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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Are There Code Requirements For Welding Inventory?
- - By tom cooper (**) Date 04-26-2007 00:57
I stopped into our rod & electrode supply room today and got mortified at the sight -  open cans of  low hydrogen rod all over the place, cans with labels rusted off, open spools of wire unraveling, other boxes so old from companies we didn't know existed, even mouse nests in the flux locker.   Obviously a lot of $ is going to be wasted when we clean this mess up, BUT the advice I need is how to setup and run a welding supply room. Do Codes (ASME, AWS, Mil Spec) even address inventory control as a requirement? Climate control? Are there shelf life requirements that needs to be tracked? Apparently we haven't been receiving or filing electrode/wire material certs either - should we be doing this?
HELP!! - any Code references and reading material sorely needed.
Thanks again.
Tom
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 01:55
hmm..

D1.1, ASME all sections, about any code weld mil spec. definetly climate control on all of them. I can't think of any code welding that doesn't require traceability on filler materials. (material certs). If you've lost tracebility, I can't see how you can use that filler on a code weld. As for inventory control, I can't think of a code shop that didn't have some shape form or fashion of it in their QA documents. Shelf life requirements would again be part of QA documents, and as noted by manufacture recommendations. (If a specific filler had a specific shelf life listed from company A. and this was exceeded, I doubt it could be used on a code project.)

I suggest digging into ASME II, All the AWS D series and references therein. ASME B31 series, it won't take you long to answer the questions you've just ask. To be honest, given the conditions you've quoted, it sounds like you need to start from scratch.

Regards,
gerald
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 04-26-2007 09:13
yes gerald,  starting from scratch is exactly what we need to do. So when I crawl into the management and confess that we wasted $25,000 (at least) worth of material and by the way we need another $10,000 (at least) for climate control improvements, I have to go in armed with all the right information.   The biggest mystery to me is why were we so ignorant about handling weld rods when we are absolutely anal (can I say that?) about every other aspect of our inspections.  No one inside or outside of our shop has EVER questioned us on traceability of filler and weld rods.
T
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 13:34
Hi Tom,
I feel for ya on this one. Management always seems to look at these situations as wasting money when you start tossing out electrodes, when they should have been properly storing/maintaining the inventory to start with.

With me, I got to hear about how "I" wasted thousands of dollars worth of A325 and A490 high strength TC bolts when I tossed out the seemingly good bolts that didn't have any traceability, and these are the bolts that were bought and shipped directly to the jobsite and were not used, then returned to our shop at the end of the job. Open kegs, some with water still standing in them, other drained of the water by someone punching holes along the bottom of the kegs, some in fairly good shape visibly but lacked any paper backing for the files. The fun never ends and the parties responsible for the wasted dollars (that came off of our bottom line that determines whether or not I get a Christmas bonus or not) goes unidentified and unresponsible for their mess.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-27-2007 19:26
Hey Gerald,

I may be forgetting something or just not up to date. Do filler metals always require heat number traceability ? I remember proper marking in accordance with the manufacturing specificvation being sufficient for code compliance with ASME Sec I, VII and even D1.1..

Again, I may have been incorrect in the past or not up to date. I could not find the requirement for MTR's in the current D1.1. I do understand the need for heat number traceability when required by specific projects. I just am not familar with it being a requirement for welding in accordance with the codes.

The Filler metal specifications indicate a material is "Certified" when the applicable AWS Specification and Classificaation is affixed. Actually obtaining Material certification Documentation for a specific Heat or Lot of filler metal has always been a major pain for me.

Thanks and have a good day,

Gerald
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 04-28-2007 03:48 Edited 04-28-2007 03:51
Your right, it does require proper marking, and maybe my original response was not clear, so I will clarify it now.
Look at it this way.
What does it take for a company to affix that proper marking? After the rod is burned, What documentation
is reviewed. The rod is long gone, how do you document what material was used, and
that it was compatible and right with the base material specified?
I may be wrong here, but for traceability, it's an entire system, not just the welder checking to see if the rod is marked
properly. I can mark a coat hanger wire with legitimate looking markings, but does that make it a documented filler material?
Now maybe I'm wrong, but there is a reason the codes require marking.

In D1.1 for instance:
3.3 Base Metal/Filler Metal
Combinations
Only base metals and filler metals listed in Table 3.1
may be used in prequalified WPSs. (For the qualification
of listed base metals and filler metals, and for base
metals and filler metals not listed in Table 3.1, see
4.1.1.)

This requirement goes to the listed filler materials such as A5.5, but as most know,
it just doesn't end there. Under A5.5 the following references are listed as
Normative.
Excerpt from A5.5
"2. Normative References
2.1 The following standards contain provisions that,
through reference in this text, constitute provisions of
this AWS standard."

This means that A5.5 as is the mirrored versions of this in other standards
do not stand alone, but rather are intend and required to be used with
the normative standards of which the following are included for A5.5

AWS 5.01 filler metal procurement guide
AWS A4.3 standard methods for determination of the diffusible hydrogen content of martensitic, bainitic, and ferritic steel weld metal produced by arc welding
AWS A4.4M standard procedures for determination of moisture content of welding fluxes and welding electrode flux coverings
AWS B4.0/M standard methods for mechanical testing of welds.

There are other relevant direct specs listed, ISO 544 for instance. "welding consumables-technical delivery conditions for welding filler metals, types of product, dimensions, tolerances, markings"

A5.01 is in that same realm, and both indirectly and directly other API Navsea and others are listed. 

Without getting overly anal, that marking isn't just some company painting numbers on a rod, there is a whole host of requirements for that marking to be legitimate and traceable.

As with most things, the devil is in the details.

Under 5.5

3. Classification

a list of requirements are given, one of which is chemical composition of the weld metal and a reference to Table 2.0

Under Table 2.0 is listed as "CHemical Composition Requirements for Weld Metal"

Thats a clear statement that the weld metal should be within the listed requirements.
That leaves the question of how do you assure and document that?

Which kicks you back to documents such as AWS 5.01 and ISO 544 and others as listed in the normative reference section.

Going to AWS 5.01

Underneath 4.1 of 5.01 the following excerpt
"For identification purposes.. each manufacturer assigns a unique designation to each quanity (in reference ot heats, lots, blends, batches, and mixes) This designation usually consist of a series of numbers or letter which will enable the manufacture to determine the date and time of manufacture, the type and source of the raw materials used, and the details of the procedures employed in producing the filler material"

Then comes a key statement
"This designation stays with the filler metal and can be used to identify the material later, in thoses cases in which identification is necessary."

There in is a little more detail as to why the ""MARKINGS" are required.

To summerize, when the markings are required, as most codes specify, then the traceability is by default required, and hence the requirements for traceability in general. (including heat)
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-28-2007 12:20
I could see the situations in which "traceability" would be helpful. But the requirements for manufacture address just that. The user must use filler metals that have met the applicable specification.

Is Material Traceability from end product to filler metals when no documents other than the applicable code are governing?

I understand the system that must be in place for a company to manufacture and sell filler metals in accordance with a specification. I also undersatnd the requirements for the Heat,Lot, batch identification. These are all used by the manufacturer and the end user may find these useful if the need arises. I am just not aware of any situations involving AWS D1.1 or ASME Sec I, VIII, or B31.1/3 in which the code of construction required filler metals to be traceable to the manufacturer.

As you said, once the rod is burned, there is no evidence. All the MTR's and heat numbers in the world will not help if each location in which a specific Heat/Lot/Batch was used. That would be some pretty serious weld mapping .

At some point, the "SYSTEM" must be trusted. A lawyer may very well question a weld without an MTR. I however feel that he would have a difficult time showing fault if a product was built in accordance with a certain specification and that specification indicated that filler metals manufactured in accordance with a certain specification were all that was required. It is my opinion that the end user would not have the burden of proof to show that that manufacturers system was in compliance or that the chemical compositions were in accordance with the filler metal specification.

Obviously in situations in which a product needs to maintain objective quality evidence that allows all componenents to be traceable to their origin, MTR"s and detailed mapping of where those filler metals were used would be needed.

We may both be thinking along two different lines. All I know is GERALD IS RIGHT :). I think some of these ideas we are discussing were addressed in the rest of this thred. I sometimes post before reading the entire thread. This keeps my brain from hurting!

Have a good day.

Gerald
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 04-28-2007 04:00
As a post script, The quality assurance plan of the company in question should address all these matters.
But as listed in the previous post, if an auditor, inspector, AI ect wanted to be anal, or if your sued
for a failure or other mishap (most especially the later) A weld shop can be brought to task on that issue.
If a lawyer ask you as the QA manager "How do you know it was the right material" telling him "well
the rods had the right markings" will be found as patently insufficient as an answer.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 14:51
Do Codes (ASME, AWS, Mil Spec) even address inventory control as a requirement? Specifically inventory control: few codes address this issue and probably not in the manner you are thinking.
Climate control? Yes, but its generally very liberal.
Are there shelf life requirements that needs to be tracked? Not by code.
Apparently we haven't been receiving or filing electrode/wire material certs either - should we be doing this? Yes you should, for future reference sake, but it is not a requirement of many codes, in manner I think you are assuming. The label upon the container is often assumed as the certification. Read Section 5 of AWS A5.18, or any similar section of the filler metal specs.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 04-26-2007 15:40
i believe that awsd1.5 has some inventory control for fcm
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 15:46
hogan,
D1.5 I am completely unfamiliar with.
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 04-26-2007 16:29
Well I'm feeling a little better about things. I spent all morning reading and can positively say there is no mention of traceability of fillers to the end joint in D1.1, D1.2, Section II, or Section IX. Have not looked in D1.5 because never applied to us. Even the Navy requirements are scant on filler traceability except for titanium work or other specific contract requirements.  So I think we have not violated any good practices in regard to traceability.  I think JS55 sort of confirms that for me.

Even though our inventory control doesn't seem to be a Code violation, OBVIOUSLY we need to do better than before. I like John Wright's idea of throwing it back on management because they did not provide a "system" or any oversight (our SOP and QA manual do not specifically address inventory of weld consumables).

One of our guys noticed overhead water pipes going through that space and wondered if there was a way to induce moderate leakage over the weekend........
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 16:42
I think you're on the right track Tom. No code violation, but needing improvement nonetheless. And it really is for your own protection as well. First, you do it right, then if there is a failure, for whatever reason, and your company gets into litigation, having the certs available to verify your company's compliance with code, manual, and WPS will go a long way towards a succesful lawsuit result, and force the attention in another direction.
Quite often the real causes for failure cannot be determined definitively, and therefore any point of breakdown is suspect, and should be. This is what you wish to avoid. Do it right, be able to prove you did it right, and get a good nights sleep.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 17:12
I don't remember any thing in D1.1 specifying that you must maintain traceability on consumables off the top of my head, but the AISC and other organizations do require this type of material identification on all materials used on customer's jobs. But as a structural steel fabricator, I get audited every year by the AISC and filler Certs Of Compliance (wire, gas, rods, storage, rod ovens maintained @ 250F min) are all on their list of things to audit. We also have to address these issues in our Q/A manual which is another document that the AISC audits.

So you may not be totally off the hook, unless you have projects where there is no particular code compliance or traceability issues, and possibly you could redry the electrodes that were stored incorrectly and use them on jobs like these. But then you have to be able to demonstrate that you can keep these segregated from the consumables to be used on code jobs.<----big headache because it may be subjective to the auditor
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 22:18
Hey John!

Just out of curiosity - when you mention maintaining the oven to 250 degrees F min, does the AISC reqire you to record the temps via the use of recorder? I'm not familiar with their auditing requirements.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-27-2007 10:50
No recording necessary that I am aware of, but I used to keep a log of where I checked the ovens each day. I stopped keeping that log several years ago. I would get the clip board out and show the auditor when he would ask about the rod ovens and they never seemed the slightest bit interested in reviewing it, but he would immediately go to each oven and melt a 250F tempil stick on the shelf in each oven.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-27-2007 02:13
While some of this may not be addressed by the specific welding standard you work with, you obvisously see a need for better filler metal control. Now would be a good time to revise your existing quality control manual and if you don't have one, start writing one. It should address the manner in which filler metals are purchased, stored, distributed for use, and how "returned" unused filler metals are to be put back in to storage.

It sounds like you have the proper mind set to get the job done correctly. Good show.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 04-27-2007 12:40
That is it Al, that's what I want to and will do.
Hoping for any reference books or "model" that I can take use for a quick start. Internet aren'r giving me any fruitfull results. Any suggestions?
T
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 04-27-2007 15:11
aisc has always just checked our rod oven temp also
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 04-28-2007 13:06
Tom,

Send me your email address and I'll send you something.
Parent - By tom cooper (**) Date 04-29-2007 00:47
Hello Scott-
I'm at tomc5@netzero.net;
Glad for any assist you can offer.
Thankyou.
TC
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Are There Code Requirements For Welding Inventory?

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