i am a welder,,,,worked in a few shops but , mostly construction , structural steel,,,,,,,and i just don't understand the problem with the multi-pass fillets,,,,,,,,i'm aware of what your saying about the "root" but , that would mostly occur during the "first" pass , like any other size first pass fillet welds , i'm sure many other welders will agree that tying the next 2 passes into the first pass is even easier than the first,,,,and the root isn't as deep as it would be in the first pass.........
i've welded many large size fillet welds using 1/8th inch electrodes,,,,,welds built up to 1 inch or more,,,,,,,joining really heavy sections,,,and yes , i've cut many also,,,,in a mock-up,,,,,,,,but the incomplete fusion i've noticed is always if any , in the root of the first pass ,,,,,,,,,everything after that is clean and sound......everything after the first pass is easy , its just tying one weld into the next......????
1" and bigger fillets with 1/8" lo/hy, I'd like to have seen those! Sounds like a career project. Why anyone would put in a weld of that size with 1/8 is beyond me, but, I wasn't there to see the circumstances. That's just my attempt at some sort of sarcasim. The point being, there are a lot of things that you may or may not be doing correctly. For instance, you could put a real sweet looking single pass 5/16 fillet using 5/32, but chances are, if you bent it over, you'd probably bust out. And, depending on which position and process you were welding in would make a great deal of difference. Weld thickness and depth ratios, root pass thickness, maimum electrode and wire diameters all come into to play. These are the things that you, as the welder, may not have a full grasp of. Let me ask you this, just how well do you know your craft? I'm just interested in a little background. Did you teach your self to weld? Attend a school or VoTec? And through any of this process, was there any book learning, for lack of a better phrase, to help guide you thru what is actually happening across that arc?
well , its like this , i've been a certified welder for 28 years , i'm L.A. city in D1.1 , D1.2 , D1.3 , D1.4 , and D1.5 , i,m no rookie thats for sure.....i didn't teach myself how to weld in my garage , i went to school.........the 1 inch fillets , like you said , it was the circumstances,,,,,,,,,,never the less , it happends,,,,,,why would anybody use that "small" of an electrode.....? how about , thats all there was at the time.......why do you say that a sweet looking 5/16" single pass fillet will probably break out.....? due to what reason,,,,,,please don't get me wrong , i'm only here to learn.......
i have my ICC/SS/welding special inspection card , (not that i've ever used it) ,and my CWI is next....... but the code says.........
1-complete and partial penetration groove welds......
2-multi pass fillet welds...
3-single pass fillet welds >5/16"........all shall be continuously inspected..........
i want to know why a single pass fillet >5/16" needs to be watched like that,,,,,,,,,especially in the flat position..........
I don't think I can answer that one. It could be that work requiring 5/16 and smaller fillets may be considered work of a somewhat minor nature(by them) and would only need a visual upon completion, I just don't know. IBC doesn,t tell you what to look for under their guidelines, they're rather ambiguous to the whole thing. And other than the little test they give you for their certification, you don't need to know very much. AWS QC-1 only addresses the issue as it pertains to their CWI's in regards to weld inspections, and until recently, as far as they were concerned, you needed to be a CWI to do weld inspection. Not so the case any longer. So, what would a person meeting the minimum requirements of the IBC know to look for? That's not directed at you, but the situation in general. My guess would have to be fitup and weld sequenceing along with a few other things.
My comment about the fillet weld bust out was due in large to the rod diameter and weld size ratio. A single pass 5/16 fillet with 5/32 lo/hy doesn't leave much time to work the root. Your (figuritive) spending too much time blending the toes to get the root burnt in, of coarse, that's just my opinion. A good solid root with a tight two bead cap or a slight weave to fill the toes. No way it could fail. Where did the "especially in the flat position" part come from?
why especally the flat position,,,,,its just the easiest of all the welding positions........
you know what i've noticed here in this fourm , that it seems that the CWI's have somewhat of a disliking toward these ICBO/ICC inspectors......you know , they both have there points.......sure , as far as the science behind welding goes,,,,you can't beat the AWS/CWI cert,,,, its far more in depth than anything else,,,,but it has nothing in there about re-bar , sheet steel , bolting and so on......its not like these points are "not" important.......ya , your right , that "little" test was a peice of cake , and not because its easy , because i studied for it,,,,,just like my CWI exam comming up,,,,i'll pass that too........if i wanted to know how much pretention you need for a ASTM A490 1-1/2" x 6" high strength bolt,,,,,i wouldn't ask a CWI........you know something , i'v seen alot of CWI's that have never burned a rod in there life , and i have my own opinion about that ........L.A. city also has there own structural steel/welding deputy instector , and its by no means easy , they wont even let you in the door without your ICC/SS/welding cert.......as far as any other type of inspection in the building trades , other than welding,,,(concrete , masonry , plumbing , ect,,,,)...its all ICBO/ICC....i guess there all just a bunch of bullsh*t little tests that require little or no brains , right........
thanks for your help.......
Christ, settle down! Your taking everthing out of context. I've got one of those damn cards to! There was nothing in what I was saying that should have been taken personel. I seemed to have offended your sensibilities somehow and I apologize for that. I kind of thought we were just having an open discussion.
well , you've misread me also,,,,, i'm not taking "anything" personal , and i'm offended in no way what so ever,,,,,,i accept your apology , and hopefully you'll accept mine..........
now , back to the original question.............? you even said so yourself , if all the welding parameters are followed correctly ,and the technique needed for that type of weld is correct , there shouldn't be a problem,,,,,,well , that goes for "any" size weld,,,,,,,,i don't think too many special inspectors really know what there looking for other than the fact that "everything seems to be looking good.....? , and that he or she is supposed to be there while its all going down because thats what the've been told........(not to offend any of you inspectors),,,,,,,,,,,,there not telling us about any potential flaws that might occur during all this,,,,,ita all a matter of opinion per each inspector..........where's the research.....?
Can't tell you where the research is, cuz I don't know. I'm not poking at what special inspectors do because thats what pays my mortgage. I can say, that according to the engineers (structural), that I have talked to on this matter, is that the stress factors from the larger weld sizes that are applied to the base metals warrent process verification, and that the smaller, single pass fillets such as 1/4 and 5/16, do whatever they do. I've been a structural welder for ove 30 years and an inspector for 7, and I still couldn't tell you why. As for the statement about the number of special inspectors that don't really have firm grasp on the subject, I couldn't dissagree more. Everyone that I know that is a special inspector, be it structural steel and welding, concrete, reinforced concrete are some of the sharpest and knowledgable people I know. They have to be. It's their signature on the bottom line. And, if your wanting someone to tell you where your (weld) flaws are, come on up here, I've got no problem with it. No offence implied, I hope none was taken. End of rant!
And thanks for writting back.
well , i agree with you also , all the inspectors i've ever come in contact with have with out a doubt been "very sharp and knowledgable" people,,,,,and i admire them,,,but on "this" paticular subject..........well , its just "you" and "ChGuilford" so far.........
once again , thank you.....
JA, This is just curiosity, but, where in LA are you? I grew up in Westchester and finally left in '70.
i grew up in Venice Beach , spent most of the summers in Pennsylvania up till about the age of 15,,,,,,,,since then , i've lived in the San Fernando valley , Long Beach , simi valley,,,,just all around the Loa Angeles area......everywhere but downtown (thank god)......right now i'm working in Camarillo , a little ways south of Ventura.....i'm up in the mountains overlooking the ocean , i can see the Channel Islands , and the oil rigs off shore near Santa Barbara.....really nice , it kinda makes up for the not so nice ones.........
I was thinking along the lines of degree of difficulty in getting proper fusion, in my first post, but you bring out some good points that make me think a little differently. I'm going to hazard a guess on this - it sounds like the requirement for continuous inspection on larger fillets, PJP, CJP grooves is because some unscrupulous people have "slugged" such welds in the past. Yes, a check with UT will prevent that, but not every weld is going to be UT'd or can be UT'd. If an inspector is keeping a close eye on it, it will be difficult to slug the weld. By making that a requirement, no one is singled out.
you know , i spent about an hour running a few 3/8th" single pass fillets in a few different positions , and cut them all , everything looked ok in that sense , but the bottom line is this..........it just takes more skill as a welder to preform these size welds,,,,,,,your right about having to spend more time keeping everything running smooth (root , toes , ect..) thus , being more prone to creating a flaw......making sure that all the welding parameters are within the specs,,,its just all up to the welder from there on out........and your right , you'll be able to judge the welders skill in all this in about 5 seconds.........remember what you said..........these type welds can become a disaster in the hands of the wrong person.......thats for sure.....
oh , and one other thing , using SMAW , if the magnetnetic field around your rod isn't in your favor with these type welds..................
your screwed.........
"There's a lot of General contractors that have no real QC program to speak of, and, no offence to John, a whole bunch of fabricators with even less,...." Quote
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