Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / in excess of 1,200 degrees.......
- - By bellaru (*) Date 04-02-2007 12:59
how is it different that when welding , temp's reach well beyond the 1,200 mark , yet its wrong to heat up a peice of steel cherry red or more (for example , in order to bend or form it).........? how it it that when welding , you take it to the point of melt down,,,,,,,and yet ,  that portion once cooled is ok....??????
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 04-02-2007 16:21
Heating and cooling rate plus the width of the heated area are the main difference.  Some codes have rules to address hot forming and subsequent heat treatment to restore material properties.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 04-02-2007 23:17
Hello bellaru, there was a previous thread here on the forum that addressed a similar topic. Time at temperature has a lot to do with the effects of heat in welding. You could also include material type and alloy as a variable. Carbon content can also be a reactive component when heating(time at temperature, quench rate, type of quench, etc.) all have an effect when carbon contents are elevated above the percentages normally found in mild steel(A-36), even mild steel will be affected by heat and quench to some degree in certain instances. Additional alloys present in specific grades of steels can be affected by heat of an external type, but not so much an issue, when they are welded PROPERLY, due to the addition of elements in the weld metal to replace those lost or affected by welding heat(this replacement cannot occur when external heating is taking place). Try the search part of the forum to find the thread that this was discussed, there was lots of information on this topic. Hope this makes a bit of sense and can be of help. Regards, aevald
Parent - - By bellaru (*) Date 04-03-2007 02:22
i know , thats what got me thinking...are there alot of additional elements lost for example in "OFW"........?   then how about the other end of the scale in terms of "time at temperature",,,,,,"arc strikes" are but a second , yet they cause all kinds of problems......i just cant see taking a peice of lets say , 60 grade ,,,,,taking it to molted and back and if its done right ,  it still holds up as if it was never touched..........is there some sort of a chart that explains the different time frames.....?...............thank you.....
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 04-03-2007 03:19
Hello again bellaru, if you have an opportunity, you may want to get ahold of some books on metallurgy or do some searches on the internet. It is likely that some of this reading may do a better job of explaining what is happening relative to some of the questions that you have. As far as charts go, I don't believe you will find any one chart to give you the kind of explanation that you are looking for. The subject has too many variables and those change with the different materials, alloys of materials, etc. Different types of welding processes can also have a great effect on results of a like material.
     For example, you mentioned arc strikes and the fact that they only take a moment and yet cause all kinds of problems. In the case of the arc strike, the weld metal is at temperature just long enough to melt the electrode and a small amount of the surface metal, it cools this weld metal so quickly that it can cause it to harden considerbly and also cause a shrinkage stress to be present. Then if a bending stress is induced on the surface of the parent material the material from the arc strike won't stretch at the same rate as the parent material and this causes the tearing that willl show up. This is a very simplified version of what is happening. Regards, aevald
Parent - - By Eutectic (**) Date 04-03-2007 04:18 Edited 04-03-2007 04:24
bellaru,

Composition, microstructure and manufactured condition, are the contributing factors.
This is not something that can be explained in short as there are books covering this for all the different metals and alloys. But if it can be simplified.

Firstly the steel is made at a steel plant, here they do all the "cake baking" adding ingredients, stirring, removing unwanted elements and then finally casting. Therefore it will have a certain composition and grain structure. Grain structure is difficult to explain to someone that has never encountered it. But just imagine that the steel looks like a honeycomb in the inside. Made up of small "grains" which in turn is made up of a crystal structure which in turn is made up by all the ingredients (elements Fe, C, Mn, Si, Al, Mg, Mo, S, P, etc). The size and composition of these "grains are directly responsible or related to the metal's mechanical properties.
Now, anything in life will always return to the lowest energy state, Humans for instance will rather lie down than run the whole day. The same principles is applied to the grain structure, Elements like to bind in a certain way to reduce the their energy state. If you heat up the steel you supply energy which causes elements to interact and rearrange themselves. If you supply enough energy you will break all bonds and connections and thus you get melting and a liquid, but when you cool the steel down from liquid to solid, you are forcing elements to interact in a solid state. Therefore they will try and be at the lowest possible energy state by arranging in a certain manner/orientation/shape in the crystal structure and subsequent grain structure.
Now this is where time comes in. if you supply energy (heat) you are giving elements which want to move around and rearrange time to do so. The result, grain growth and precipitates (at a high enough temperature) which will change the metal mechanical properties accordingly. This will happen for as long as you apply heat, if you apply it for an infinite length of time it will keep on changing until it is satisfied with its energy state at that temperature.
The thing to understand is that different combinations of composition, temperature and time will give different results. But the unit we are interested now is cooling rate.
It is easiest to explain again from the liquid state or molten metal. If you cool the metal fast you will "trap" elements together in a structure/ arrangement/shape that they are not very happy with, they want to move but they cant because there is not enough energy available (heat) this will cause strain or deformation in the microstructure which in turn will increase the hardness.( in carbon steel this structure is likley to be called martensite)
If you cool it slowly all the elements will move around " diffuse" " substitution" until they are as happy as can be for the time that they are allowed to move around. ( structure is either/combination pearlite, bainite, ferrit etc)

That is why welding and heating is different because you apply different amounts of heat for different amounts of time, which will result in different microstructure. Further in welding you are adding alloying elements which make up for the loss in properties which can be a result of the heating cycle. (various elements in the flux or gas are usually responsible for either/and alloying, grain refiners, deoxidation, wetting, covering/slag etc) The metal will never be like it was initially but in manufacturing all you care about is fitness for service and therefore you do mechanical tests etc. and if that passes you are happy.

I hope this helps and do not add to your confusion. If you do aa search look for CCTT diagrams ( continous cooling time temperature) and Phase diagrams. A good one is the Iron Carbon Equilibrium diagram.

goodluck
Parent - By bellaru (*) Date 04-03-2007 07:34
thanks to everyone , i appreciate it
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / in excess of 1,200 degrees.......

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill