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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.1 Welding thru Paint/ Galv Question
- - By eekpod (****) Date 04-26-2007 21:24 Edited 04-27-2007 10:44
I need some guidance in interpreting D1.1, 5.15 Preperation of Base Metal.

I always work in the shop where it's always bare steel and I make the fitters/ welders remove excess rust and loose mill scale before tacking/ welding.  But I had a question from our in the field inspector.

The union welders are welding a building we are erecting and evidently they didn't/ don't remove the paint before welding. The question was asked to me that "are they required to remove the paint?"  and I said yes due to 5.15 about what it mentions about "other foreign material", and I considered paint a foreign material.

Evidently the SMAW rod they use says that it can be used thru paint (possibly 7022, or 6022 I forgot and didn't write it down). 

So my question is, it's the code D1.1 that says they can't weld thru paint/ galv in this case and not the welding rod manufacturer right?

All of our welding procedures are pre-qualified, they don't mention anything about welding thru paint.  Or I should say we don't have a procedure to weld over painted parts. 
Where does the code requirement stop and the rod manufacturer start?

I'm writing a procedure for D1.3 Sheet steel, and in their, your allowed to weld thru galvanized sheet steel as long as you qualify the procedure.  I don't believe D1.1 will let me weld over paint/galv w/out qualifying a procedure as well.  But if I wrote and qualified a procedure to weld thru paint would it still be in conformance w/ D1.1?
Any thoughts would be welcome. thanks Chris
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 04-26-2007 21:49
you would need to run a pqr to be able to weld over paint in accordance with d1.1
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-26-2007 22:21
I was once an expert witness for a catasphric collapse in which a few welders were killed.  The Engineer had blessed off a weldable primer but in fact somewhere along the line a non-weldable primer of the same brand and "apparently" same chemistry was substituted... which the Engineer also blessed.  There was quite a good settlement for the deceased families...  My point?  Be extremely careful, the Inspector was also caught up in that tragedy...  Dunno what happened on his end but probably had lots of anxiety as a minimum... Welding through paint can be hazardous.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-27-2007 02:14
Amen to that.

Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 04-27-2007 03:04
If one has never been on some steel erection sites in the field in a working capacity, one would be apalled at some the crap that goes on more than just occasionally with respect to the questionable practices involving the field welding of certain connections.

Then there's the disputes that will occur between the contractor or subcontractor and the inspector with respect to correcting the obvious non-conformances to D1.1... Some inspectors who uphold their integrity end up leaving the job and on occasion, the rare few that look the other way end up getting busted eventually. Unfortunately, this type of shoddy workmanship happens all the time... If some of the contractors think that they can get away with it, they'll try to in order to save a buck! The ones that have established themselves with a solid reputation - know better!!!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 04-27-2007 10:43
Thanks guys, for your input.  I asked more to make sure for myself that I gave the correct info. to the field person.

But I'm at work now and I have the code book in front of me.  "5.15 Preperation of Base Metal", when reading thru the entire paragraph, and the commentary section, I find it odd that it doesn't specifically mention paint or Galv, it mentions "other foreign material".

Consider this, as the code is written, if the welding rod manufacturer says it can be used on painted surfaces, then could paint be considered "a foreign material" if they says it's made for that?

What I'm worried about, is the fact it doesn't mention paint/ galv specifically.  If the field foreman/ superintendent read the papragraph, they would say it "doesn't say paint"  then I would have to argue how I feel paint is considered a foreign material, and that's what I have been doing for years, but look at it from the other side. 

From day one, I was always told you don't weld thru paint, you have to remove it were you are going to weld.  But now that I am reading the code word for word.  I find it interesting that the code doesn't specifically mention paint and or galv,  they say "other foreign materia".  You would think that if it were THAT important they would purposly list paint /galv as something you can't weld thru.   Is it possible that as inspectors, we inadvertanly took it to the next level, and included banning welding over paint/ galv when certain filler rod manufacturer's say it's ok?

Henry, I agree w/ your statment, about the stuff that goes on out in the field, I hear the stories all the time and I can't imagine dealing w/ that mentality all day long, everyday.  I'm still sticking w/ the remove paint /galv like I have been, it would make our jobs as inspectors alot easier though if AWS just listed it as such. 

Thanks Chris
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-27-2007 14:07
Chris, you can imagine if the Code tried defining "foriegn material" the list could be pretty extensive.  One needs to use good judgment in these instances where it might be impossible to fully and completely define a restriction.  If a substance can *possibly* contaminate the internals of a weld it must be removed.  Paint and galvanizing both can f*ck a welds internal composition, so both are best removed unless one wishes to suffer the potential consequences, which have proven fatal in some instances....
Parent - By Duke (***) Date 04-28-2007 03:59 Edited 04-28-2007 04:32
If they submit a prequalified WPS, hit em with 3.3, "only base metals and filler metals listed in Table 3.1..."  is that paint in T 3.1? No?  Qualify it.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 03-12-2008 15:50 Edited 03-12-2008 18:09
I just ran across this post and although this may be a dead issue for you now, food for thought in the future. AWS D1.1 index, "paint removal" refers you to 5.15 and 8.5.1 for welding purposes and 6.26.3 for inspection. 6.26.3 does not apply to this issue. My interpretation of the other two is this. Paint is a foriegn material detrimentel to weld quality and AWS does imply this by thier referance in the index as " Paint removal" and above mentioned references to 5.15 and 8.5.1 These two references when read in thier entirety and applied is stated should give one the determination that paint shall be removed two inches in all directions from the weld area. Also food for thought, If you end up with an issue of production wanting to buck this for any reason working under any code, OSHA requires the removal of paint and other foriegn matter a full four inches in all directions from the weld area. Found this out while doing B31.1 and B31.3 inspection. In these two codes an actual increment is not called out, it is worded removal from the weld area, in my opinion the weld groove as well as the HAZ, so rather than argue with them and show them an increment through mathematics figuring HAZ, I pulled thier safety statement that reads "We meet and or exceeed OSHA standards. Four inches gentlemen!
Parent - By DAYANARA (**) Date 03-13-2008 17:13
The weld is very cleaning, no weld above painting, because is cause of hydrogen induced and result in delayed crack.
The weld above painting is dangerous.

DY.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.1 Welding thru Paint/ Galv Question

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