outer space

By makeithot (***)

Date 08-12-2007 15:29

I would think that space would be the ultimate location for welding, no gravity and an oxygen free enviroment.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 08-12-2007 18:57

A couple of discussions from right here in the forum.

http://aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=68015;hl=Welding%20zero%20gravity#pid68015

http://aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=7953;hl=Welding%20zero%20gravity#pid7953

By 803056

Date 08-12-2007 19:20

Hello All;

I read the threads you listed Lawrence and you got me thinking.

Several years ago, no, let me rephrase that... many years ago, I was the third party inspector on a project involving the welding of zirconium. It seems to me they were welding in a vacuum chamber.

The first time I witness them welding, they were using a standard SMAW electrode holder with a 1/4 inch diameter tungsten. I was amazed; because I expected them to use GTAW to perform the welding that was to be done. I do not recollect that they back charged the chamber with argon or helium. I do remember the welder opening a bleed valve to introduce air into the chamber to "color" the welded trinkets he made for my kids. With the introduction of air in small amounts, the welder controlled the color, varying it from straw to blue with increased amounts of air. Had the chambers been back charged with inert gas, simply opening the bleed valve would not allow air to rush in unless the pressure was less than atmospheric.

Now you have me thinking. Electron beam welding is performed in a vacuum, the better the vacuum the better the outcome, but very high voltages are used to accelerate the electrons.

Very interesting.

Best regards - Al

By makeithot (***)

Date 08-12-2007 22:46

Thanks Lawrence, That makes for interesting reading. Having been involved in under water wet and hyberbaric welding for years it has always been a curiosity as to how welding performed in space. without gravity etc.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 08-12-2007 21:13

In the 1990s AWS had a TFPS (The For Profit Subsidiary), which sold the Russian hand held Electron Beam Gun for welding in Space. There was an article in the Welding Journal about the process. As for TIG welding in vacuum, you have no gas to ionize, so TIG Welding, such as we are familiar with in Earths atmosphere doesn't exist. I have tried TIG welding without Gas in a Bell Jar in a vacuum, and while I could strike and briefly maintain an arc, I could not do what I wanted to do. The person who let me use the vacuum equipment, made Vacuum Deposition equipment for Coating operations. It was possible to boil the gold and magnesium fluoride mixtures into a coating for lenses, using an arc drawn across a Tungsten - target mix, he largely used Bent Beam electron beam for precision melting and vaporizing of the coating material. One thing you have to worry about is X-Rays.

By darren

Date 08-13-2007 05:05

it seems that trying to accomplish an arc in space has too many hurdles to over come, it would seem to be simpler to find the emf of a particular substance
and focus a wave(micro, radio, light, whatever would be the relevant frequency or a combination ) and "shake" the particles to create a molecular friction in the hopes of generating enough heat to cause fusion. people like stephan lawrence henry bill js55 cwi?? redgoose and many many others would be able to tell you whether it is at all plausible. i know that something similar is used in welding plastics , it also uses a reactive agent that is included in the weld, it of course is sonic and not quantic.(probably the wrong word there)
it may require two or more wave sources and also require that the waves are set up as to cause the waves to become additive or out of phase or something like they use in cancer therapy or the "carving" of glass like in those trinkets of glass blocks with three dimensional images imprinted within them using the multi focus of i believe it is laser, that they sell in the local malls.
it would seem that sub atomic particles, may have there uses, as electrons have already proven to have been, maybe a proton beam or a neutron beam would be able to be employed, at least use something that is inherent in "space" , use a photo array and use the constituents of light or dark matter if we ever figure that one out. but a barbaric old earth arc seems like it is a little inside of the box thinking for such a new a and unique situation. although science keeps trying to take the internal combustion engine into space and heretofore been unable to harness the atomic/subatomic energy systems for practical space travel.
just the ramblings of an very blue collar slightly redneck terresterialite. but very interesting topic for conjecture. and i will probably be long dead before there is any proof that it cannot be done this way.
never one to miss an opportunity to prove myself the fool.
darren

By CWI555

Date 08-13-2007 07:48

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_engine

The internal combustion question has long since been answered as well. Ion engines in varying forms have already been used and proven.
It's not science fiction any more.

By darren

Date 08-13-2007 21:34

i am aware of the ion propulsion method but as i stated it does not take us into space it only has enough thrust to operate in near zero gravity. it would work in conjunction with an earth's gravity escape system similar to the bullet train technology but as it stands now we can only get of this rock with molecular bond reassignment and have not been able to use atomic or subatomic energy systems.
darren

By CWI555

Date 08-14-2007 04:19

True, but it's one step at a time. The technology is available for the rail shot. It's an energy hog and would be exceptionally expensive. the ion method is getting more and more efficient btw.

By CWI555

Date 08-13-2007 07:38 Edited 08-13-2007 07:42

NASA has already broached the subject and with a very large budget have conducted test in C130's and C141's. Welding in or out of a vacuum has long since been worked out. Others have commented on solutions for welding in vacuum, laser and electron beam lead the pack to my knowledge. EBW for instance has been around since 1958 so it's not exactly a new idea.
NASA is not the only game in town for this either. In Europe we have ESA, in India we have ISRO (who is among the race for the moon with Chandrayaan-1), Japan of course has the NAL agency, CNSA in china, Of course the Russians with RFSA, the UK with BNSC, AEB for Brazil, just to name a few. There are dozens of agencies around the globe that have gotten into the game. The billion dollar club is NASA with 16, ESA with a little under 3.7, CNES 2.2, JAXA with about the same as CNES, and Germany (DLR) rounding out the top budgets with a little over a billion. However; having money doesn't necessarily mean a good program.
The most efficient programs are the private ones such as scaled composites. These private organizations are the real sleepers in the lot. The large government ones have a nasty habit of wasting lots and lots of money. Of the private ones, scaled composites are the first out of the gate to make space flight, but they are only the tip of the iceberg.

Based on what I've seen personally, and what I've been able to turn up in research, whether or not welding in space is possible, is a mute point. It's already been done by the Russians, and NASA and the others are not far behind.

The devil is in the application. future spacecraft are leaning heavily towards composites. Stations will need metals, and will have to be made in orbit or the moon. One of the things discovered on the moon is that it's surface is primarily metal oxides based on the findings of the Apollo program. Getting started will be rough, It's just not economically feasable to ship and entire station from here to the moon, especially when you can build it there.

I believe the first couple of stations will be from here to start with, but thats it. Beyond that metals will be harvested on the moon where there are no environmental concerns and power to smelt and process it would be cheap via fusion and solar power sources.

What then is the process to be used? Using a process that requires any form of gas is going to be problematic. If a process exist that does not require a sheilding gas or a gas to kickstart the arc, that concern goes away.

One thing that is for sure, Every country that is capable, is jumping into the moon race, with the USA, EU, China, and others, not to mention the privateers jumping in, between them, the thought of how they are going to put it all together has already been made, and again, based on my research, it's leaning towards EBW, and LBW.

Thats not to say that other means of welding cannot be used. Friction stir welding is being considered be several groups as well.
In summary it's not a question of "if", "if" has long since been put to bed. It's which one will take precedence in the long haul.

My two cents worth,
Gerald

By js55

Date 08-13-2007 13:49

Though certain advantages may come to the fore, the inherently impractical characteristics of 'high tech' welding processes that have had such difficulty replacing 'lower tech' fusion welding processes here on earth, may not find any difference just becasue we are talking about space. We have a tendency to think high tech when we think of space, but why? Those inherent difficulties of 'high tech' processes will still exist there. For example, with friction stir welding has found little application on materials with inherent stiffness such as carbon steels, not that they aren't applied there on occasion. They are very applicable to aluminums, and have been used very successfully there. The 'probes' wear out too quickly on stiffer materials. This certainly wouldn't be any different in space. In fact, it would be even more aggravated since the extremely low temperature environment (perhaps even a bigger problem than the vacuum-turning all shielding gases to liquids even if a positive flow could be achieved) would make even aluminums stiffer.
I myself am not convinced that the predominant variables in space, specifically low temperture and vacuum, necessarily eliminate the advantages of the tremendously successful 'low tech' fusion welding processes.
And the economics of these processes will get even a bigger boost when space operations are taken over by competing corporations as opposed to the relatively unlimited humungous government budgets.

By CWI555

Date 08-13-2007 14:36

Low temperature will not be a factor unless your on the dark side of a celestial body. There is a reason the shuttle orbits with the bay doors open. It's to dissipate heat.
Carbon steels are of very little use in these applications as well. I believe history will bear out the truth of this. Thinking inside the box won't work either, I am not convinced
standard low tech methods will be sufficient.
There is one thing we agree on, The large government projects will never match the efficiency of competing corporations.

By js55

Date 08-13-2007 15:17

Mornin Gerald,
I just used CS to make the point about stiffness with friction stir, not as a viable material for space. And even though aluminums, etc. do not demonstrate a precipitous ductile to brittle with decreasing temps, they do demonstrate considerably reduced ductility (as do many of the traditional aerospace materials) in many instances which is of course related to stiffness, admittedly a very un-metallurgical term.
And I do believe that maintaining heat in a welding process can certainly be a problem with ambient temps at near absolute 0. What a heat sink!! Imagine the difficulty of maintaining welding energy on a high thermal conductivity material when ambient is near 0. Friction stir is certainly an alternative to consideration of this problem, but it has its own difficulties as mentioned.
And I would agree thinking outside the box is necessary, especially considering shielding gases now as liquids. But I don't believe thinking outside the box is synonymous with a mass migration away from fusion processes.
As another alternative, who says that all space welding is to be done in total external ambience. It may just as easily be solved by the rapid construction of 'environment structures' (large ones for prefab assemblies-small ones at tie ins) which eliminate the problem of temp and vacuum at a much cheaper cost than trying to apply 'Star Trek' welding methods 'outside'. This idea is very similar to the crude 'sheds' we used while welding at the geothermals of the China Lake NWC in freezing temps and blistering winds. Earth based thinking, space solutions. Though its not a sexy or capable of garnering huge sums of research money.
And once again relegating the sexy high techs to limited application as they are here now on earth.

By js55

Date 08-13-2007 15:34

One other quick point philosophically. When EVERYONE is looking at high tech, sophisticated, expensive, wazoo technologies (especially those with a financial incentive to do so), sometimes going back to earlier ideas and technologies and perhaps rethinking them IS thinking outside the box.

By CWI555

Date 08-13-2007 19:55

Something that bears saying again. Absolute zero or near it is not absolutely the case for orbital or lunar welding. The near vacuum of space is also a very good insulator. (picture a thermos bottle). The shuttle flys with it bay doors open to radiate the heat out, which is problematic due to the lack of any real density of surrounding gases. which strikes upon another problem. Heat convection. Weld a piece of pipe, where and how does the heat from the weld get dissipated? Just simply sticking into a vacuum won't work, and unless your on the dark side of the moon, or in the shadow of the earth, it will not only retain the heat for some time, it may in fact add to it. If space was all absolute zero, none of us would be here. Radiant heat/radiation from the sun has a very large effect on this. Take Mercury for example. It has no atmosphere, it's the closest planet to the sun, yet one side of it is colder than most places in the solar system, while the other side of it is far hotter. It does not have a rotation to speak of. It keeps the same face to the sun for the most part.
Using Venus as an example, it does have an atmosphere, and a rotation, and due to it's atmospheric makeup, it's surface temps are in excess of 800f. This is due to the entrapment of green house gases, and an atmosphere that is 92 times denser than that of earth.

In short, the idea that all of space is absolute 0 or even near it has long since been proven scientifically inaccurate. Couple that with the insulating properties of a vacuum, heat convection becomes a real problem for the fusion processes.

By js55

Date 08-13-2007 20:26

Gerald,
Now you have me confused. How is the principle of the bay doors being open to cool the shuttle work if the vacuum of space is such a good insulator? I'm not arguing. I'm just not seeing the difference between a heat sink on welding material and the shuttle heat sink.

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 08-14-2007 03:07

Much of the sky radiates at a very low temperature so if you open the doors and point the opening toward a cold part of the sky you will absorb less heat than you radiate and get cooler. On the other hand if you point the opening toward something warm like the earth or the sun you will absorb more than you radiate and get warmer. Convection is not a factor since there is essentially no working fluid for it to exist in. The heat moves as photons, mostly at infrared wavelengths. If you put a small container of water at the focus of a parabolic reflector and keep the reflector pointed at a cold patch of sky you can freeze the water on a rather warm night. (Statement from a source I trust, never tried this myself).
Bill

By CWI555

Date 08-14-2007 05:04

Can't say as I've ever heard that one before. I don't supose the source you speak of explained the mechanism did they?

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 08-15-2007 04:55

If I remember correctly this was in Scientific American. The reflector insures that when the object at it's focus emits a photon that it will be sent off into the dark sky and the cold spot in the sky insures that there will be very few incoming photons. Off axis photons that hit the reflector will miss the focus and if the reflector is reasonably deep the object will have a direct view of only a some of the sky.
Bill

By ross

Date 08-15-2007 19:13

I have a patent pending on a beer can that uses this technology. Need some investors and testers.

By ross

Date 08-15-2007 19:27

If the investors could send beer to the testers, I would greatly appreciate it.

By CWI555

Date 08-16-2007 01:58

Sounds like kirchhoff. Think I'll be running that experiment just for giggles.

By CWI555

Date 08-14-2007 04:10 Edited 08-14-2007 04:13

http://science.howstuffworks.com/space-shuttle3.htm
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts109_update_020311.html
http://www.nasaexplores.com/show2_912a.php?id=04-046&gl=912

I don't take it as an argument, it's a good question.
Without the presence of solar radiation, things get cold fast. Yes a vacuum is an insulator, but as anyone who carries around a thermos full of coffee for several hours knows, it's not a perfect insulator. It will eventually radiate it's heat out. On the ground, weld cooling rates are greatly enhanced by the atmosphere, without that atmosphere, it will take considerably longer. I think an analogy can be drawn between quenching steel and air cooling steel. quenching (generally speaking only) will result in more marstenite formation, whereas air cooling will result in more pearlite. Cooling fast vs. cooling slow. Denser medium (water) vs. less dense medium (air)

As for the shuttle, if the bay doors didn't open, the shuttle would be making a fast trip back to earth, as it would rapidly lose systems to overheating. It all depends on if your in the shadow of any given planet or any other object that provides a mask from the suns energy. Fly something behind the moon long enough, and it's going to get very very cold.
put it on the sun ward side, it's going to need heavy duty cooling systems.

The shuttle uses freon cooling systems in the bay doors to help cool it.

If you take a given piece of metal and park in an orbit that is constantly in sunlight, it's going to get very warm, and without any means of cooling it (atmospheric convection) it will retain that heat for a considerably longer time. Adding more heat via a welding process without that convection will keep it hot for a good while.

So goes the theory.

A practical application of this is vacuum flask cooking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_flask_cooking

By Sourdough (****)

Date 08-13-2007 17:28

I welded in outerspace a couple times..........back in my lsd days!

By darren

Date 08-13-2007 21:38

maybe a great big magnifying lens like when we were kids and used to burn paper and bugs. the process
would have to have a very large oops factor built in to it

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 08-14-2007 06:51

Ok I will go out and weld in space if the money is right....but they better have some porta potties out there cause I am not crapping my pants like some astronaut!!! Secondly do I get a bullganger to put all my chipped flux in a baggie or somthing?? I am not taking no lawsuit when my flux rips thru the cockpit of some french le' spacepod at 20,000 mph. I think this maybe one job when NOBODY gripes about being tied off with a safety line. Well in some ways it is good ....I don't have to listen to Sourdoughs wildcat grinding out crap all day (lol I could not resist that one) cause there is no sound in space. Everyone can listen to there own radio and nobody cares!!!!!! Talk about being on the road...this is a new definition....no more dragging up and going home. Do we get electron beam guns instead of wire machines>? maybe laser welders yea...like paintball except a lot more permanent. Hmmmmm looks wide open to me fellas lets go make some real cash!

ok too many beers I am done
Tommy

By Milton Gravitt (***)

Date 08-15-2007 00:42

I've enjoyed reading ever ones post and there is a lot more material to read.

By swnorris (****)

Date 08-15-2007 16:37

When NASA first started sending up astronauts, they quickly discovered that ballpoint pens would not work in zero gravity. To combat this problem, NASA scientists spent a decade and $12 billion developing a pen that writes in zero gravity, upside down, underwater, on almost any surface including glass and at temperatures ranging from below freezing to over 300C. The Russians used a pencil.

By ross

Date 08-15-2007 19:06 Edited 08-15-2007 20:04

Ironically it's hard NOT to weld in space. Take very clean metal, put it in a vacuum, apply pressure (via takeoff inertia), and the pieces want to fuse. Cold welding in transit was blamed for a Mars probe not unfolding correctly.
See http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1995ESASP.374..293M

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 08-16-2007 03:32

Good point, it's not the weld that is problematic, just the arc.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-16-2007 04:09

Speaking of outer space...
"WARNING - WARNING!!! INTRUDER ALERT!!! INTRUDER ALERT!!!" :) :) :)
Do any of you remember that show????

Respectfully,
Henry

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 08-16-2007 05:46

DANGER!!! Will Robenson DANGER!!

By CWI555

Date 08-17-2007 05:24

For 12 billion you would expect a new space craft. I'd like to see one of those 12 Billion dollar pens.

By Stephan (***)

Date 08-16-2007 09:49

Milton,

I as well have enjoyed reading every single sentence of this thread, been initiated by you. Thanks therefore!

I mean a wide variety of "terrestrial" welding experts but also "universal welders" :-) opinions and foods for thoughts has been provided and thus everything has been said on this topic.

Since I have received an e-mail briefly ago, coming from the IIW Chairman of Commission IV (Power Beam Processes), Mr. Ernest Levert, who is with the Company "Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control", working there as a Senior Staff Manufacturing Engineer, I would like to attach what he has passed on to the members or attendees respectively, of the IIW Commission mentioned above.

The two pictures he has sent, show the latest photos of the ISS Space Station and are absolutely impressive from my personal point of view. He has stated the following sentences in his mail (Quote):

"Here's the two of the latest Space Station photos.

Hope you can put them to good use."

Since these pictures are matching greatly with your topic and the ISS is a global human beings project (of course mainly headed by the United States of America) I decided to pass them on to the AWS Forum.

Well, I have considered if there could eventually exist some reasons, speaking against that I would like to pass on those great photos to all of you, but then I have decided that there is probably no better way to use them as to do so and thus to meet Ernest's hope.

I again truly hope that you, the AWS Site Editors and of course Ernest Levert may agree with me...

Best regards,
Stephan

Attachment: OrbiteroverblueISS015E11697.jpg (0B)

Attachment: s117e08041_Large.jpg (0B)

By Milton Gravitt (***)

Date 08-16-2007 23:36

Hi Stephan the pictures are very impressive it looks like you can reach out and touch the Space Shuttle and the Space Station. Thank you.
Looking at the Space Shuttle pictures and the information that Gerald had attach to his post I know why the cargo bay doors are open.
Yes Henry I to like LOST IN SPACE.
Thanks to every one who made a post.

Milton

By darren

Date 08-17-2007 06:37

when i look at those photos i really am overwhelmed by the fact that in spite of all our shortcomings as a species, look what we are achieving, the future is only bound by our imagination. "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?" Robert Browning
darren
p.s. doesn't smaw make its own atmosphere?

By CWI555

Date 08-17-2007 15:36

I doubt the traditional shielding for "s"maw would be needed.

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 08-18-2007 04:42

A few weeks ago when discussing this, We cameup with the problem of not having anything to ionize being a limiting factor in establishing an arc.

By darren

Date 08-18-2007 08:15

again wouldn't smaw work in that it would provide an ionizable gaseous atmosphere, given the correct flux constituents.
darren

By CWI555

Date 08-18-2007 08:37

You would first have to have the arc to get the ionizable gas via burning the flux. I suppose there would be some way around it, but I can't really think of one.

By Stephan (***)

Date 08-18-2007 22:34

darren,

extraordinary good consideration - as far as I may be allowed to say that...

"Normally" SMAW should be able to provide all constituents necessary for enabling an arc.

At least as far the arc could be ignited firstly it should normally work when one could perform a proper droplet detachment and transition.

But, hmmm...

I am sorry, for a 100% safe predication one should carry out a comprehensive practical trial... :-)

Perhaps Sourdough and Tommy could open their treasure chest and share a bit of their "outer space welding" experience with us terrestrians?

:-):-):-)

My best regards to you and all of the others!
Stephan

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 08-19-2007 02:04

all I can tell ya is ya got to crank it up and keep that rod REAL REAL CLOSE!!! Got a nice bottle of mezcal maybe before the nights over I shall crank up the anti gravity machine I built for a science project and put it inside my absolute -5000 psi vac chamber and try it out in the garage. If your lights dim don't worry the start up current on this thing is ridiculous. The only worry I got is that anti gravity thingy causes a space/time funnel on occasion.....If I end up in the sixties please tell my family I love them and it was all for science.

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 08-19-2007 05:16

This is ground controll to Major Tom...

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 08-19-2007 06:30

All in all tho I have no base to comment on the true singularties and dependers of actually conducting welding in space it is an exciting prospect and I am sure it will be developed..thouroghly...After all we certainly have not gotten close to closing it as a trade or technology on terra firma, its just too usefull. The mescal is great btw been awhile.

I look at things like 10 billion dollar pens and think as everyone would...what a friggen waste people are starving here.   BUT At the same time you would not have auto welding lenses, and many other conveiniant and usefull technologies if it were not for the space program in the USA. Commercial manufacturing would not have ever spent the money to recruit the talent and spent the time for all that R&D. I cannot wait untill the shuttle tiles are avaliable as a spray coating...unbelivable applications there alone. A lot of money may have been wasted on chasing little animals thru the forest so to speak but I can tell you we got our moneys worth from the shuttles already....considering how much of that technology was developed on the fly and unproven. The space program in itself is a worthwhile endeavor period...even if it gets a little super geeky...too many positives in our everyday lives develop from it.

JUST WISHING (but think about it): how many of you would turn down an opportunity to go burn a joint on the space station even if it paid $0.00 I would go jeez you only live once man and to say you were able to look down on the earth and see the stars sans atmosphere.....you bet I am there. One day if we don't kill ourselves with useless B*kd^&%$it geo-political-economic crap...our kids will be "burning space rods" in orbit around the Moon, Mars wherever we can go and gain somthing. I can here it now yep back in the old days they chipped there flux just like pecking a rock carving in a cave with a rock.   I am sure when its all said and done welding will still be a viable and very neccessary trade to get it done in space.

Just my little two coppers enjoying this thread great deal btw.
Tommy

By Stephan (***)

Date 08-19-2007 07:53

Hey Tommy,

great posts both this and the previous one!

Really well said and yes, truly capable for being the honorable summary of this great thread!

By the way I guess to have learned two additional final things by reading your last posts:

1. I mean to have learned where the origin of Kix' motto: "Crank her up and burner in der!" has been founded. :-)

2. It doesn't matter from which country you may come. I guess all Human Beings have the same hopes since I have read (quote):

"One day if we don't kill ourselves with useless B*kd^&%$it geo-political-economic crap...our kids will be "burning space rods" in orbit around the Moon, Mars wherever we can go and gain somthing."

This should be worth to praying and working for...

Best to you,
Stephan

P.S. If something would go wrong anytime with the «anti gravity thing» and you would end up in the sixties, I am 100% sure, all the great fellows here would find a way to "beam" you back to your family and of course... to the forum! :-)