Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Fabricator certification
- - By Dave Lowen1234 (*) Date 08-10-2007 06:18
This post is directed specifically to American welders, fabricators or inspectors.

In Canada, a prospective fabricator must do the following:

1. Apply for certification to weld from the Canadian Welding Bureau, (CWB). Equivalent to AWS.

2. Hire or retain a qualified welding engineer.

3. Have this engineer prepare procedures for ALL welds to be used in the shop.

4. Sign, stamp and submit all procedures to the CWB for approval.

5. Designate one or more shop personell to be welding supervisors who must pass CWB exams prior to qualification.

6. Have all welders tested for the welds they are required to do.

I was informed today that in the US, fabricators do not need to submit procedures for approval from the AWS because D1.1 has "prequalified procedures" in it. I find this difficult to believe. I have D1.1 but it is an older copy.

My two questions are:

1. Was I told the truth.

2. Are the 6 requirements listed above similar to AWS rules.

Thanks in advance,

Dave
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 08-10-2007 07:56
Dave, you were, in essence told the truth.  In the USA, we do not have a national Bureau (like the CWB) to perform these responsibilities.  Our fabricators must however, often submit their procedures to customers or depending on company programs, are  perhaps audited by AISC (or similar).  Of the six questions you asked, I could, in many cases say none of those are "required" by US fabricators.  Canada has a great program by the way, I've visited CWB on a few occasions and I was impressed.
Parent - By Mwccwi (***) Date 08-10-2007 11:35
I was informed today that in the US, fabricators do not need to submit procedures for approval from the AWS because D1.1 has "prequalified procedures" in it. I find this difficult to believe. I have D1.1 but it is an older copy.

"prequalified procedures" aren't in it, but the requirements for "prequalified procedures" are in it (ASNI/AWS D1.1) you still have to write the procedures meeting the requirements :)
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-10-2007 12:17 Edited 08-10-2007 12:21
Dave,

1.  I think in essence the misunderstanding is based on the notion that the AWS and CWB  are Equivalent.  They are not.  I believe the CWB is a government agency while the AWS is a private non profit organization.

1.a  The AWS provides no civil requirements whatsoever, whether in construction itelf or in the strucure of buissness and industry. AWS codes and standards are adopted voluntarily. And of course there are instances when government organizations or local municipalities or regions may choose to require AWS standards as part of their indepent policy. Some OSHA safety regulations come directly from AWS Z49.1 for example.

2.  In the U.S. what makes an engineer "qualified" pretty much depends on the particular employers self made job description.  This will be driven by competition.

3. From the AWS point of view (within the group of AWS certified personnel), only a Senior Certified Welding Inspector (SCWI) or a Certified Welding Engineer (CWEng) may be qualified to prepare/develop welding procedures. See AWS B5.1 2003 Table 1
http://files.aws.org/certification/docs/b5.1-03.pdf

4. The only procedures the AWS can be thought of approving are the procedures it sells.

5. Shop supervisors in the U.S. are not reqired to pass a certification exam. (The AWS has an exam for welding supervisor designation but it is not a government requirement) This government requirement is much akin to European Norms (EN's) or ISO specific Welding doccumentation.

6.  There are local and state requirements in some regions for welder qualification testing for specific types of work such as structural steel or pipe.. But these requirements are governed by state and local entities rather than national government.

Canada has a well thought out comprehensive system that makes for high quality and competence of personnel. It is also a hinderance for those folks who might want to work their way up the ladder from unskilled positions to management because those certifications are required (at great expense in formal training that cannot be substituted by experience in many cases) It is a model with deep socialist roots.

American Welding industry is driven by free market capitalisim. If a customer wants work fabricated to a specific code, and dictate that people building their stuff must  have certified personnel from top to bottom than contractors must invest in their personnel to compete for the business.

In my experience with the ISO and European Norms I've found alot of great stuff. Especially in the areas of ISO welder qualificaiton testing that AWS will undoubtedly move toward emulating because the notions are just that good.  On the other hand I see ISO and EN's as a University driven albatross sucking huge amounts of money that could be better invested in workers or shame on me for thinking this.. Profit.

There,  I bet thats more answer than you really wanted :)
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 08-10-2007 12:28
Very, very well said Lawrence!  An absolutely outstanding explanation!
Parent - By Mwccwi (***) Date 08-10-2007 13:47
Lawrence,
Explainations like the one you just posted are what keep me returning to this forum-maybe one day I'll be like you.
Keep up the good stuff and god bless you for you commited sharing.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-10-2007 14:09
Excellent Lawrence!

Al
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 08-10-2007 17:25
Does D1.1 set requirements anywhere for who can develop, review, or approve welding procedures, or is it just in B5.1?

D1.1 does have a framework for "prequalified" welding procedures that covers a lot of ground.  "Prequalified" means no qualification testing is involved, but it doesn't necessarily mean no one needs to approve it.  (AWS itself doesn't, but AWS isn't in the procedure approving business.)  In my world (bridge world plus associated components, D1.5 & D1.1), approval of procedures, whether prequalified or qualified by test is done by some representative of the Engineer of Record.  I don't know of any requirements on who that approver needs to be; we're the owners of the structure so it's up to us to decide who we want to assign that responsibility.  And because someone outside the fabricator is approving the procedure, that makes for less reliance on the qualifications of whoever on the fabricator side develops the procedure.  (I'm not saying that's good, I'm just saying it's so.)

Hg
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 08-10-2007 20:09
Lawrence

That was an excellent presentation. 
Parent - By Dave Lowen1234 (*) Date 08-12-2007 20:12
My thanks go out to all respondents.

Lawrence, your response was just what I was looking for, thank you for the education.

Our industry is also driven by free market capitalism. In the area of welding, the CWB has leveled the playing field somewhat wherein, everyone must comply.

We are on a very short leash in that regard but the standards and specs. do provide uniformity across the country.

regards,
Dave
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Fabricator certification

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill