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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Certification question
- - By metalfab24 Date 04-27-2007 17:44
I want to certify in vertical up and overhead positions with dual shield wire.  If I certified with 1 inch unlimited with the dual shield process in both these positions does this also certify me for hard wire in both these positions.  According to AWS do you need to certify with hard wire seperately?  If you have to certify for hard wire seperately do you have to certify for .035 and .045 also seperately? Is each process and electrode size or wire size broke down into seperate certifications?  I have just finished a year in a college welding program and am wanting to certify with the MIG process as much as I can.  Thanks for looking at my question. 
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 04-27-2007 18:19
dual shield (FCAW) and hardwire(GMAW) are two diffrent welding proccesses. you will need to cerify for each seperatly. as far as dia. of wire, you don't need to worry about it for welder qualification, just for welding procedure qual(WPS or WPQR)
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 05-04-2007 12:53
Is the FCAW and the GMAW considered different welding processes in the ASME Sect. IX Code?
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-04-2007 13:09
Bill, ASME IX considers FCAW and GMAW as the same process.  Not so with D1.1 however.
Parent - By Bill M (***) Date 05-04-2007 13:44
Thats what I thought, but don't have a copy of ASME 9 handy
Parent - - By fbrieden (***) Date 05-04-2007 13:53
FCAW and GMAW are listed as having the same essential variables, but they are not the same process.
Parent - By Bill M (***) Date 05-04-2007 14:17
I think that ASME IX defines FCAW as a gas metal arc process.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 05-04-2007 14:18 Edited 05-04-2007 14:20
Okay, let me restate; for the purpose of establishing the essential, nonessential and supplimentary essential variables, FCAW and GMAW are considered to be the same process.
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 05-04-2007 14:31
I certainly agree with you that they have the same variables.

ASME IX QW-492 Definitions says that flux cored arc welding is a GMAW process.

Definition of "welding, flux-cored arc (FCAW)-- a gas metal arc welding process that uses an arc between a continuous filler metal electrode and the weld pool.  The process is used with shielding gas from a flux contained within the tubular electrode, with or without additional shielding from an externally supplied gas, and without the application of pressure."
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-04-2007 14:54
Hello All, I can certainly see where D1.1 seperates FCAW from GMAW, considering that if the parameters of GMAW aren't closely monitored you can end up with someone running the GMAW in the short-arc mode of transfer and end up with cold-lap and other issues. I'm not quite sure why ASME looks at this differently.
     Now for my real question. When you consider FCAW-Shielded and FCAW-Self-Shielded, I tend to think of them as totally different processes(I am looking at this from the stand-point of a welder and not necessarily the metallurgical aspect), although I also believe that the weld deposits from the two are fairly different as well(metallurgically speaking). I am curious to know how others of you view these two processes? I have a hard time understanding why an individual can test with the FCAW-Shielded process and be deemed "certified" to weld with the FCAW-Self-Shielded process as well. Would like to hear some of your comments and views concerning this. Thanks, aevald
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-04-2007 15:10
Allan,

I think your observations about FCAW-S and FCAW-G are valid. I think Section IX is minimalist and just bunches all CV wirefeed processes together.

I think D1 might be moving in another direction and may become even more deliniated.  What about Metal Core?  What about GMAW-P and the many many different ways to run pulsation.  GMAW-P has no prequalified status in D1.1 right now (by virtue of it's CC/CV power), so in effect it may as well be considered a seperate process since every procedure must be qualified by testing.

 
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-04-2007 16:19
Hello Lawrence, very good points also. My main concern with the question in my original post had to do with certifications that allow a welder to test with the FCAW-Shielded process and then be allowed to weld with either the shielded or self-shielded FCAW process. In my opinion, these two wires run in a totally different manner and require a different set of skills to be run proficiently. I suppose an argument could be made that the welder would be weeded out by the welding inspectors or QC people in the shop or on the site, but why would a process be in place that has to work this way?
     I have also seen welders on sites before that have had self-shielded wires on their machines and then have hooked up gas to these units and not realized this was wrong. I believe most people can see where I'm going with this. As most employers will test for a welders capabilities, this may be a moot point, yet it just seems odd that the certification process doesn't differentiate better on this subject. Thank you for your points, Lawrence. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-04-2007 16:44
You are perfectly right...  I think self shielded large dia FCAW takes a bit more attention to parameters and skill to run, especially out of position. It is very different from gas shielded FCAW.

I think some are conserned that too many layers of qualification/testing/record keeping become a negative to the bottom line.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-04-2007 17:52
Lawrence, your last statement carries a lot of credence. As an examiner at a testing agency, I get a little grumpy sometimes because I will have a welding inspector wondering why I issued a certification for a particular individual. Then they realize that the person in question tested with the FCAW-Shielded process and they are inspecting welds that have been performed with the FCAW-Self-Shielded process, which their card allows them to do. You may experience this scenario too and I imagine might have similar frustrations. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 05-04-2007 18:00
Also,
ASME has "Transfer Mode" as an essential varriable for welder qualification directed at short circuit transfer.  If you qualify with short circuit....you have to re-qualify to weld with flux core.  If you qualify with flux core, you need to requalify to weld with GMAW short circuit.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-05-2007 03:35 Edited 05-05-2007 03:38
I am only repeating what other respondents have said before in this forum, so none of this is new. What is sometimes overlooked is that the "code" requirements are the minimum requirements that must be met. This is a basic premise applicable to design, materials, fabrication, or inspection.

As a manufacturer, the minimum code requirements must be met or exceeded to meet customer expectations. If the manufacturer is uncomfortable with meeting the bare bones minimum requirement, then it is their responsibility do what is necessary to "sleep comfortably" at night. The lawyers only come out of the shadows when something goes boom in the night and people are hurt or contract requirements are not met.

The question about ASME and FCAW versus GMAW comes up every couple of months. Compare the two processes from an equipment prospective. They both use the same power supply, they both use the same wire feed mechanism, and in some cases, they use the same shielding gases. The major difference is the electrode, and it is the electrode type (solid versus cored or tubular) that ASME Section IX uses to differentiate the two processes.

What welding variables are key to setting up the welding process? Arc voltage, wire feed speed, and electrode extension are the three welding parameters that have to be controlled. Amperage is the most useless bit of information available to the welder and probably causes the most harm in trying to set up GMAW or FCAW system, but it is listed on every WPS.

Every beginning welder (me included) learned to control the arc length and set the amperage. In the case of semiautomatic welding, it is common to see two welders working together trying to set the welding parameters. The one welder welds and shouts commands to his partner to up the voltage, turn down the amperage, no, no down on the volts, up on the amperage, and so on until the welder is satisfied. The connection between wire feed speed and electrode extension is missed because no one takes the time to properly instruct the welder. The three variables that are constant, once set, are arc voltage, wire feed speed, and electrode extension. If the WPS would simply list those three parameters (within narrow useable ranges) the ordeal of setting up the process would be painless and there would be consistency between the welding stations. 

I mean no disrespect to the gentlemen that sit on the ASME Section IX committees, but I can only imagine a limited few of them have ever welded for a living. They pare the requirements down to minimize the cost and impact of qualifying welding procedures and welders so as to minimize the wailing of the manufacture's bean counters while still keeping public safety in mind. There are bound to be differences in opinion between "non-welders" and welders as to what is important to control the process and maintaining product integrity.

It is up to the manufacturers, either through their engineering or quality control departments, to recognize that simply meeting the code requirements may not be sufficient to properly control their welding operations. It is very easy to write a WPS that meets ASME requirements that are totally useless. In my humble opinion, the same problem exists with the AWS published SWPSs that can be purchased for a price.

There is a tremendous amount of information to be "learned" by going through the mechanics of qualifying a welding procedure and finding out what works and what doesn't work. Those lessons are never learned if the manufacturer simply buys the "canned" WPS. It's like learning to ride a bicycle. You can read the book several times, but until you actually get on the bike and experience a fall or two, you will never learn to ride. Can you imagine yourself learning to ride for the first time, pedaling furiously while dear old Mom or Dad, running beside you, leafing through the pages of "How to Ride A Bicycle for Dummies" trys to give you direction on how to ride without crashing into the neighbor's house. That's what happens everyday in welding industry. I, for one, am thankful. It keeps me busy and it keeps food on my family's table. :(

The lesson of the day is that if you think you need more control or tighter controls over your operations, then by all means do so. The posting in the forum a few days ago about the code requirements for filler metal storage is a great example. "Does the code list requirements for filler metal storage?"

"No, but since you had to ask the question, there must be a need to address it in your facility."

"Do you have to qualify welders on both carbon steel and stainless steel when meeting the requirements of ASME?"

"The short answer is no, but if you believe the differences in skills needed to weld the two base metals are significant, then by all means, test the welders on both carbon steel and stainless steel."

"Do I have to qualify my welders for GMAW and FCAW separately to meet ASME Section IX?"

"The short answer is no, but if you believe the differences between the two welding processes are significant, then by all means, test the welders on both GMAW and FCAW."

You are the person that has to be able to sleep peacefully at night. When one of your vessels goes boom in the middle of the night, your company (and possibly you) will be the entity to answer to the lawyers. 

Enough of "Al's Rant of the Day".

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 05-07-2007 15:06
A couple of comments on this discussion If I may.
The ASME Section IX process (and many ASME and AWS committee's as well) for variable revision and establishment usually begins with a 'working group' that studies and asseses the history of a given situation with an eye towards failures.
It can be argued, and certainly has been argued, many times in committee for more robust requirements consistent with comments in this thread. So, quite often, in order for there to be a jsutification for more rubust requiremetns there needs to be som ehistory that forces urgency. If there is none, pure welding logic sometimes has a difficult time carrying the day.
My other point is this, that I think ASME does a better job of segregating those things that pertain to procedure qual and those things that pertain to performance qual than AWS does. I think this is generated by AWS's earlier move to prequal thinking. So when we are talking about qualifications and those things that are important variables in a context of ASME and AWS we should keep this in mind.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 05-08-2007 01:59
Hello guys,
Would like to add a few comments from an outsiders (non-US) perspective.
Both codes, AWS D1.1 and ASME IX are excellent working documents but they both contain flaws (depending on ones opinion) and loopholes.
However in order to counter for every possible scenario the codes would have to be twice or three times their current size.
As we are all well aware codes are generally guidelines and sound engineering practice should always take precedence.
As Allan has mentioned if you are worried about sleeping at night then do extra tests to satisfy your peace of mind.The code only stipulates a minimum, it is your prerogative to do whatever tests make you confident.
A few examples,
1  A loophole in ASME IX has always been to substitute c/s for s/s pipe and weld with s/s filler metal. This qualifies for welding P1 through P8 but as an ex welder I feel there are definite differences when welding c/s, s/s and chromolly. Some employers will make you test on each material individually and while some would say it is a waste of time and money it is their prerogative.
2  The same with ASME IX GMAW / FCAW, one qualifies the other but if you don't think it is sufficient then perform separate tests. It is your prerogative.
3  AWS D1.1 allows you to write up a pre-qualified WPS and then start welding without further testing. AS/NZS 1554 (Australia/New Zealand Structural Welding) requires a macro as a minimum for pre-qualified procedures. If I have to do an AWS D1.1 pre-qualifed WPS I will perform a macro. It is not required but it helps my peace of mind.
4  AWS D1.1 has a Welder Qualification for Unlimited Thickness using 1" plate and a backing bar. I felt that this did not accurately represented the work we were doing (gouging and rewelding cracks) so I incorporated gouging into my weld tests. The finished surface on the repaired cracks had to be perfectly smooth so I incorporated grinding/sanding into the test.
5  I have done 6G pipe weld tests with the coupon 1' off the floor, you won't find that in any welding code. It is an employer using their prerogative to ensure they are confident with the welders abilities.

As I have mentioned previously the code only gives a minimum requirement. It is up to us to use our experience and judgement to enhance the codes. As long as a welder knows everything that is required of him before starting the test there is nothing wrong with making the tests a bit harder if it will give you a better standard of welder and you will ultimately sleep better at night.
Shanes rant over,
Best regards,
Shane
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-08-2007 14:15
Shane,
Whereas I do not oppose your idea of macros or any other additional testing, since I do additional testing beyond the codes myself, I would like to emphasize my point within the context you posted. And this in my opinion is really the crux of the difference between D1.1 and Section IX.
The prequalified procedures if perfomed within the parameters established by code have been proven for decades to be successful. Thats why, it is argued, they are allowed to be pre quals. Therefore "if run properly" it is expected they be successful. And, "if run properly " means the welder variable. So, when you  are macro testing your prequal procedures, you are actually testing your welders ability, and not the procedure itself. This may sound obvious to many, but it lies at the heart of the difference between AWS prequal thinking, (not completely unjustifiable if I may add-though it tends to cause messy thinking with welding engineers who, at least in the beginning, may confuse issues of weld viability and issues of performance ability), and traditional ASME pure qualification thinking.
I would also add that in my opinion I think neither of these are perfect (and don't believe they can be), though I prefer the Section IX approach (which may just be a result of my perdominant piping background). Section IX is where I cut my teeth.

PS:
If these docs addressed all the issues people think they should, they would be at least 50 times their current size. This industry is enormous. This counterbalance is NEVER lost on the committee members.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Certification question

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