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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.1: Prequalified WPS amps
- - By rickc (**) Date 05-18-2007 19:55
I'm writing a prequalified FCAW WPS per AWS D1.1:2006. Table 3.7 on page 71 reads that my Maximum Current must be "within the range of recommended operation by the filler metal manufacturer." The filler metal I'm using is .045" Hobart Excel Arc 71 and the manufacturer recommends 250 Amps for flat and horizontal and but does not list a range. Say, 225-275 Amps for example.

I would assume that the "maximum current" part on Table 3.7 would let me reduce the amps and use the manufacturers number as my maximum. If so, how low could I go? One of our welders wanted to go down to 200 Amps. For a qualified by testing WPS I could go +/- 10% or down to 225 Amps by Table 4.5 on page 138 so, 225 would seem to be a reasonable minimum if I was to use that table as my basis but, I can't find anything in the prequalified section.
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 05-19-2007 02:36
I think you will find that that is not the "recommended range" as intended by the code. 
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-19-2007 10:43 Edited 05-19-2007 10:51
http://www.hobartbrothers.com/pdf/datasheets/Excel_Arc71.pdf

The Hobart data sheet provides a range from 170-260 Amps (provided 100%Co2)

You are using an all position electrode, you may produce an all position WPS that covers a wider range of current values.

The reason the suggested amperages for vertical welds are lower is simply because it won't run well at a higher range......  I don't see why you couldn't run flat and horizontal welds in the lower recommended ranges (at slower travel speeds).

The maximum Wire feed speeds (500ipm/260 amps) Hobart recommends are designed for maximum production speeds and thicker materials, but might not be suitable for 1/8 fillets eh?

For training purposes I usually suggest learners use the lower ranges for their first guided bend tests in order to have a little more "think time",  It takes a bit of experience to run FCAW at 500ipm.

I think the whole range may apply.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 05-19-2007 13:57
The parameters listed in this document are "Typical" and are not cited as the "recommended" parameters.  I have been told by two manufacturers that since the early 1990's all but one manufacturer have stopped giving  "recommended" parameters.  The disclaimer is listed on the first page.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-19-2007 17:10
Thanks Joe.

I stand corrected.

I do like the Hobart style data sheets and thoes "Typical" feeds speeds have always been very close to what runs best on our machines.
Parent - - By rickc (**) Date 05-30-2007 17:41
Oops, it seems I have been operating under the assumption that "typical" and "recommended" could be used as synonyms in this case. ...so, which manufacturer still gives "recommended" values?
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 05-30-2007 19:44
I was told by ESAB Alloy Rods that they give "Recommended" values only to DOTs!  Lincoln said that they have typical values that they have acheived success with, and publish that data, but supposedly none of the manufacturers want to be exposed to the liability involved.  Tri-Mark told me essentially the same thing.  I pressed Lincoln to confirm that the "Typical" values were the same thing, and I was told that I was not allowed to make that assumption.  They were not being picky, they just did not want to be in the position of "recommending" settings any more.  
Parent - - By rickc (**) Date 05-30-2007 21:47
Thank you and I certainly can't blame them ...although, that would seem to make it impossible to write a prequalified WPS. I'll see if I can press Hobart on the issue at all.
Parent - By rickc (**) Date 06-01-2007 15:50
Son-of-a-gun, Hobart sent me the works. Nice.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 06-01-2007 16:45
I've turned idiot.  Where on Lincoln's site are the typical parameters?  It's not on the product info sheets any more.

Hg
Parent - By rickc (**) Date 06-01-2007 17:10
It looks like they're under the "More Product Info" link to a .pdf when looking at some filler material. Instead of just giving you the two pages you want though now they have you download the whole catalog and find the page for that filler material.

For example, I looked up Blue Max 316/316L AC-DC and the "More Product Info" linked opened up the "Blue Max and Red Baron Product Catalog" pdf and Page 26 had the info I was actually looking for.

http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/c610.pdf
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-19-2007 18:40
There is no reason not to allow the welder to use the lower amperage as a "test" sample. If the sample passes the bend tests, you have established a more usable range and you can revise the WPS if it makes sense. You need to include information on the electrode extension and voltage as well.

Amperage is a poor way of monitoring any of the semi-automatic welding processes. There are three "constants" that should be listed on the WPS. I call them "constants" because with most conventional CV power supplies they do not change whether the welder is actually welding or if he is simply holding the gun in the air and spooling off wire. The three constants are:

Voltage,
Wire Feed Speed, and
Electrode Extension

Once the values of the three constants are "set", the amperage is determined by the power supply, i.e., the amperage determines the melt-off rate, thus the voltage (arc length) is maintained. The amperage is a variable that will change with any change in the electrode extension, i.e., lengthen the electrode extension and the current will decay, shorten the electrode extension and the current will increase.

Many of the problems I've encountered in the shop were a result of the welders not understanding the need to control the electrode extension. They would set their voltage (arc length) and adjust their current to get a smooth burn, with no regard for the electrode extension. After a break, they would complain the machine wasn't running right; "it's too cold" or "it's too hot". In reality, they had changed their electrode extension without being cognizant of the implications or the affects on the welding operation.

Now, back to my opening statement, one of the reasons we use formal WPSs is to obtain more consistency in production. That is, when all the welders follow a WPS that lists narrow ranges for the welding parameters, the end result will be more consistent welds from one welder to the next and with more predictable results. I like to see manufacturers qualify their welding procedures and base their production WPSs on the parameters used to qualify the procedure and subsequent welder qualification tests so that the production WPS can be based on "lessons learned" during the qualification process and "real" useable welding parameters.

Someone is bound to start hollering that the welder must work within the specified parameters on the WPS. So true! However, there is nothing saying that you can't use a separate WPS with broad ranges to qualify the welders and a separate WPS for production welding that lists more restrictive parameters.

One reason to monitor and record the actual welding parameters used by the welders when they take their performance qualification tests is to compile a reasonable data base of the welding parameters that produce acceptable results and those that do not. As the "welding engineer" or "welding technician" you can "bracket in" on the parameters that produce the desired results, i.e., tighten up on the welding parameters listed on the production WPS.

I do not advocate wide ranges for the voltage, wire feed speed, and travel speed when developing a WPS for a specific application. Once again, narrow ranges will result in more consistent welds from one welder to the next. However, there are cases where the WPS is developed for "general welding" that involves thin and thick materials, various welding positions, groove and fillet welds, etc. that necessitates the need to list wide ranges for the welding parameters. However, listing wide ranges for the welding parameters will result in inconsistency of weld appearance from one welder to the next.

You refer to tables from section 3 and well as section 4. Remember, section 3 deals with prequalified welding procedures where you abide by all the requirements of prequalification. Section 4 is for those welding procedures that deviate from the conditions of prequalification and are required to be qualified by testing. Two reason for qualifying a procedure by testing are the lack of industry recognized satisfactory use and a history of successful results. So, WPSs qualified by testing are restricted to what has been proven to work by the testing regiment.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 06-11-2007 20:06
In your prequalified essential variables you allowed +or- 10% on your amps or WFS.  And for voltage your only allowed + or - 7%.  If you want to go outside of this you must qualify by testing.  Am i reading this right anyone?
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-16-2007 15:38
Hello Kix

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was out of the country for the last week and the hotel where I was staying was interesting. It was built in 1942 and still had a manually operated elevator. The rooms had doors with louvers for ventillation and fresh air. They didn't have internet access, so this is my first opportunity to reply to your inquiry.

I believe you are looking at table 4.5 in D1.1. That table is applicable to procedures qualified by testing, not prequalified WPSs.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / D1.1: Prequalified WPS amps

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