, which would be - in my personal opinion - a great tool to produce not only high-grade-seam quality but also to achieve high-grade economical benefits. However, what I could find out in the course of my investigations was, that the mainly used process for welding the longitudinal- and transverse seam-sections was not LASER-MIG but pure LASER-Welding.

A very interesting information I could gather at that time came from MITSUBISHI Heavy Industries (MHI). MHI was also working on large Aluminum components for High-Speed-Trains and also MHI used LASER-Welding as the main process for most sophisticated material-joining.

So unfortunately LASER-MIG-Hybrid-Welding was not used and thus I am unable to give you any further information about the Welding of the Aluminum components of the Transrapid. For the case if LASER-MIG would have been used at that time, I am nearly certain I could have given you further information. By the way, you've not been forward..!

So my best wishes to South Western Pennsylvania, USA to "win the race"!

But what do I say. When having people like you in this region, might there ever be a problem to..?

Best regards,
Stephan

P.S. Kix, thanks for the hint. I guess it could not derogate to have an in depth look into this "collection of literature"!

   
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 03-28-2007 16:58
This is for everyone.

Because of time constraints the piece was whisked away to the annodizers before any tests were run on it (besides the PT--which turned out fine, even though I called it a LP test before!).  We arent really set up to check for hardness anyways, and I have no experience in that regard.

The entire first batch cracked because it was placed on a thick metal table while at 900F and shocked the piece unevenly.  I found out about the tonal quality of cracked vs sound pieces though--it is a fun way to check to see which one is good.  One of the batch that cracked didnt have a visual crack but did have the same tone as the ones that obviously cracked so we decided to do the PT and found that it had cracked, just not all the way.

I decided to do the aging process at 350F for 8 hours and then leave the piece in the oven while it cooled.  I never did find specific information for that one.

The joint design became an issue of contention between the head welder and the engineers.  This piece was originally made from 316L and they did not alter the joint design at all--which specified a single bevel V groove on one side and a fillet on the other.  The head welder told them that this wasnt a good design for 6061, but they disregarded her.  She has worked here for 20 years, the engineers have been out of school 5 years--this is a constant problem.  I ran a J groove anyways to the same depth that they had specified, about 50%, because I know that is what should have been required, it is easy to run a ball end tool through AL, and it is easier to weld that way--besides better quality.  Obviously, this is a partial penetration joint.

What do you think about the eventual life span of a piece of 6061 that is welded all the way around in this manner?  The head welder thought that the lack of penetration in the joint design contributed to the cracking of the piece as there was already a "shut" or stress riser in the piece.  I am wondering if I should disregard the engineers drawings and do what makes the better weld or do what they specify after voicing concerns.  Both situations make me uneasy.  What do you think?

Rebekah

(There are 2 more sets to do and the engineers have conceded to having a full penetration joint after I showed them the pieces that cracked broken apart so they could see the obvious lack of penetration.  They are now concerned that the first piece isnt strong enough.  What's a girl to do?)
Parent - By Eutectic (**) Date 03-28-2007 17:56
Hats off to you me'lady,

It would seam that you have your hands full. It is a pity that the engineers did not do their homework. I agree that the design cannot be the same for 316L and 6061.

I would do a room temperature cool, just that if you are on the peak hardness cusp you may overage if you furnace cool, however if you ar estil on the upslope it would not matter or even improve, so it depends on where you are in the aging process or how close you are to the stable form of the presiptate.

The lifespan depend on the service conditions, I know it is a lame answer but that is what it boils down to.
Partial joint sounds a bit suspect, your HAZ properties are already below par after welding and yes it might have improved a bit after the thermal cycle but nonetheless, the compination of a weak HAZ and a stress consentration at a sharp corner, + the possibility of stress cracking due to chemistry, not to be a party pooper it just leaves to many gaps.
I think have a serious discussion with the engineers and find out how much they havve thought this through. Do nto take it upon yourself to change the joint without voucing your concerns, you cant cover against that.

good luck,

Post a couple of pics if you can

cheers

Hanre
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 03-29-2007 06:26
Hey Rebekah!

Beneath the interesting theory behind your topic, it will "just" remain theory.

Forgive me, but I really can not imagine how the part is being designed.

I agree with Eutectic, could you perhaps post a sketch of the joint area?

By the way, although it honors you extremely how strong you are trying to achieve the optimal result for this tricky welding application, and I don't know if you could reply this question, but...

"Where are the responsible welding engineers here for guiding you - as the welder - on the right way to handle the procedure?"

Thanks and all the best,
Stephan
Parent - By JA (**) Date 03-30-2007 12:38
WOW Henry , that was pretty deep , you lost me........
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Heat treating 6061

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