Welding-Music-Shooting!

Date 07-21-2007 02:13

Of the calibers you mentioned, the only ones I have not tried yet are the 45LC and 454 Casull.
It's hard to beat the satisfaction of hitting small targets at long ranges; unless of course you are hitting fast moving targets 6 out of 6 with full-house 357 or 44 mag. Or with the 10mm. or 45ACP ..or..or Arrrgh! Arrrgh! Arrrgh!

By fbrieden (***)

Date 07-21-2007 03:10

Chet,

My son shot my .454 Casull for the first time yesterday....response: "Holy crap dad!!! Now I know why you had me put on these gloves!" Other than that, he's a good shooter with the milder calibers. Thank goodness I cast my own bullets and hand load! Hit or miss.....the whole shooting thing, handguns or long guns, is fun!

Fran

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 07-21-2007 05:11

I loaded up a box of .357 with 158gr hollow points and 13gr of Herculese Blue Dot for deer hunting in the late '70s. I shot some, and a buddie shot some. They weren't real comfortable and probably didn't do Our guns any good, but they sure were loud. I am not so sure I need to play with those "super magnums".

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 07-21-2007 14:14

Now if you REALLY want to experience muzzle blast with your 357, try loading with WW 296 powder (loaded per a reputable loadng manual, of course). I used to use that for 357 and 44 mag. Very spectacular in a 44 when shooting around dusk, the flash spitting out of the cylinder gap goes out a couple of feet on each side. But keep your mouth closed or you'll rattle your fillings loose.
I too use Blue Dot for 357 now because it has similar velocities, lower pressures, and a lot less blast. I get more "shove" and less "slap".

But hearing protection should definitely be used for any handgun shooting regardless of caliber or the loading. (It is claimed that 22LR in a short barrel emits a damaging frequency of noise and we should not underestimate the cumulative effect on hearing loss).

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 07-21-2007 14:24

I never got into casting my own. These days I just don't have enough time to shoot as much as I used to. But the biggest hurdle to overcome is explaining to my 'Chief Financial Officer' why "we" need another firearm. Now, if her shoes were to cost as much as a Super Redhawk....

By makeithot (***)

Date 07-21-2007 19:01

One of the most accurate loads I have ever used for a .357mag is 4.5 grains of HP38 with a 158gr SWC it runs at around 750fps so the barrel doesn't lead up and is easy to clean. Not alot of power but in the ten ring every round at 25 yrds. I buy the wife a new gun every year for xmas. Funning thing is she never seems to to get much use out of em. .454 cussul this year maybe.

By fbrieden (***)

Date 07-21-2007 20:06

Your .454 Casull will be a blast (no pun intended) to shoot. Buy one for her, she'll love it! My son shoots mine better than I do; but his eyes are only 22 years old, not 51!

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 07-22-2007 02:25

The target loads I used in the .357 were really slow too. We used 2 or 2.2 grains of Bullseye or Red Dot and home cast bullets, wadcutters or semi, 140 something grains. My mold has a gas check base, I used the checks with slightly hotter loads. The 13 gr Blue Dot loads were with 158 gr. jacketed bullets, they were supposed to go about 1500 FPS. I never had access to a chronograph, don't know what they really did.

By hogan

Date 07-23-2007 14:55

nothing is as relaxing as a 4-10 with a 30 round clip,

By CWI555

Date 07-27-2007 05:22

Chief financial officer? LOL. Super Redhawk is a fine weapon. It's one of the more durable wheel guns out there. I've several semi auto pistols, rifles and a few scatter guns. Some better than others. Shooting a very small target at a long range is almost like meditation for me. Very calming and soothing. I like the pistols, but the old mark x 98K customs will do the trick every time.

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 07-28-2007 04:22

I have an Anschutz 1411 .22 match rifle that I "had to have" when I was a teenager. The problem with guns like this is that if all the bullets don't go through the same hole You can't blame anybody but Yourself.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 07-28-2007 11:29

Dave,
Did you ever hear of the term REP. (Range Error Probable) The ammo actually has variance allowance that is specified by contract. Military Ammo really has quite a bit of variance allowed. I remember seeing the REP requirement for 7.62 NATO ammo once, and I knew that when I heard about some sniper hitting a rediculously small target at some phenomemal range, I knew it was just luck of pure BS.

So, take heart! It is not necessarily your fault!

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 07-29-2007 05:14

My shooting mentor and all arround good guy Everet Burhans had a 24X Unertil scope. We put that on My Anshutz and I did get a slightly oval hole about 1/4" wide and 3/8" high for a 10 shot group at 50 yds prone with a sandbag. I may have been using some match ammo He had. My cousin tells Me that todays .22 bulk ammo will only pattern 1.5" @ 50 yds. I used to get penny size 5 shot groups at 50 yds. with ordinary ammo and every ordinary .22 scoped rifle in the family back in the mid '70s. A guy who worked with My Dad shot on the Army team. They used match ammo, I have a box somewhere that He smuggled for Me [7.62 - LC 72] I guess they were a bit better. These were from a Govt. owned facility, Lake City Arsenal, hense the LC headstamp. Maybee the snipers got better stuff too?

By CWI555

Date 07-29-2007 05:45

Take a trip to Perry in Ohio and talk to the various military teams. They'll all tell you they are not using the general run of the mil rounds. I know a lot of the things the military does doesn't make any sense, but they do do this one thing right. They have dedicated armorers for the sniper rifles, and special ammo to match. Standard grade just won't cut it for long range shots, putting run of the mill ammo in a specialized sniper rifle makes as much sense as putting 87 octane gas in a dragster.

By XPERTFAB (**)

Date 07-30-2007 00:35

I would have loved to have gotten ahold of some those "Top Fuel" military/police type rounds for my Glocks carried one to a boot when working/welding in southcentral LA a few years ago. The enhanced muzzle velocity along with the increased flash and elevated "pop" would have certainly increased their ability as a "deterrent!"

By CWI555

Date 07-30-2007 04:08

There are still some of those out there under the IMI label. If you can't find them, buy the brass and load them. Remember to buy mil brass, Widners out of johnson city I believe it is carries it. The difference in rounds is 37,000 psi peak for 10ms out of saami spec, vs 45K for 14ms (figures are out of memory so may be in error, but it shouldn't be to far off). As a word of caution, only a few pistols are built for that ammo. Glock 17 is one of them, a Ruger P89 can handle it, Sig 229 (229 and 226 are built different, don't put it in a 226), the IMI baby eagle, HK USP in 9, are all capable. Beretta, SW, and most other pistol manufactures only design for saami spec. The military ammo with the higher spec are primarily used in things like the MP 5 and UZI.

Thats speaking for the Military ammo, the police +P+ is running in the 39 to 40 range and all mentioned can handle it.

My two cents worth,
Gerald

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 07-30-2007 04:31

One of My night school teachers during My tool & die apprenticeship had been a toolmaker at Frankfurt Armory in Philly. He mentiond working on some really neet stuff, sub sonic silenced to the point You couldn't hear it, etc. But He couldn't tell Us much about it.

By CWI555

Date 07-31-2007 01:32

.300 whisper, a .308 diameter bullet in a 5.56 by 45 case (.223) case is necked up to .308 diameter, muzzle velocity is subsonic with a 168 grain bullet. There are AR 15 rifles built for this round as well as mil. M16 variants. The only real advantage over say a silenced .45 is accuracy, there is not advantage in energy.

By makeithot (***)

Date 07-30-2007 16:38

CWI555, Couple of the boys I know confirmed what I have always beliefed, custom ammo is the only way to achieve consistent accuracy. No two guns shoot alike each will require a slightly different load. Could be a matter of a few grains of powder or it require a different, powder ,lead etc. That is the challenge of custom loaded ammo finding that perfect combo for a particular round. that's how they make those shots a mile and half out. Brings a whole new meaning to reach out and touch someone.

By CWI555

Date 07-31-2007 01:26

The boys you spoke with are absolutely correct. A few of the things would be once fire then neck sizing only, land/bullet spacing eccentricity checks, primer pocket depth verification, case to case weight checks, weighing each charge, bullet weight to weight/eccentricity,cannular verifications. Powder weight, grain verification, management of lot and batch for primers and powder. Low and high elevation loads, low and high temperature loads, low and high humidity loads. All play a roll in shot to shot consistency, and that consistency = accuracy. When your sponsored by say Winchester the Marines or some other such group, the Nth detail goes into the rounds. I know of one group that x rayed each bullet to verify consistent base bonding of the lead to copper. It's basically as anal as you want to get with it. For normal folks only half of that is ever necessary if any. For the folks who are trying to put a .308 diameter bullet in a .310 hole at 800 yards shot to shot, all those things matter, not to mention the BMG folks who are knocking down 10" and smaller steel targets at a mile and a half out.

By makeithot (***)

Date 08-01-2007 16:25

The once fired round through the gun of your choice and then neck re-sizing is one of the keys to good loads. You for one are not wasteing energy to expand the case in the chamber so it is then transfered to the bullet. In turn you can then lighten the powder charge a bit for ecomomical reasons and it also burns cleaner depending on the powder .

By CWI555

Date 08-02-2007 02:01

absolutely right. But for safety reasons it must be mentioned that this only applies to single shots and bolt rifles. Semi Auto's, lever actions, or other designs of gated or auto loaders cannot use neck resizing only without a crimp. Typically neck resizing uses very little crimp if any, and that can cause the bullet to be jammed back into the case as the round is loaded. This can cause severe overpressure and failure of the rifle and potential subsequent substantial harm to the shooter. I realize you know this, but I didn't think it wise to leave that unsaid for someone that doesn't know.

By makeithot (***)

Date 08-02-2007 15:42

By all means. I'll go one step further and say for those that are thinking of getting started in the hobby of reloading that. Reading, studying and understanding your loading manual is important. With each new tecnique safety is the key to this diverse hobby. With a little common sence and strict adherence to safety procedures it is in my opinion ,that it is one of the most rewarding ,detailed oriented hobbies out there. Like welding there is always something new to learn. I've been reloading for twenty plus years and still consider myself a novice.

By 357max

Date 08-02-2007 17:01

To tidy up the shop I found a use for really, really short tungsten electrodes. If they are too short for the collet & collet bodies; they work for a non-toxic (lead-free) home defense load in the 12 gauge. If they are a bit too long for the shot cup length, just cut to fit. Don't have pieces sticking out of the protective shot cup. Doesn't matter if they are balled, blunt or pointed. Don't pack them tight cause they don't compress. Weigh the loads each and every one - one at a time, some loads have 1/8 to 0.040 tungsten diameter to fill up the space.
Short barrell (18 is legal but be careful and don't commit a Randy Weaver use 19-20 inches) and no choke. I can imagine the game warden may raise an eye brow if this combination is used for turkey, duck & goose hunting this fall.

By aevald

Date 08-02-2007 17:51

Hello 357max, your mention of using old tungstens reminded me of a thought that I had once for a load for my 220 Swift varminter. I thought about drilling out the tip of some bullets to accept an 1/8" pointed tungsten and pressing that in before I loaded it up. Thought that it make for some interesting shooting on some heavier plate. You can hit some pretty awesome velocities with this particular caliber. Haven't done it yet, but still considering it. BTW your load sounds rather interesting to say the least. Regards, aevald

By 357max

Date 08-02-2007 18:35

The insert into a rifle bullet; that concept is the armor piercing principle, I believe. Wonder what the accuracy would be? Suppose it depends on if it was pure or thoriated! Thoriated would also provide deeper penetration!
The tungsten shot shell idea is not original. It came out of 'nam back in '68. We in USMC used shotguns for roving perimeter patrol point positions and were issued UMC green plastic 12 ga cartridges with 1/16-3/32" (?) diameter steel fleshettes with a 2 fins stamped on one end and pointed by shearing an angle all in a plastic shot cup. It was either 39 or 49 (?) in each shell. About half were forward with points and the other half were points backwards. No worries they all came out and straightened them selves on the target.
The tungsten doesn't have fins so you can imagine the pattern. Some hit absolutely flat making a rectangle (like throwing a brick) hole not round. The half a coffee can of tungsten ends may get used up a bit fast. I am saving about a dozen loads for home defense. It has about a 9 inch pattern at 20 feet.

By aevald

Date 08-02-2007 19:22

Hello again 357max, when I first bought my 220, I was young and the ballistics on this particular caliber caught my eye, it was the only round out there that exceeded 4000 fps., it also had the sad trait of having only one ammunition manufacturer(Norma, I believe)that produced ammo for it. Eventually there were two(Frontier was the second), and now I don't know, I have reloaded for it ever since. Those first factory loaded shells were 40 grs. with a muzzle velocity of 4140 fps. Shortly after I got this rifle Remington came up with some saboted bullets that would push a 22 cal. bullet out of a 30-06 or a 30-30 at over 4000 fps., they had the 22 cal. slug encased in a nylon sabot, I don't recall the weight of this slug, however. As far as accuracy with a saboted bullet is concerned, I don't know, I would think it would have a lot to do with the concentricity of the bullet and it's center insert and how evenly it is weighted. One of these days I might just find out when I have nothing better to do. Enjoying the thread. Regards, aevald

By makeithot (***)

Date 08-02-2007 20:39

Aevald, Sabot rounds are extremaly accurate and can have velocities 3500 - 4000 fps. I belief that their accuracy is due to the fact that there is no rifle marks on the bullet which inturn produces better flight characteristics and reduces the chance of the bullet tumbleing. I to have a norma round that is hard to find brass for 357 Norma Mag. You have to tie a hankerchief on the end of the barrel to wipe your nose on the heavyer loads but satisfying none the less. Great thing about this round is you can shoot through nine feet of moose meat and still hit'em in the eye. I use saboted rounds primarily in a black powder gun and with a saboted hard ball and 95 gr of black powder it is hard to miss at 100yrds even though I would perfer to be a little closer for a kill shot.

By aevald

Date 08-03-2007 05:39

Hello makeithot, appreciate the reply and information, been a fair amount of time since I've done a great deal of reloading or shooting. Used to take up a lot of my time, before the wife and family came along. Just about to the point where the kids are grown and I might have some time to pursue the hobby again and include the kids. Thanks again, regards, Allan

By CWI555

Date 08-03-2007 03:49

If your going to go for Tungsten core, your better off finding yourself some old black tip 06 rounds and pulling the bullets. Or some green tip, or other such.
Having said that, you could start making your own bullets entirely. I got into that a few years back, and it's taken a long time to get something halfway accurate.
If for instance that insert is off center, it will definetly throw off accuracy, and in some cases can be dangerous as is displayed by the bulge I have in my Rem .308 test rifle barrel. I don't advise an insert for that reason.

By aevald

Date 08-03-2007 05:30

Hello Gerald, if I did decide to go about doing something like this I would use my lathe with a collet chuck and very carefully bore out the center of the round, I would also work up the powder very carefully. Or I might even turn some nylon sabots to house the tungsten, nevertheless, I would use a great amount of caution. Appreciate your enlightenment and experience regarding this sort of thing. Thanks and regards, Allan

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 08-03-2007 07:17

Be glad you don't live in New Jersey. I'm pretty sure that assembling armor piercing ammo (or even posessing it) is illegal here.
Bill

By CWI555

Date 08-03-2007 14:10

Most of the firearms in question are illegal in Jersey, the bullet would be a mute point.

By aevald

Date 08-03-2007 15:24

Hello Bill, to be honest, I haven't checked on the legality of this type of ammo in my state or area. Although I certainly don't intend to be in the "Breaking News" section on CNN or anything either. As a much younger lad I did have a pension for trying things that might have been shunned by law enforcement or others, although these were things for the entertainment of myself or my friends and not intended to harm or promote illegal acts. I guess I haven't totally gotten over the experimentation phases of my boyhood. Regards, Allan

By fbrieden (***)

Date 08-02-2007 02:17

Just set up targets at our hunting camp. Steel plate, A516 grade 70, 1/2"x 12"x20". Targets located at 25, 50, and 100 yards...TONS of fun with ALL handgun calibers.....BANG... ping! The 100 yard target seems to be my favorite, as well as, my sons!

By johnnyh (***)

Date 08-03-2007 21:05

Watch out for ricochets.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 08-04-2007 01:29

Although ricochets can be a concern, I doubt ricochets from Fran's 454 will be much of a concern. Now low velocity lead wadcutters are another matter. A 38 Spl wadcutter bounced off a berm made of timbers and smacked me in the leg from about 20 yards. It didn't penetrate- it did raise a nice bruise- but I have never forgotten it. It took me a little while to convince myself that I did not have a hole in my leg. Then I went right back at it, but into gravel instead of timbers.

By fbrieden (***)

Date 08-04-2007 01:53

Chet,

Thanks for the response! Hard cast bullets fragment BIG time! Never had any ricochet or "response" from ANY cast bullet I shoot...I value my son AND myself too much! BANG....ping.... a good thing!

Fran

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 08-04-2007 13:35

As I said, I doubt ricochets will be a problem for you. Higher velocities and steel targets make for disintegrated bullets - that is evidenced by the lead and/or jacketing "splashes" under the target.

The main problem is low velocities like you get from 38SPL wadcutter loads and somewhat resilient backstops (tree trunks, timbers, creosoted poles). Under those conditions there isn't enough energy availabe to fully fragment the bullet, nor to reliably penetrate and stop within the backstop; the hard wood compresses but doesn't yield well to the bullet.
For those who have chopped wood- if a dull axe would bounce off the wood, don't use it as a pistol backstop.

I have never had a problem when shooting steel targets "square-on" with any bullet- although there is usually a warning against using FMJs on steel. And naturaly, sloping surfaces can send a bullet off on a tangent.
The only problem I have had with steel targets is that they don't stand up well to my 30-06- you know- when you just GOTTA see what it will do.

By makeithot (***)

Date 08-04-2007 14:27

1/2" T-1 stops those 30-06 rounds cold makes a nice ring though.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 08-06-2007 08:38

I haven't tried T-1 - but now I'll have to.

By makeithot (***)

Date 08-04-2007 14:24

Made up some great gongs myself not long ago and can totally relate to the "bang - ping" theory, with black powder it is more like " click-swoosh-Boom-Ping" It's great because while you wait for the smoke to clear you can hear that you've alresdy hit the target. I paint mine with a flouresent marker paint as well so you can see where you hit the target it also makes a little puff of orange dust when hit which is cool. I set mine up on a pendulum and can normally find the lead right under the target the larger rounds just disntigrate. Can't speel for s@#$ today.

By CWI555

Date 08-07-2007 01:44

Last time I shot any black powder it it was a flint lock which went like click-swoosh-fizzle-fizzle-woooshh-bang-oh-CH#$ as the powder in the flash pan (which I had overloaded in a moment of alcholic wisdom) flashed up, caught my beard on fire, and sent me running for the creek.

By fbrieden (***)

Date 08-07-2007 02:53

Alcohol + Gun Powder (smokeless/black powder) = stupidity! DO THE MATH!

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 08-07-2007 03:00

"Alchoal leads to conflicts, Guns resolve conflicts, Perfect combination" Not that I actually believe in this methodology, I think it as a line from the "Blue Collar Comedy Tour"

By CWI555

Date 08-07-2007 15:13

Fully agree. That was many many years ago. I've long since give up alcohol for that and other reasons.

By makeithot (***)

Date 08-09-2007 01:33

Back in the day, there was nothing funnyier then a truck full of rednecks,couple cases of beer and some firearms! Seems as though these days that is no longer sociably acceptable. CWI555 I feel your pain, But that beard thing is damm funny.

By makeithot (***)

Date 08-09-2007 01:37

Gun Control - "Thats when you hit what you shoot at no matter how drunk you are".

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 08-07-2007 16:25

Now THAT is funny. Not that I enjoy the misfortunes of others but I can't help but picture a Looney Tunes cartoon. Sounds like something the coyote would do in trying to get the roadrunner.