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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / How to get 1/8" penetration on 6G 3"x1/4" pipe using GTAW?
- - By Steven_OHarra (*) Date 03-27-2007 17:38
A CWI says you need 1/8" penetration beyond the root (into the pipe) all the way around a 5G or 6G weld.
Using a 3/32" gap and keyholing all the way around, I get a fully fused root but cannot get this 1/8" penetration.
Gravity... it is always on. I can see how you might (with feed rate) push into the root if using GMAW but with GTAW, you make your puddle and add filler (at the mercy of gravity). Ideas? I can't find a melt-thru or 1/8" penetration beyond the root in the D1.1.
What am I missing? I don't see how it could be done...
How could you "push" filler metal up through the gap welding up from the bottom against gravity?
Moreover, surface tension as the puddle cools would tend to pull the molten puddle in line with the pipe.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 03-27-2007 18:02
Unless there is a job specific requirement your CWI is full of it. It can be done but it isn't a requirement in either D1.1 or any of the ASME codes that I know of. In fact, there is specific language in ASME that accomodates a tolerance for root concavity.
I would ask him to show you where this is a requirement.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 03-27-2007 18:10
What size filler are you using?  I normally instruct my guys to gap equal to, or "slightly" greater than the rod size.  js55 said it right, get your CWI to show you some specific requirement. 

The ASME Codes limit internal convexity... it ain't adding nothing to the strength of the weld, in fact in a piping system, it has even been known to set up turbulence and cause premature failures. 

You might try tip-toeing up to him/her and ask if the "REAL" concern isn't simply that the edges are fused with no suck-back (convexity) or undercutting... even certain of the ASME Codes permit a limited amount of suck back provided that amount is added to cover pass.

All that said, if you are into a corner, try opening root a bit more and pushing a bit more rod....

Good luck, let us know the outcome?
Parent - - By RANDER (***) Date 03-27-2007 18:43 Edited 03-27-2007 19:06
I agree with Js55 and Jon.  Tactfully ask for a reference to the requirement he is quoting.  I have noticed in this business that sometimes  people blindly repeat what they have been told without researching it for themselves.  He may be happy to be corrected in a nice way.  Good Luck

Max internal protrusion in accordance with B31.3 for thickness less than or equal to .250 would be 1/16" (For qual on production welds)
Dont know about D1.1
ASME sec IX requires complete pen and thorough fusion however I didnt see anything limiting internal reinforcement.  If they are bending this would they not remove the reinforcement anyways?
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 03-27-2007 19:17
LMAO!!  Yes, Jon's tip-toeing is certainly a better approach than telling him he's full of it. Never worked for me. It won't work for you.
Parent - - By Steven_OHarra (*) Date 03-27-2007 19:28 Edited 03-27-2007 19:30
Thanks all... I'll talk to him tonight (and bring my D1.1 along). BTW, this is a very down-to-earth (open to discussion) CWI.
An earlier inquiry was about filler.. I am using 1/16" ER70-S2 on the root and 3/32" on the remaining passes.
I have a 3G on sq joint butt weld 18ga and 10ga and 3/8" v-groove (with backing) in steel, Ssteel, alum, and CM in GTAW.
I'm rather hoping <g> to add 6G to that (steel) and if a "go" go back and pick up SSteel, Alum and CM.
I'm not a welder by trade, just a hobbiest that's run amok. Really appreciate your quick and insightful posts. Will keep you advised.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-27-2007 20:52
You may find with 70S-2 an oxide build up with mulitple passes that manifests itself as tiny pepper looking spots when you grind below the surface of your 2nd, 3rd, etc passes. These are oxides of Ti/Zr/Al that are the triple deox of S-2. It generally is not recommended for multiple passes although lots of people, myself included, have used it for tons and tons of 2 pass applications, root and hot. Even with 2 passes you can still see the build up occasionally. With three and four it will become more pronounce.
Having said that, S-2 will lend itself to achieving greater root penetration out of position (overhead) than other classifications due to the viscosity of the puddle(predominantly reduced Si). You can also crowd the puddle a little with a reduced gap and push the root in, or open the gap up and actually feed the wire through the gap so that the metal falls from the ID side, although this requires greater skill.
You can also reduce the angle on your torch and increase your gas flow. All these things together should produce a noticable difference. Though as stated, it isn't necessary, and often even undesirable.
You can also grind your roots very thin, even mechanically pushing them in some with a grinder, and then pushing more with your hot pass.
Parent - By Steven_OHarra (*) Date 03-28-2007 17:11
Thanks, I'll give this a try. I did speak to him last night but he held fast to the 1/8" penetration through the root requirement. Our next class is tomorrow night. I gave him the results of the research I did on it.. hopefully he'll have mulled this over and had a change of mind by then. If not, your (and the next fellow that followed your response) have some good ideas to try. He is the CWI so what he wants has to happen if I am to certify! Will keep you posted and again, my thanks!
Parent - - By ZCat (***) Date 03-28-2007 05:34 Edited 03-28-2007 15:41
you have to feed your rod from the inside of the pipe, let the wire melt down into the backside of the puddle, at least on the bottom, you do. I generally use a 5/32 gap and a 3/32 wire for the root so I can get the wire inside the pipe.

If you weld too hot, it'll flatten out on you.

On bigger pipe go with a slightly larger gap and a 1/8 wire.
Parent - - By Steven_OHarra (*) Date 03-28-2007 17:11
Thanks, I'll give this a try. I really appreciate the tip.
Parent - - By Steven_OHarra (*) Date 05-18-2007 17:05
Update:
Last night my wife and I presented our 2"OD .25"thick v-groove 6G open-root coupons for testing (and passed).
The CWI made no further mention of the previous 1/8" melt-thru reqmt but did a thorough job testing the coupons.
We each did two welds (one GMAW, one GTAW) so had to prep 16 coupons for inspection and bend testing.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts on the penetration reqm't. As it turns out, our welds were well fused (as indicated by bend) and had 100" penetration (w/o melthru) througout the inner circumference. Glad it is behind us... 16 coupons (even bent 4 at a time) is a long time to hold your breath.
Parent - By ZCat (***) Date 05-18-2007 20:01
Congratulations on passing. BTW, those are called straps that you bent. The actual pipes are called the coupons.

Bending straps is a lot of work, first you gotta cut them, then grind 'em smooth, then sometimes you have to hand pump the bender! I'd much rather take an X Ray test anyday.
Parent - By trlblzr302 (**) Date 05-19-2007 14:44
Congradulations...

Dilligent Efforts usually produce good results.....
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / How to get 1/8" penetration on 6G 3"x1/4" pipe using GTAW?

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