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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Helium Three!!!
- - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-08-2007 06:02 Edited 08-08-2007 06:21
Hello Everybody!!!

The last time we went to the moon was in 1972 with Apollo 17... Harrison Schmitt was the first real trained scientist to be on the moon, and the second to last man to stand on the moon. Btw, it was he who discovered that the moon was abundantly rich in He3! It was his friend and professor @ the University of Wisconsin, Frogive me if I mispell his last name, Professor Kucinchki that figured out how benificial He3 would be in the case of Nuclear fusion reactors, and how He3 can slow down the bombardment of neutrons on the inner walls of a fusion reactor.

As you might've concluded, I just finished watching a documentary named: "The Moon for Sale."
I was quite fascinated as I've been since childhood of the potential of widescale use of nuclear fusion as the primary energy source for our country and the world...

What does helium three have to do with nuclear fusion? Well, let's just say that with it the walls of a nuclear fusion reactor will not become destroyed in short order if Helium three is used to control the neutron bombardment that destroys the inner walls of the fusion reactor. Hence making Nuclear fusion economically possible... The Moon has conservatively speaking, over 1 million tons of this gas!!! More than enough to power fusion reactors for the next millenium!!!  That's one thousand years, and that's a conservative estimateThe "Persian Gulf of the twenty first century!!!" We've already discovered some under the deepest dpeths of our oceans.. particularly in the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico, and have confidence in finding similar deposits near the south pole but, nowhere near the scale as on the Moon!!!

I believe we should first learn how to handle it right here on earth before we start ot transport it back from the moon... At the same time make sure that the reserves on the moon remain ours, and we do'nt make the same mistake of being dependant on this pseudo fuel also if we let the rest of the world exploit what we discovered, and use it to choke us economically as OPEC does in our present day!!! We should become the head of He3PEC - PERIOD!!! Heck we should become the cartel - Exclusively!!!

Will it be easy to procure??? Hell no!!! but is it worth it to exploit??? Hell YES!!!
We as a nation should immediately proclaim every landing site and a radius of 1000 miles from each site, sovereign United States Territory  YESTERDAY!!!! Why??? The Chinese, the Russians, The Indians, the Japanese and the Europeans are gearing up to take possession of Lunar territory and in some cases, in the very locations already explored by the US!!!

Now I do'nt know about you but, I for one want to know what the presidential candidates have to say about this potential land grab!!! If the nations of the Persian Gulf, and the Former Soviet Union - Russia have control of over half of the oil on this planet then we should be able to take control of the moon and it's natural resources!!! We can give nations that want to buy mineral rights to tracts of land, the opportunity to do so but, maintain the sovereignty of the Moon as US territory - Period!!!

We need to get the majority of our troops out of Iraq very soon, and start a "Manhattan Project" scale program to secure the Moon!!! It's Ours to begin with but, If we're not serious in emphasizing that to the rest of the world, then there is no future for our nation -IMHO!!! :) :) :)

What do all of you think???

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 08-10-2007 05:57
Henry,

I've been looking at that for sometime now. Everyone and their brother wants it for reasons you've already mentioned. However; the number of people who are wanting it will be a problem. It's like money, it takes it to make it. Energy is no different. We will in a nearer future than most realize, be effectively out of fossil. The energy problem with fossil is not so much a problem as people would think either. There have been numerous options available for years and years. The biggest problem with oil is getting off of it. Oil is the economic crack cocaine of nations. From a realistic standpoint, the technology to be rid of it has been around a while, but the entire worlds economy thrives on it.
Just the act of making a true concentrated effort to get off of it will create wars. The countries who don't have much else but oil, are only something while they have it. The middle east doesn't have a whole lot of resources other than oil, anyone who thinks they will just stand around idle while their power is supplanted by a new energy technology is sadly mistaken. Iran for instance, does it really need nuclear power? Not really, but they will continue to get it, as well as advance centrifuges and other devices to enrich uranium in an effort to get the nuclear bomb. My opinion is, it is not so much a religious problem as it is a realization by Iran that within a couple of hundred years they will have nothing if they don't have the force to make the world take notice of them.

Then there are the oil giants, trillions of dollars worth. They will not just stand by while their respective companies are reduced to a garage sale of old nearly useless equipment.
These companies have the political clout and money to squeeze any given economy. Just look at the opportunistic hit we took after katrina.
they give us this song and dance about how much it cost them, yet year and year they hit new record profits. Usually a company that suffers a lose of key equipment and hardships gets a subsequent reduction in the profit margin, but not the oil companies. It went the other way with them.

Now we come to the H3. If that takes hold, there will be a race to claim the moon as you've already deduced. There will be the eventual wars over this. Wars in which a nuclear bomb is no longer essential in destroying a nation. Just use a large mag rail powered by one of these fusion plants on the moon to launch a few hundred tons (earth normal) object fast enough to escape L1 orbit and start sliding down the earths gravity well. Aim it right and the kinetic energy alone will be equal to a small nuclear bomb without the need to pollute the atmosphere with high level radionuclide's.

Anyone who thinks that can't happen should look at maglev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_train
or this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
The former can use linear motors (magnetic motors) to get the train moving. There are several examples already built around the world.
The later is solely designed to move an object to extremely high velocities departing kinetic energy to it.

What stands in the way of much larger versions? The copious amounts of electricity needed to run them. 

In comes H3 fusion reactors.

A mag shot from the moon powered by a H3 reactors and we are now in another arms race.

The Chinese government and our own have already looked into this possibility.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_RailGuns,,00.html
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel4/20/15929/00738373.pdf?arnumber=738373

Consider what would happen if you could launch one of these in L2 orbit without having to overcome the moons gravity.

All in all "the moon for sale" stands a good chance of becoming the obituary for earth.
Considering all factors, economic mitigation, technological deficiencies, and others, countries such as Iran and North Korea will be looking at the rest of the world with these developing technologies and thinking to themselves "we are screwed anyway, may as well make them bleed".
Look at Pyongyang,  Kim Jong-il is a perfect example of this mentality. Even though China threatened them they still tested a nuke, and multiple missiles.
Someone like that will pull the pin before going down in history with a whimper, despite the untold suffering it would create.

Now I am in full agreeance with space exploration, and in an ideal world those concerns would be a mute point.
In my opinion every nation in the world should have a piece of it. The risk of alienating one or the other country is just to high for continued good health of the planet.
Therefore it's my belief that no one country should have exclusive rights to any product of the moon. It should be treated like neutral ground and as owned by all nations of the world. Doing anything else is carving the head stone for the earths grave.

On the other hand, the moon if all governments of the world could come to an agreement, could be used as a springboard to points much farther out for areas that could be claimed by each nation without directly threatening earth itself. Utilizing the H3 in smaller reactors to power hall effect motors, ion motors, and especially a plasma thruster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodeless_plasma_thruster

In short, the supply of H3 on the moon could be used to gain a limitless supply of energy for all, not to mention elbow room and technological advancement of the human race.

It could be done in under 40 years with a concentrated multinational effort.

On one thing we agree, it's coming whether anyone wants it or not. We need to be smart about how it's handled. Otherwise it could kill us all.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 08-13-2007 18:33
Yeah my dad was part of the old star wars program and he told me about those mag rails.  Pretty crazy stuff right there!!!!  While reading the first post i was thinking to myself that this could be potenial for conflict, but i figured we're all a lot smarter then we were back in the old days so maybe the moon and H3 won't be as big of a problem as we think.  Maybe they can just have all the countries meet on the moon with a flag and have everyone run off and stake their own territory. lol  Oh and draw numbers for who goes first.  If it was only that easy.
Parent - - By thomasyyz (**) Date 08-17-2007 15:08 Edited 08-17-2007 15:20
yeah but I seen it before you so f*** off :), no seriously, what you are talking about has to be kept out of private hands. Think about it!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-17-2007 19:12
A little too much sangria there Thomasyyz??? Have some Tapas and cafe expresso :)
Btw, if you're near Africa, then you must be close to Gibraltar correct??? Or are you by the Canary Islands??? Finally, Yes! I thought about that but realistically speaking, it's inevitable.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By thomasyyz (**) Date 08-17-2007 20:15
henry I'm behaving myself very nicely, no need for "un cortado", maybe tomorrow I'm sorry if I came over a little too coarse, I'm working on it.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-17-2007 23:03 Edited 08-18-2007 02:27
Hey Thomasyyz! I envy you being in the land of my ancestors!!!I've been there a few times myself, and it's one of my favorite places to go :) Btw, did you get to try out the "Baccalao Frito" or "Ensalada de Baccalao" since you're by - well, where are you located in Spain??? No te precupes Caballero... Todos esta bien con nosotros!!! ;) Translation: Do'nt worry Cowboy... It's all good with us!!!

Oh, the words "Baccalao Frito" means the equivalent of Codfish hushpuppies ;) "Ensalada de Baccalao" simply means Codfish salad but, the vegetables used are quite different than the ones normally associated with traditional salads :)  Word of caution; Watch out for the "Aguardiente"!!! That stuff will creep up on you ;)

Translation: Water with TEETH!!! So remember moderation ;) ;) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By thomasyyz (**) Date 08-18-2007 12:52
I´m in tenerife, and yes all the Spanish cuisine is great except for the plates that sometimes include the head.
I have a good friend who is Gallego and when he comes back from visiting his family he normally brings "orujo" known around here as "parra" usually normal and flavoured with coffee, lemon or herbs. caballero means gentleman and vaquero is cowboy , "por aqui por lo menos".
If you want to try "bacalao" try "bacalao pil-pil" its a basque recipe and its really tasty, that coming from a guy who loves meat. heres a link ; http://blogs.ideal.es/index.php/cocina/2007/02/22/bacalao_al_pil_pil_veridico
if you want some help translating PM me.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-18-2007 18:55 Edited 08-18-2007 19:21
Maybe In Spain it's "Vaquero' but, here in the North eastern part of the Americas it's "Caballero" otherwise more appropraitely known as a Horseman!;)
In Argentina, "Gaucho" is a cowboy so, it all depends where you're at. ;)

Castellano spanish is'nt the only version of spanish spoken around the world so, no thanks! :)
Btw, I have heard of it but, unfortunately have'nt tried it yet but, have definitely eaten enough of bacalao aporreado, bacalao azcarate, bacalao a la vizcaina, bacalao a lo carolina villapol and finally bacalao a la asturiana ;) Have you tried escabeche yet? Another question I had for you is: are you a native spaniard? :)

Man has this thread veered off course!!! we went from Helium 3 to "Cowboys to sangria, tapas, cortadito's as they say in Cuba, bacalao dishes, escabeche and the difference of words used in various hispanic cultures!!! There must be some Helium 3 down in the deepest depths of the ocean's because, look at all the deep - well, you know what we're writing about ;) ;) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By thomasyyz (**) Date 08-18-2007 23:17
just got in, it is 11:30 pm right now, well in wikipidea they have an interesting read on helium 3 and include plans by Russia to start mining operations on the moon by 2020, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium-3
The YYZ on my name comes from the local airport where I was born and raised for a big part of my life, my wife is spanish but all my ancestors are from the northern part of Europe, had to learn the language on my own.
Escabeche is ok , but there are so many tipical plates that come to mind first , "escalibada" comes to mind and  there are at least a dozen more but I'll leave that for another day.
God with the baby just getting to sleep its a quarter after twelve and I'm going to call it a night. take it easy , Thomas.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 08-19-2007 14:46
Did you see the latest mythbusters? Going on a ride via helium ballons......

Neeatooo!!!!
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Helium Three!!!

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