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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / Backstepping
- - By ZCat (***) Date 05-20-2007 18:01
We were TIG welding some 3" carbon gate and globe valves in at the Solar plant in Nevada. They had to be done in position, and were drawing up out of level pretty bad.

I started welding the top quarter first, then drop down and weld the bottom quarter, then switch sides and do the same.

That cured the problem. Some say quarter the weld, jumping from side to side, I found that wasn't necessary.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-24-2007 12:58
Thats one of those intuitive "tricks" that does not get passed on enough!

Had a fellow that simply put could outweld me in apperance at any rate....he kept having trouble with a complex 4130 part with .030 tolerances.  His would "warp" while mine and others did not.  We all got together trying to figure out the problem.   Ok his table he worked from was not the flattest striaghtest thing on earth.  Ok rebuild his jig onto a 1.5 inch steel plate.      Problem continued.   "man wtf it it ..I am backsteeping my long welds and everything".   Thats when it hit me.

I started asking him detail step by step the order in which he conducted his welds and at what point he unjigged the part and finished it.  Basically I told him to follow my step by step weld order ...and guess what the problem dissapeared for him.   It had nothing to do with the Jig, his equipment or anything like that.  His problem was the order in which he welded it.  he was not missing what I was doing by very much....heat does strange things to metal its almost like making love or somthing.  Over time if you pay attention you develop a real sixth sense for what is gonna happen if you do "this".  This guy was a great welder but he had not developed that little "sixth sense" about how things are gonna draw on a complex part.   I felt much better about myself after that despite the fact he can run some of the sickest beads I ever seen.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-24-2007 18:50
Hello Tommyjoking, distortion control is part science, part controllable and uncontrollable variables, and part intuition. You are certainly right when you described the scenario in your post. Not everyone can attain the "knack" for solving distortion related issues and it isn't something that can readily be explained either. Over time many individuals are able to recognize and put into action processes and steps for limiting and controlling distortion problems, some aren't able to recognize or achieve this. Many of the variables that I have run into in this regard are related to how the parts were produced, what sorts of internal stresses are present in the parts to be fitted and welded, which welding process is utilized for welding these parts, this can include things such as different wire diameters, shielding gases used, and in the case of GMAW, which transfer mode is involved. All of the different welding processes can lend or detract from the ease with which distortion can be controlled in a given situation. Individual welders habits and machine setting comfort zones can also have an effect on controlling distortion. Things such as presetting angles to amounts that are slightly greater than the finish angle will allow for shrink to be controlled and help with keeping certain types of parts square or at the correct angle. Heatsink materials will also aid with controlling distortion and warp in some instances. Tightly jigging a part and restraining it while welding can help in many instances as it limits the ability of the parts to move and at the same time may allow the jig to act as a heatsink as well. Setting a bow in certain parts prior to welding and allowing the part to cool before releasing it will also aid with keeping a part straight if that is of importance, in this instance it might require some experimentation with setting the amount of bow, before the correct amount will result in a flat finished part. Through experimentation, careful observation and lots of practice/experience many will be able to judge how to proceed with welding out a weldment to minimize the effects of welding distortion or heat related distortion.
     Extruded and rolled shapes can react very differently to heat and welding processes, in some instances application of heat to these items can actually release internal stresses that will warp or distort them in ways that typically might not follow the general rules of heat and shrinkage(I was taught that generally when heat is applied to a part it will expand and as it cools it will shrink slightly more than it expanded). In the case of some rolled or extruded shapes I have experienced the release of internal forming stresses that override the heat/shrink rule and thus cause the shape to distort in a manner that might not be expected. I think this somewhat explains the intuitive part of recognizing these sorts of things ahead of time and being able to compensate for this. You and the other contributor to this thread have brought up a great topic that has many answers and considerations for all of us out there who are faced with issues for fabricating better parts, pieces, etc. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By fulltrack Date 05-31-2007 16:43
Great post aevald.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-31-2007 17:17
Thanks fulltrack, I have been fortunate to have had a varied career and been around many of the "old timers" to observe and ask questions. Having an interest in one's work doesn't hurt either, I have tried to always learn each and every day, as that part of any trade really never ends and definitely keeps everything interesting. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-01-2007 14:16
It still amazes me what heat will do to steel. I have seen tank floors which were not welded in the proper sequence or the sketch plates were tied down and the floor rolled like water. And there was nothing that could be done. You start cutting one weld loose and another jumps up across the tank. I am talking about a 150-200 foot diameter tank. I saw once a really good welder shrink a hole. He knew where to put the heat and how long to hold it. I never figured it out.
But sequence can be critical.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 06-01-2007 20:52
Hello dbigkahunna, you are certainly right, there are some pretty amazing metalworkers out there. It is unfortunate that many of those with true blacksmithing experience are becoming few and far between or have not had the interest of others to carry on the craft. Regards, Allan
Parent - By RANDER (***) Date 06-02-2007 03:22
Here, Here!!!
Parent - By fulltrack Date 06-01-2007 22:30
I totally agree with you.  Having an interest and keeping your mind and ears open.  I'm novice compared to many on hear and I look at every experience as an oppertunity to learn.  There is so much more than laying a bead and gluing things together.  I'm loving it.  Thanks for sharing.
Parent - - By makeithot (***) Date 06-16-2007 19:31
Allan,
I could not agree more distortion and it's control is a vast topic and has alot of solutions that may or may not apply, I myself learn something new about it every time I encounter a proplem in which I think I have allowed for. A good understanding of it's effects is key in solving most problems that one would run across . As always a well written post.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 06-17-2007 23:32
Hello makeithot, one of the things about technology, the internet, and this forum is that they all allow for instant sharing and understanding of issues. You always hear companies boast of collective years of experience when they are touting the positives of their business, just imagine how that statement could be applied to the Welding Forum, how many years of collective experience do you think might be represented here? I'm sure the answer would be mind boggling and exponentially unfathomable. It is great to be recognized for having made a positive contribution to something and rewarding to have been exposed to information that you can apply. I appreciate the ability to contribute here from time to time and I also appreciate the chance to learn from all of the minds that take time to contribute here as well. Best regards everyone, Allan
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 06-19-2007 05:15
You have a good point. the amount of regulars are probably fewer than 100, but then there are the lurkers who watch for years and pipe in now and then on specific issues. It's hard to put a number on them, but their contributions have been no less valuable.
taking just 100 (more or less) people, at an average of 20 years experience. That would be 2000 years cumulative direct experience.
Then factor in the same group all of which who if ask a question that they don't have an answer will ask others in their personal circle of experience base.
Once the extended network is applied it gets into 10,000 years plus. That to me makes the forum an exceptionally valuable resource.
I can't think of one question I've ever put to the forum that went unanswered.

Regards,
Gerald
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / Backstepping

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