Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / D1.1 vs B2.1
- - By Jim Beckham Date 04-26-2007 16:25
I am trying to qualify my welders with the minimum number of Performance Qualification tests on the widest range of material thicknesses.  My questions include:
1.  There seem to be discrepancies between B2.1 and D1.1 with regard to welder qualification.  It seems that B2.1 (based on its title) should be the defining document, but I don't see it invoked in D1.1.  Can I find all I need for welder qualification in D1.1, and should I just discard B2.1?
2.  Will a 2g v-groove butt joint (prequalified weld B-U2-GF) test qualify the welder for all fillet welds? (If so, where is this spec'd in the code?)
3.  How many tests do I need to do to cover plate thicknesses from 11 ga (.119 inch) to 1"?  Where is this spec'd in the code?
4.  Sometimes I do butt joint welds with differing material thicknesses.  Do I have to do welder qual. tests with differing material thicknesses, or will my 2g B-U2-GF test cover the welder for the differing thicknesses.
5.  Is there a resource (book, software, etc) that simplifies the application of D1.1 and/or B2.1?  (ie, that organizes in a more simple way the info in the tables, table end notes, etc.)
Thanks for your help
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 16:57
1) D1.1 and B2.1 are different animals. Your customer's spec should spell out which code.
2) AWS D1.1:2006 Table 4.10 2G test qualifies for production plate fillets welds in the F and H positions, production pipe welding in the F and H positions(with note h), production box tubing welding positions F and H(with note h).

note h says to see 4.25 and 4.28 for dihedral angle restrictions for plate joints and tubular T,Y, K connections.

3) D1.1 covers 1/8" to unlimited depending on the thickness of the test coupon(1/8" to less than 1" test coupon qualifies for 2T, 1" and over test coupon qualifies from 1/8 to unlimited). AWS D1.3 is a sheet metal code to cover guage materials up to 3/16".
4) see my answer for number 3 and also see Table 4.11 in AWS D1.1:2006.
5) there are software companies out there to help with the record keeping and creating of WPSs, PQRs, and also WPQRs but you still need to know how to properly interpret and apply the codes.(the human interaction factor is still required)
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 17:21
John, old buddy, I hate to disagree with you and hope you don't take it personally but here is an excerpt from a letter I just write a friend this morning on this very topic:

"Specifically, I am looking at paragraph 4.1.1.2, which states:  "WPS Qualification to Other Standards."  The acceptability of qualification to other standards is the Engineer's responsibility, to be exercised based upon the specific structure, or service conditions, or both.  AWS B2.1.XXX-XX Series on Standard Welding Procedure Specifications may, in this manner, be accepted for use in this code.

Further review of AWS D1.1-2004, paragraph 4.1.2.1 last sentence reads:  "Welders or welding operators qualified by standard test to AWS B2.1, Standard for Welding Procedure and Performance Qualification, may, in this manner, be accepted for use in this code."

End quote. 

For those who may not realize it, there has been some direction from Senior Level Membership within AWS to align our AWS Standards in a manner more consistent with the way ASME IX associates with the rest of the ASME Boiler & Pressure Vessel Codes.  It may take some time but I personally think this is a HUGE step in the right direction.  AWS has over 140 Standards, it makes sense that there be a "Primary" Standard for procedure and performance qualification. Just like ASME, I see a day when our quals will be done in accordance with B2.1 but D1.1 may add, delete or modify some specifics but would NOT have each standard listing "standard specific" qualification sections... this really is the way of the future.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 18:30
Jon,
No need to apologize... We deal primarily with D1.1 and although I have B2.1 on my shelf, I admit that it doesn't get much use. We have yet to have a customer's spec call out B2.1. AWS D1.1:2006 4.1.1.2 still reads as it did the 2004, but B2.1 is still a different standard even though D1.1 acknowledges the use of the Standard WPS or qualifications through B2.1 which is then left up to the EOR to decide if it is acceptable to use it or not.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 18:40
That is true, it is always at the Engineer's discretion however, if you read Commentary, it is recommended that the Engineer does accept the "alternate" if available.  Time will change this, I am certain, for the positive.
Parent - By whip (*) Date 04-28-2007 15:58
Jon this is all very interesting to me.  When I get to a job they give me the contract,the scope of work And usually at the same time there are Welders standing in the test booth ready and waiting, someone is calling me on the radio to come look at something.I'm looking at the book and it say that the testing will be done to the D1.1 AND THE IX. AND THE_ _ _ _ _ AND ON AND ON And the production is spelled out the same. Of course you have PIPE and you have PLATE and then you have to look at the one that owns it.And thats why I love my job So I'm not sure what could be done, but any form of combineing would be great.   Whip
Parent - By Jim Beckham Date 04-26-2007 18:44
Thanks to both of you for your quick responses.  It helps to realize that these are two different specs--I thought that B2.1 was related to D1.1.  In my case, D1.1 is spec'd.
John, thanks also for your detailed answers to my questions--that helps me get off "high center".
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 04-28-2007 23:41
Now, please bear with me for this.

B2.1 is the spec which deals with the qualification of procedures and welding operators.  D1.1 is the controlling document for structural steel welds. 

My question is, if the welding operator is qualified to D1.1, let's say for the sake of argument a single side groove with backing 3G on M1 base material, does the test have to be run with B2.1 as the controlling document in order for the qualification to be valid?  Can a WPS be solely dependent upon B2.1?  Or is it just for qualifications?

Here's why I ask.  My company works mostly from D1.1 and D1.2, with a little D1.6 in the mix.  We are developing the ability to work to D17.1 as well, for certain customers.  We use B2.1 as a guide (not a controlling document) for all welding operator tests, and when we start qualifying our procedures for D17.1 we will use 2.1 as a controlling document to run the GBTs.  My predecessor had begun writing WPS using B2.1 as the controlling spec, but it just doesn't seem that the intent was to use it for production work.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-30-2007 00:32
Gentlemen, there is a Passed Vote by TAC (Technical Activities Committee) which mandates all AWS Standards with qualification requirements dupilicating those in B2.1 remove them from their Standards.  The time set for implementation is December 2008.  Whhat this means is much of the "bulk" may lave someof our Codes and Standards and we will operate in a manner which is consistent with other code bodies both domestically and internationally.  Honestly, this is a wonderful thing but may be taken as negative by those resistant to change.  B2.1 will be unto AWS as ASME IX is to ASME.  Best to know these things in advance so we can prepare for them.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / D1.1 vs B2.1

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill