PQR/WPS using E316LT-1 WPQ for E308LT-1

Date 05-09-2007 20:01

shmaley,
You will need to write up a new WPS to reflect the change in parent metal and filler metal but you will not need to requalify your PQR.
Hope that helps,
Regards,
Shane

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 05-09-2007 20:53

Wouldn't be a problem as far as ASME IX goes, wouldn't even need to write a new WPS, just revise. Personally, whenever I write a WPS for stainless, I write the variables as ER3XX-XX, works just fine.

By shmaley (*)

Date 05-09-2007 22:13

Thanks to you both for the advice. I like using the E3XXXX-X as the filler choice. As long as it's the same process FCAW/GMAW, SMAW, SAW, etc... I'll be leaving it open. Nice. Now for the revisions! Thanks.

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 05-10-2007 00:43

Hello Jon,
It is a funny one this one.
On one hand if you had a WPS for every material you use you would have a huge pile of WPSs.
On the other hand, the real reason for a WPS is to provide guidelines for the welder and how many welders know that a procedure qualified on one 300 series s/s can be used for other 300 series steels.
If you are welding 316 material the welder needs to know he is to use ER316 filler, 304 = ER308, 321 = ER347 etc,etc.
I think we have to find a happy medium between giving the welder as much information as possible and not creating mountains of paperwork,
Regards,
Shane

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 05-10-2007 09:31

Shane, if we're honest, many welders never reference a WPS, they take direction from their supervision or are somehow assigned which filler materials to use. Many organisations provide job specific work instructions also. Let's face it, if we had to be so specific as to have a special WPS to cover each individual jobs alloys etc., we might as well provide detailed instructions, i.e., work traveler or similar. While I agree, the purpose of a WPS is to provide guidance to the welder it is often a poorly used tool.

By js55

Date 05-10-2007 13:37

I thought this could bear repeating. For no truer words have been spoken.
"if we're honest, many welders never reference a WPS."

As I feel that a WPS is absolutely essential (stating this before some get their panties all in a wad), I have never been decided on exactly how. Welders are creatures of habit, creatures of the puddle, creatures of bead appearance, and arc stability. To put so much emphasis on the WPS, as if it were the Bible, as if welding just cannot happen without it, as so many engineering and auditing types seem to, seems to me to really put the cart before the horse to a certain extent. In my years in a fab shop welding I welded thousands of welds, literally thousands, and tens of thousends of diameter inches of pipe, maintaining around a 1% reject rate(with either 10% or 100% RT on everything), and never once looked at a WPS.
In a way, a WPS can be looked at as a reminder to experienced welders and a reference for inexperienced welders. What I mean by this is that a stable arc, a smooth puddle, good fusion and penetration as dictated by the welder in the PQR process is actually what determins a good weld. Not a piece of paper. The PQR is a record of that qual, and the WPS acts as instruction/reminder with broadened parameters. But we still shouldn't forget that it was an actual weld with an actual welder that gererated those parameters in the first place.
If you take a good welder and mess up his machine and then turn him loose on it, in seconds it will be back to where it should be. And this is where your WPS should be written.
I'm not saying that welders not looking at WPs's is good practice. I'm just arguing for a little perspective. The WPS doesn't make welding possible, it verifies and facilitates its consistency and communication.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 05-10-2007 16:56

Yep, and I couldn't agree more. Also on the same page with not wanting people to get their knickers in a knot... I feel a WPS is also mandatory, but perhaps not so much of a tool for the welder but rather the inspector and / or customer. I know there will be many who argue the WPS HAS to be used by the welder but, in my professional experience and also having many years under the hood... welders care about putting down good welds... and most will do whatever it takes to do so, even if it goes contrary to the written word. Chicken or egg? I dunno, not trying to defend my statements but am pleased to see one with so much experience as js55 understands where I'm coming from....

By js55

Date 05-10-2007 17:15

Jon,
In all the fab shops I've worked in (and I don't have enough fingers to count em)the welders for the most part couldn't care less about the WPS's. There are welcome exceptions, of course. That doesn't mean they didn't care about the weld parameters, compliance, or weld quality. Most welders in my experience are very conscientious and prideful about their work,and want to do it right. But as you say, it was always up to the supervisors and the QC personnel to make them aware of what compliance is and to enforce that compliance.
I believe this is predominantly the real world.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 05-10-2007 17:27

"I believe this is predominantly the real world."

My turn to say "truer words were never spoken." ;-)

WPS' are handy reference tools, but are only rarely studied with the intensity with which they deserve (or expected)....

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-10-2007 18:15

All of my welders have a welding manual with every WPS and all the info they need to do their jobs. This was one of my first projects when I accepted the QC role. It was a huge undertaking, but has proven to be a great asset to my guys. When they pass their welding tests, I go over every page of this manual with them and make sure they understand how to use it. Audits are a breeze when the auditor visits the shop, they ask a welder a question and out comes that book, the welder turns to the index and points the auditor to the answer to the question he was just asked. This might not be an appropriate way of doing things in the field, because the welder may be on the building while his manual is in the truck, but it works pretty good in a shop enviroment.

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 05-10-2007 18:22

I do the same in my shop John but it isn't exactly what I'd call "real world" and I am not, definately not promoting the idea that WPS' shouldn't be used, only saying what has proven common in my experience.

By js55

Date 05-10-2007 19:19

Our shop is similar. The WPS's ARE available, and readily accessible. Everyone knows where they are (close to all of them). The welders are trained and indoctrinated as to how to read them, what they contain, and what they mean.
Its just that I can't remember the last time I actually witnessed a welder referencing a WPS unless required to do so by audit or our QC department.
I keep a feather duster on a hook nearby.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-10-2007 19:54

feather duster....LOL, I hear what you're saying

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 05-11-2007 03:50

From a much different but still real world: I worked in metal stamping shops where a most of the tooling and equiptment was built and repaired in house. None of this stuff was built to a code, and You couldn't have gotten a WPS if You wanted one. The idea was that IF YOU WERE A WELDER YOU WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO. Fortunatly for Us they usually did. I don't know what was available for the production welders at the auto frame plant, there might have been something in a file in engineering, but I doubt anything was handy at the line. It was all single pass MIG welding there, if it stuck to both sides and didn't burn through everybody was happy. This was not skilled trades welding.