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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Weld Penatrant Test
- - By LandM Rad (*) Date 04-26-2007 00:28
What brand or company of weld penatrant should I consider using?  Preferably a visible dye type.  Would it be easy to use?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 01:34
Thats as much a personal preference as much as anything else. I personally prefer the magnaflux brand. However; sherwin isn't a bad penetrant either. Either will do the job, I don't know your specific need, but as a general rule, proper processing is key to reliable results. The linked site is pretty good for some free knowledge and a good starting point.

http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/PenetrantTest/cc_pt_index.htm
Parent - - By LandM Rad (*) Date 04-26-2007 02:27 Edited 04-26-2007 02:31
I would like to use it on mild and stainless steel welds to check for leaks.  Some guide through the classification process would also be appreciated.  Something that is also safe to use, healthwise, non-flammable, and easy to use,
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 03:48
you say it's for checking leaks, I think some clarification is in order here. For leak checking, a better method would be vacuum box leak testing unless your looking for specific weld quality?
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 04-26-2007 18:12
what is it your checking plate, pipe?
Parent - - By LandM Rad (*) Date 04-27-2007 00:39
it is a box shape.  Its actually bent in two 90 degree angles to make a "U" shape- 1/8 to 5/16 inch material, then a plate with machined holes are track welded to the top to complete the "box" shape, then end caps, tubing, necks, nipples, etc. are welded to the boxes, or tanks as we call them.  The problem that we encounter is that we can not vacuum test or pressure test in the shop, thats not done untill the whole radiator is built and the cooling tubes inserted(there are from 4 tubes to 800 tubes depending on model) Any leaks we get will be counted against the welder who welded the joint.  The problem is is that the bosses are now going to fire any welder who has too many leaks.  So I'm trying, as a fellow welder, to help out my brothers by trying a dye test on some of our problem jobs to see if we can catch the leak before it goes next door.
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 04-27-2007 04:57
If you can clamp the assembly to a flat plate (some sort of gasket between) and plug all the holes save one which you use to pressurize the tank to 5 psi or so and then brush the outside with soap solution you will pretty reliably find the leaks.

If you spray the dye on one side and the developer on the other the dye will often bleed through and show a leak.

I have heard but never tried- brush the welded side with diesel fuel and a stain may appear on the other side overnight.
Bill
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 04-27-2007 15:00
i would suggest a water washable visible penetrant. magnaflux or shirwen, both should give equal results. there are usually directions on the can, best to follow all of them
Parent - - By Duke (***) Date 04-28-2007 04:16
I would have concerns with the welds that were found to be "leaky", now you go to repair them and they're full of penetrating oil...
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-29-2007 17:59
It shouldn't be a problem unless you try to weld over the leaks without back gouging and cleaning the area first. Huum?

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By LandM Rad (*) Date 05-04-2007 18:04
Cleaning the joint wouldn't be a problem, I just wanted to know if the penatrant test would work well on the WT joint
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-06-2007 14:51
I've thought about your problem for a couple of days now. It sounds like you are in a welding/fabrication shop and the final inspection is performed at a separate location. Leaks identified by the inspection department are logged and attributed to individual welders. It is then that a witch hunt is initiated and the "bad" welders culled from the herd.

It doesn't sound like a progressive management approach to the problem unless all other avenues have been explored to determine if there is a root cause for the leaks and it has been confirmed that the problem is a welder's skill issue, not a fit-up issue, or selection of the best welding process, filler metal, etc.

You need to use a technique that is fast, environment friendly, and inexpensive to use.

I like the idea of a bubble test if you can apply pressure to each unit and check for leaks using a bubble solution. There is no residue to dispose of. It is fast and the consumables are readily available, easily disposed, and it will require minimal training. One word of caution; limit the air pressure to prevent inadvertent explosive results. You could use a bicycle tire pump to apply the pressure, although it is hard to imagine a welding shop without shop air.

A second choice would be to use a water soluble fluorescent dye that is added to water. The water could be poured into the tank, allow a 15 to 30 minute dwell time to allow the "penetrant" fluid to find it's way through the leakage paths, and a final examination with a black light in an area of subdued lighting (the darker, the better). You can reduce the dwell time by using low pressure air to pressurize the "tank" containing the penetrant fluid. However, if you can apply pressurized air to the tank, I would prefer the bubble test. You would still be handling penetrant materials, but the same penetrant fluid could be recycled several times before it gets so contaminated that it no longer functions properly. I would suggest the penetrant fluid be filtered through some fine mesh screen or simply a large funnel fitted with a disposable milk filter that you can purchase at any farmers supply store. That would take care of any dirt or debris and minimize the cost of performing the test. Still, this method of testing is going to require handling water and the associated mess that can accompany inattentive use of the materials involved. Clean-up would be a simple flushing of the tank with clean water and drying the interior to prevent corrosion.

Penetrant testing is time consuming and there is waste product that has to be disposed. If you use solvent removable dye, you will have paper towel or other wipes to dispose of. If you use water washable penetrant, there will be waste water to dispose of. The time element can approach an hour or so per test if you include preparation, application, dwell time, removal of excess penetrant, and development times. The most costly time constraint will be the final cleaning to remove all the penetrant materials for the welded components. I would not put the penetrant inside the tank due to the difficulty in assuring its complete removal. Liquid penetrants are fluids (oil based) containing concentrated "dye stuffs" (that's the scientific term) that are not easily removed by simple flushing. It gets trapped in all the nooks and crannies often associated with partial penetration groove welds, the roots of fillet welds joints, etc. I've have seen several instances where the test verified the weld soundness, but the parts had to be scrapped due to the inability to remove all the penetrant from the component that was tested. 

Good luck on your project.

Best regards - Al 
Parent - - By LandM Rad (*) Date 05-08-2007 23:07
You are right about our test method.  We have two shops: our weld shop and our shear & brake, assembly, paint, and cooling tube assembly shop.  After we weld up our work, it gets sent over to be first painted, assembled, then submerged in a huge water tank and pressurized to 50psi with a helium;hydrogen mix for 20 minutes.  If a leak is found, a welder is pulled from the shop to grind out the joint (paint and all) and reweld it.  If successful, it will get repainted and continue with assembly.  Peening is not allowed.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-09-2007 01:00
Peening intended to seal a leak by "smearing" the metal over the leak is called "chalking". As far as I know, the term is derived from the shipbuilding industry when they would seal leaking rivets and riveted joints by striking the area with a "blunted" chisel to displace the metal and tighten the joint to stop the leaking.

We have been known to "chalk" porosity so the "clueless" don't see the porosity and don't recognize what was done by the "crafty" welder. The other "trick" is to give the porosity a "spot" of weld by quickly depressing and releasing the trigger of the FCAW or GMAW gun to leave a "dab" of weld covering the porosity. This is where the welding experience comes in handy. Most welders turned inspectors are all too familiar with the "tricks" of the trade. There's nothing more satisfying that pointing out the errors of the ways of the wayward welder. A touch of the grinder usually reveals the dark truth. Curses, foiled again!

It's a practice that is frowned upon by nearly everyone.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-09-2007 10:15
Al is right on about the Caulking...D1.1 structural code defines it as a plastic deformation of the weld by mechanical means to seal or obscure discontinuities. (ref AWS D1.1:2006 5.28)
When I see a weld or a portion of a weld that has been leaned on pretty hard by our air driven chipping hammers, I step in for a closer look and 98.7569% of the time I will find porosity that someone was trying to cover up and blend in, rather than taking the correct approach of grinding/gouging it out and rewelding. I can tell ya if there is a weld that has lots of hammer marks...it screams loudly at me to look at it because something is wrong.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Weld Penatrant Test

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