Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / Cleaning AL
- - By rebekah (**) Date 07-30-2007 17:38
Hey

Been working on alot of filthy dirth aluminum lately.  The joys of wirebrushing and scothbriting are wearing thin.  Can you use some kind of acid to remove a thick oxide layer?

Rebekah
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 07-31-2007 04:21
I have a bottle of Crest Aluminum Cleaner, by Dynaflux, INC. Cartersville, Ga. I never used it so I cant vouch for it's effectiveness, but it is made to do what You want.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 07-31-2007 07:58
If you can find somone who does aluminum coatings in your area (anodizing, alodine).  They will more than likely have an etching acid tank....this gets down to the raw surface fairly easily and quickly.   As long as its not real oily I don't think someone would charge you too much to give your a material a dip.  Note that it will be white when done  not shiny.

BTW.  Are you using scotchbrite on a power tool or by hand?  3M Scotchbrite can be had that attaches to die grinders in a disc form and it will remove oxide and other contaminants in a hurry...shine it up in seconds literally.  The blueish green color is great for a fine brite finish.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Manufacturing/Industry/Product-Catalog/Online-Catalog/?PC_7_0_4UVL_root=GST1T4S9TCgv&PC_7_0_4UVL_output=html&PC_7_0_4UVL_gvel=H55CPWS904gl&PC_7_0_4UVL_vroot=81LC4NNTD4ge&PC_7_0_4UVL_node=VBD41VJNG5be&PC_7_0_4UVL_theme=en_us_manufacturingindustry_portal&PC_7_0_4UVL_command=CustomizePageHandler
http://www.autobarn.net/mmm07480.html
Parent - By rebekah (**) Date 09-05-2007 15:59
sorry for the late reply.  I dont think there is anyone in the area that does al coatings.  We send everything out to houston.  I am using power tools but this is old dirty nasty aluminum.  It is wearing out the discs pretty fast, just all gummed up, then it just smears instead of shines.  I will try to find that Crest stuff.

thanks
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 09-05-2007 20:58
Please be very careful when using chemicals around the welding arc. Phosgene gas can be easily produced with chloride base chemicals. ie Brake cleaner may or may not have chloride. Please read the content/composition label. Acid etches may require a rinse. 
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-06-2007 20:45
If your cleaning aluminum for the sake o removing grit and grime, then any stainless steel wire wheel or soft pad sanding disk will do. If you are cleaning the aluminum in prepration for welding, do not use products that use aluminum oxide as the abrasive. After all, it is aluminum oxide/hydroxides you are trying to remove.

Chemical cleaning usually involves a sodium (?) hydroxide bath followed by a dip in nitric acid to desmut the aluminum, then clear water flush, followed by air drying.

As for using the wire wheel, it isn't usually recommended because it burnishes the aluminum and can drive the oxide into the surface fo the aluminum.

Grinding disks and pads should be silicon carbide, not "scotch-brit" which uses alumnum oxide as an abrasive.

Good luck - Al
Parent - By TozziWelding (**) Date 09-07-2007 01:39
I use an uncontamonatd SS wire brush and lots of acetone. When you think it is clean enough, clean it some more.
Parent - - By rebekah (**) Date 09-07-2007 16:11
You are killing me, Al!!  I think all of my abrasives are aluminum oxide based.  I typically use a sanding disc, then a scotch brite disc, to get the majority of the oxide off, and then right before welding, hand brush it really well with a stainless brush and wipe with alcohol.  Guess I have to stock up with silicon carbide based discs!  To feed into a stereotype, I love shopping!!!--but I like hardware and metal suppy stores the best.

The chemical cleaning sounds convienent but after air drying, wouldnt it need to be cleaned again before welding?  I am under the assumption that aluminum oxides builds up really fast.

Thanks again for all info.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-07-2007 20:39
You are correct. It has been said that no one has actually seen aluminum because it oxidizes immediately upon exposure to air. That may be an overstatement, but it certainly makes the point that the aluminum oxidizes very quickly.

I have been told, actually I saw it in a book once, that about 90% of the maximum aluminum oxide thickness occurs in the first 24-hours of exposure. For that reason many welding standards include a time limitation between cleaning and welding the aluminum.

One way around the problem of purchasing new grinding disks is to draw file the groove faces before welding. I use a file I purchased from a horse supply store. It's the same file they use to dress the horse's hoofs. It is like a vixen file on steroids. It has an aggressive cut and removes sufficient material to include any aluminum oxide grit from the grinding disks.

I use a single directional stroke when filing or brushing, usually in the direction of the groove edge. The motion is like that which would be used when cutting with a hacksaw. It works very nicely.

I keep all my tools used to clean aluminum in a large sealable container about half full of isopropyl alcohol (90%).  Before I use them, I give the container a good shaking to flush the wire brushes, files, etc. When the debris builds up, I change the alcohol.

I use acetone to clean the heavy accumulations of grime, oils, etc, but I always follow it with a flush of alcohol.  I keep some alcohol in a plastic squeeze bottle just for that purpose. An empty plastic dish washing soap container works well and the price is right. Keep in mind the solvents, i.e., acetone, alcohol, etc., are flammable, so it is a good idea to place them out of harm's way and beyond the reach of sparks from grinding and welding. I have the solvent tucked away under the welding table where they are protected from exposure to ignition sources. I have a sheet metal container (into which the squeeze bottles are placed) with a lid that keeps any stray sparks from coming into contact with the solvents. The sheet metal container will also contain the conflagration should a fire ignite. What's going to burn, the one inch steel plate I use as a welding bench? I don't think so.

When performing the final cleaning operation, I don't recommend using a solvent soaked rag. Rags leave lint behind after wiping. The lint is a hydrocarbon that will disassociate and introduce hydrogen into the weld zone when "burned" by the welding arc. Porosity will result from the hydrogen. So, I wipe with a acetone soaked rag to degrease the material, brush and file to remove oxides, and then flush the pieces with alcohol to remove any materials from the earlier cleaning steps.

Any interpass cleaning is performed with a clean stainless steel wire brush.

If you use a 5356, or other filler metal alloyed with magnesium, you will see black smut beside the weld if you use the GMAW process. The black smut should be removed by wire brushing between weld passes, especially if it is observed on the groove faces. The black smut is actually very small spheres of "pure" magnesium. The smut will "flare" if you wire brush it while the base metal is still hot.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By natecf (*) Date 09-08-2007 02:45
I have a raging debate among my tig welders with regards to this very topic. about half think that alcohol must be used, the other think that acetone alone works for final cleaning and that there is no difference in the weld. not being a tig welder, I cannot offer much input other than that the acetone is a much more efficient cleaner. all of our material is 60 series al. filler is either 4043 or 5556. Is there a real difference between the two solvents with respect to the integrity of the weld.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 09-08-2007 03:16
ummmm I am sure to get shot down here I think but...

I've always prefered acetone to ANY other solvent on aluminum....its extremely flammable so as Al said care must be taken to keep it away from ignition sources...one reason its so flammable is its evaporation rate is very high so it gets in the air quick.  It cleans very well and as far as I can tell leaves no residue whatsoever.  

Al      I do have a question: I looked up the MSDS on 3m scotchbrite and indeed aluminum oxides are in the roloc discs (not in all the sheet scotchbrite tho).   We have been using these (rolocs) for years as a mill surface remover and joint preperation abrasive on aluminum and on steels.   Going back with chemical wipedown after.... So because its using AL oxides in "whatever" the concentrations.... are you stating that this is a contamination issue of the weldments/weld?  Technically speaking AL (and really any metal) oxidizes on contact with air so we are always welding the oxide to some degree.   I am just having a hard time seeing a brite buffed piece of aluminum that has just been wiped over with Acetone or alcohol  having a significant amount of contamination at the surface to affect the quality of a weld...provided its welded as you were saying in a resonable amount of time.   This is a good subject I think to delve into a bit....
 
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-08-2007 13:04 Edited 09-08-2007 13:36
I'm not an overly scientific person, but I do like a little "show and tell" demonstration once in a while.

Take a sheet of aluminum that has a shine to it, not heavily oxidized or coated with hydroxides, and wipe one area with acetone and one area with alcohol. Which seems to be clouded and which still has a shine? I do agree that the acetone is better at removing grease and oil, that's why I use acetone first before removing the oxides or preparing the edge for welding. The alcohol is use just before welding to remove any residues like fingerprints, lint, contamination from shop air, etc.

You are correct in saying that most metals begin to oxidize when they come into contact with air (oxygen being the element of concern). However, is it common practice to clean steel with iron oxide? No, of course not for several reasons, one of which is the iron oxide is the contaminant we are attempting to remove. Other reasons include: it breaks down and becomes dusty easily and it isn't as hard as steel.

The advantages of aluminum oxide are that it is hard, doesn't become dusty (break down into smaller particles), it has a high melting point (this is not always an advantage, oops, wrong column), has a lower density than iron and most of its alloying constituents. It works well as an abrasive for most metals.

However, in the case of aluminum, the density of the aluminum oxide abrasive is nearly the same as for the base metal so it doe not have a tendency to float out of the weld, thus it causes the weld to be brittle. It has a melting temperature that is nearly three times higher than the base meal (1200 versus 3200 degrees F), so there is little tendency to melt or to disassociate in the arc.

How much aluminum oxide can be present? How good do you need your weld to be? The more oxide present, the more severe the embrittlement problem becomes. Excessive amounts of oxide tend to reduce the wetting action of the molten aluminum.

Try to weld aluminum that is heavily oxidized.  The aluminum base metal will melt, but the heavy oxide layer will prevent the metal from flowing. Instead the oxide acts like a shell mold and holds the original shape until it is heated to the point it melts and the aluminum starts to flow, by then it is superheated to the point other bad things begin to happen, such as those materials with low vaporization temperatures may begin to volatize (magnesium comes to mind).

As you said, all metals have some oxide present, but in the case of most metals we can add deoxidizers to the filler metals. There are a limited number of deoxidizers used with aluminum and they tend to be very chemically active. So we are left with the option of cleaning the surface of the aluminum immediately before welding to reduce the oxide layer to a minimal amount. We also use AC to reap the benefit of cathodic cleaning (which reduces the efficient utilization of the arc energy) and we live with the reduced penetration and lower travel speeds.

As mentioned in another post, you can scrape the surface of the aluminum just before welding to reduce the oxide layer as well as brushing it or draw filing it. Whatever method is selected to remove the oxide, we don't want to add more oxide to the surface nor do we want to imbed the aluminum oxide into the surface of the metal. Notice in my previous post, I said to wire brush the aluminum using a unidirectional stroke. You do not want to use a scrubbing (back and forth) motion because the moment you reverse the stroke you tend to push the oxide into the surface of the metal.

Many of my suggestions are "lessons leaned" by qualifying many (many, many) aluminum procedures.

Maybe that is why I believe that the contractor needs to go through the procedure qualification process to truly appreciate the complications involved in obtaining good welds. Do you know how many times I've heard, "We never had a problem until you made us qualify the procedure"? What they fail to realize is the problem was always there, but they never knew it!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 09-08-2007 04:34
How about a die grinder or a dremel with a carbide burr.  Or simpler a machinists scraper, an old triangular file ground on the flat sides till the edges are sharp.  Only the first inch or so from the end is necessary.  You could also put on your smithy hat and draw the end of a flat file out a little thinner and turn it 90 degrees or so, temper hard and sharpen.
Bill
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-08-2007 13:26 Edited 09-08-2007 13:31
Yes, yes, yes, and yes, but what do you mean when you write; "only the first inch or so from the end is necessary"?

A good means of preparing the groove is to use a heavy duty router with carbide cutting tools. A bit noisy, but fast, efficient, and you can get the shape you want fairly inexpensively.

As for the carbide burrs (rotary files), the normal cut used for most metals is too fine for working aluminum. There are rotary files available for use on soft metals. They have a "vixen" type cut and don't load up as easily as a standard rotary file. I do like to use an angle grinder with a thin (1/4 to 3/8 inch wide) wheel type milling cutter with carbide teeth for removing unacceptable welds or back gouging grooves. 

Many people coat the rotary files and sanding disks with bee's wax or other commercial concoctions. They will cause porosity if they are not completely removed from the surfaces to be welded. I simply dip the rotary file in alcohol or acetone frequently during use. It isn't perfect and it isn't as good as bee's wax, but it offers limited help in preventing the aluminum building up on the cutting edge. I also keep the material wetted with alcohol or acetone while using the rotary file. As has been mentioned several times, this is highly flammable stuff, so keep your wits about you and use the least amount possible while still geting the job done. Don't let your gloves and clothing get saturated with alcohol or acetone. I usually put on a different shirt or welding jacket when I weld to keep myself from becoming a "man-on-fire".

While I think of it. That sheet of aluminum that looks so clean after "scotch-briting" the surface, try wiping it down with a clean white cloth wetted with acetone or alcohol. How clean does the cloth look after wiping down the "clean" aluminum? It amazes me the amount of grime that comes off the welding rod when I wipe it with a clean white cloth saturated with alcohol. Yuk!

Best regards - Al
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 09-09-2007 04:25
From the end of the file,  if you sharpen too much you tend to cut your fingers.
Bill
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-09-2007 20:13
Webbcity from Alaska made an interesting observation to some of our comments about acetone and alcohol used to clean the aluminum. He said that none of us noted the dangers of using the solvents from a health standpoint. I agree with him, it is important to note the dangers of using chemicals in the workplace, so I have copied my reply to this post as well.

You make an important point Willie.

Safety must always be a consideration when working with chemicals of any kind.

I have attended many seminars on worker safety and I'm certified in HAZMAT, so I know how important it is to recognize the hazards and toxicity of the chemicals we use everyday. It is easy to forget that those individuals that are new to metal working industries may not be as familiar with the dangers as we are.

There are a number of solvents that (used to be used and some still are used) that are harmful to our bodies and are easily absorbed through our skin.  A few chemical concoctions that come to mind include: gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel, benzene, carbon tetrachloride, MEK, acetone, and the list goes on and on. 

What many workers don't recognize are the hazards associated with using chemicals in combination. At one seminar, the speaker said that less than 10% of the industrial chemicals have been tested in combination with other common chemicals. One example he gave us was the deadly combination of the fumes from the chemicals used in dry cleaning and ethyl alcohol. The scenario he gave us was a woman that had her dress dry cleaned in the morning so she could wear the dress in the evening. The combination of the fumes lingering in the fabric from the dry cleaning solvent and a mixed drink killed her.

There was mention of chemicals (both acidic and basic) used to clean aluminum in one of the recent threads. The chemicals used to clean base metals may be buffered, but still, they can cause serious chemical burns that are painful and take a very long time to heal. I remember one acid I used for etching aluminum, fluoric acid; the chemist would not allow any of his technicians to mix it for me and he told me that it is easily absorbed through the skin and the warning that it causes bone cancer. The bottom line is that we should always wear chemical resistant gloves and protective eyewear when using these chemicals. 

As welders, employed in the metalworking industry, we are exposed to numerous safety hazards everyday. It is important that we don't become calloused and forgetful of the hazards.

Thanks again for the reminder.

Work Safe! - Al
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 09-10-2007 05:41 Edited 09-10-2007 12:13
LOL I remember the kids in wood shp sniffing a pan of acetone to get high...its no joke kids this will rot your brain in short order thats why you get high from it.   Using these cleaners correctly requires a respirator qualified for it......how many of us do it??    I will say I use a air vac for many procedures.....at least I am sucking it away from my breathing air.......do I do what I should   the answer is sadly no I do not.  A metal woker pulls out the mek/mpk and I freak out on them l.....loads mek in a container marked for epoxy solvent.   the heavy keytone aka heavy metal solvents I am frankly afraid of but why should I not be just as afraid of acetone or even alcophol ...they all have their affect on our health.      Jeez man   FLUX fumes are deadly enough we do not need to help it along....Iam talking to myself as much as any of you....thing is ....

don't EVER count on a procedure or saftey policy to keep you safe....The only way you will be safe is if you insure that you are.     Do your own research use PPE that you belive in and keep yourself alive down the road.      That black xxxx your blowing out your nose don't seem like much till you have done it for 20+ years.

Hope that helps somone
Tommy
Parent - By combopipey Date 10-02-2007 20:17
want the easy way to clean for a weld on Al? fire up the torch like if you were pre heating for a weld,hit it with pure acc flame n turn black, then fire up with acc/O2 and hold flame 1 1/2 ion or so awayu as to not heat to fast,when it heats it will burn if acc "smoke" and show any impurities. use soft wire brush to remove, then go ahead and finish the heating/ burnoff of pure acc smoke to finish cleaning out pores and at the same time, preheats the Al for close to perfect preheat for welding.
Parent - By mooseye (**) Date 10-09-2007 13:36
Don't forget that you may be sucking in an explosive mixture with that vacuum and a spark could set off a bomb in the waste container.
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 10-05-2007 22:39
dilluted muriatic acid - try it........

I told you guys this, nobody believed me - mill scale, fingerprints etc...............
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-06-2007 03:23
How much do You dilute it? Do You rinse it off afterward?
Parent - By TRC (***) Date 10-07-2007 13:52
Rebeka in addition to all these other Tricks of the Trades, I use the finecut carbide burrs to clean the edges on AL sheet metal. They are the bullet shaped ones and have only about 1/2" cutting surface. I use a low RPM rear discharge angle grinder and only turn the burr at a couple hundred RPMs, I've also drilled and tapped the trigger paddle and put a screw in it to control the speed. This keeps the burr from loading up and I don't have to do anything to keep it clean. All acetone cleaning is done prior to burr cleaning and if it's a D17.1 job I brake out the lint free white gloves to minimize hand contamination.

:) Ted
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 10-08-2007 23:45
Yes, wash it off soon after you get the scale or impurities off, otherwise your material will rust or oxidize.

Truthfully, I don't dilute it because I've worked with it plenty times.

DO NOT use this stuff without a damn good respirator - you will hurt your lungs from just one breath in.......and it will burn your skin.

Isn't our job neato..........??
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 10-27-2007 15:12
Personally I don't care for scotchbrite on al. I use a Sait specialized al grinding wheel if roughness is not an issue. Sanding discs otherwise. If there's oil I spray and wipe with starter fluid from NAPA. This is probably dangerous as all get out, but I've used it for a quarter century without incident.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / Cleaning AL

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill