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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Backing ring, root pass, x-ray
- - By swsweld (****) Date 08-15-2007 22:36
Very close to starting U G pipe job using backing rings. Usually we do open butt w/6010 & 7018 fill & cap.
Sometimes GTAW.
I know that we can use 6010 or 7018 for this job. ASME B31.1. Pipe is CS 2 1/5" thru 20" sch 40 
Nothing unusual or fancy about this. My question is has anyone out there done xray jobs with backing rings using 6010 for the root pass?
Any input on the best rod or technique is appreciated.
All of our joints are pipe to pipe. All fittings are welded at factory. Should get good fits.
Very familiar with xray and welding just have never had the opportunity to use backing rings on pipe with xray and don't want to under estimate it just because it SHOULD be easier than open butt.
Thanks,
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 08-16-2007 01:36
Tim,
I have never done pipes with backing rings but have a lot of experience with RTing plates with backing strips and you have to have a near perfect fit-up between plate and backing plate or slag finds its way in to the gaps and makes it a nightmare to interpret,
Good luck,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 08-16-2007 02:34
Thanks Shane. When I say I am familiar with xray I mean as a welder and know what to try to avoid to pass a shot. I was wondering how difficult it would be to interpret the film w/backing rings. That is sort of the reason for the inquiry on best choice of rod to use on the root pass. 7018 has alot of slag to deal with on a backing ring. 6010 would be less of a fight with slag. Our guys are occasionally burning through practicing trying to run hot enough to get the root in and to not trap slag.
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 08-16-2007 09:33
Why the backing rings?
darren
Parent - By swsweld (****) Date 08-16-2007 22:45
Army Corp of Engineers specifcations require it. A few years ago they were not allowed. Everything open butt. I sent an RFI to be sure and the response confirmed they do want backing rings.

Medium tempurature hot water lines 250F. The only reason I could determine for using rings were to keep slag, splatter and dirt out of the pipes. It is an underground pipe system.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 08-16-2007 19:46
It's not hard to interpret the film with backing rings. That is assuming the interpreter has experience in it.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 08-16-2007 20:18
I wouldn't mess with 6010 on backing rings. Just go straight to 7018.
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 08-16-2007 22:51 Edited 08-16-2007 23:04
I spoke with a semi retired NDE tech a few months ago and he agreed with you Gerald that the interpretation was not a problem.

This guy has done UT on alot of my moment welds but don't know if he has actually RT experience on rings and pipe.
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 08-17-2007 00:24
I guess I am confused as to what a backing ring is. Pardon my ignorance but, what is it, and what purpose does it serve?
Parent - By Mwccwi (***) Date 08-17-2007 02:15
not selling or advocating just showing an example- backing rings are the same as backin plate for groove weld in pipe and tubing applications -not good in all place like if you have concerns of impeding flow  they might be objectionable but the are usefull for alignment and some have tab for root spacers on'em.
I googled to find a picture
http://www.imperialweldringcorp.com/plain_standard_weld_ring.htm
Parent - By swsweld (****) Date 08-17-2007 02:57
Backing rings are pre formed metal rings that fit to the inside of the pipe. They can have a spacer pin for gap spacing.

Approx. 1/8" thk, 1" wide, gap pin 3/16"

pin is knocked off with hammer after tacking.

The main purpose is to keep slag, splatter and metal out of the pipe.

They actually take less skill to use rings for the root pass but you have to fight the slag. Not a big fan of the slag. Still gotta shoot good.

Not to worry Sourdough I'm often confused after reading some of the pipeliner lingo :)

http://www.robvon.com for more info.
Parent - - By makeithot (***) Date 08-17-2007 04:03
Have used the backing rings on 12" pipe with the spacer pins and they worked great . this project was for a penstock system down stream pressure was 450psi all xrays were good. 2800 ft of pipe. once the pipe was fit we welded the root with 7018-3/32 hot as you can handle it I was running at 110 amps. then fill and cap with 1/8"-7018. In that particular instance it was all good.
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 08-18-2007 01:16
Made our first fit today with the preinsulated underground pipe 14" sch 40 and the variance of the I D was pretty bad. I've seen worse but this is an xray job. One side of the b. ring fits OK but sections on the other side is 1/8 to 3/16 gap. Not what I was hoping for.

We have prefabbed pipe in the shop for a couple of weeks welding fittings to pipe with very little trouble or gaps. This pipe is bare pipe from a different vendor.

I don't know what the tolerance is for out of roundness. I spoke with the manufacturers rep and he doesn't have a clue.

We didn't go with the cheapest price either. The only way I know to fix the egg shape is to buy a heavy duty Mathey-Dearman or equal and reform with heat and pressure from the clamp.

Two questions;
1.) with the above mentioned fit up, wouldn't the film be difficult to read? Like severe hi-lo. The slag trapped between the pipe I D and the backing ring shouldn't be a problem should it?
2.) Anybody know the acceptable out of round tolerence? It's B31.1. I've got the book & will begin to look but honestly do not know it that is in there.
That might be three questions.

If it's unacceptable I might be able to backcharge the supplier for the extra work and or bad RTs if we get them.

I'm not big on backcharges but we are paying for round pipe!
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 08-18-2007 16:23
i believe that astm a53 limits it to + or - 1% of od varience. if that helps
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 08-19-2007 14:31
I see low/high in large pipe a lot. Spend alot of time splitting the difference as best as I can..........
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 08-21-2007 05:36 Edited 08-22-2007 03:39
( I don't know the specific specification of the pipe your using so I'll speak in general terms, please ignore this information if you already know it ).
Piping specs usually consist of a specific specification with data that only applies to that specification such as ASTM 312, and then a general specification such as ASTM A999.
Specifics on the pipe would be needed to pin down the answer in regards to out of round tolerance.
Usually the requirements for ovality will be found in the referenced general spec. However; when that pipe comes out of the manufacture, they typically only measure the ends for ovality as it's not very practical to do so for the entire length. It's also very hard to sell ovality concerns after you've cut it. If your going to push that issue, then you will likely have to do it before you make any cuts.
As for reading the film:
B31.1 (only have 99 version so please verify current status) will kick back to section V, 04:Section V article 2 and the referenced documents therein will tell you the following:

T233.1 image quality indicator design/SE 1025 hole type and SE 747 wire type

T282.1 and .2 define density requirements. This has specific application to your needs. Some RT companies screw up this part as they miss this particular requirement.
T282.1 gives the general density requirements dependant on a few variables its typically between 2.0 and 4.0 transmitted.
T282.2 states +15 or - 30 percent variation. Herein is the typical screw up if there is one. This percentage not only applies to hole type IQI but also the wire type.
For the wire type, density is as measure adjacent to the required wire.
Depending on the temperature service reinforcement is allowed up to 3/16" for nominal wall thickness .438" (for 14" sch 40).
This becomes important as using a little reinforcement kicks you up to a B set and a required wire 7. The little bit of difference isn't going to mean a hell of a lot for shot time or anything else. (Use fastest film you can and still see the required wire. This also is another reason for a 6 vs a 7 wire., it gives you a little more latitude which is needed with hilo.)

Putting that together, the wire will be source side over the weld, and when you run into the varying densities inherent in hi lo, the wire will cover all density ranges
(assuming within 2.0 and 4.0).

Having the film quality meeting the code you go to interpretation. Assuming the weld is within code otherwise, the hilo can be read. the biggest problem there can be found in inexperienced interpreters. The sharp transition in density's can make a line appear where there is none. (slang term; Mock banding)
For hi lo conditions this is often misinterpreted as either root LOF or Lack of pen. To assess whether or not it's real, simply laying an opaque object such as a blacked piece of scrap film with a straight line just under the perceived line will make it go away. If it is real it will remain. Many, many moons ago (20 years) when the ink wasn't dry on the new LII cert, I feel into that trap and was shown the errors of my ways. After that, it's been no problem. It comes down to experience. For me, as well as any experienced interpreter, reading that film should be no problem, therefore bad RT's should never come into the picture unless its an actual flaw created by welding.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 08-19-2007 00:08
Hey Tim
I have done thousands of 6010 (5P) welds with rings many of which were RT to API1104. I don'T recall any RT techs complaining about having a ring in the weld, we made sure to tell them prior to test so they could allow for the additional thickness.  The style ring was called a "wedge" because it had a wedge rolled into the ring instead of pins for spacing.They were used on 3,4&6" pipe with a .188 wall. and up to 12" with .250 wall. The reason was for easy alingment and help "Chill" the weld pool on the thin wall pipe. All welding was done down hill. On larger diameter we would tack the ring to the inside or on the bevel so as to minimize deforming the ring during fit up. I'm thinking this could be part of your out of round problem (deformed ring). As far as 6010 on the root do you have a downhill proceedure you can use?  We would run a 1/8 or even 5/532 on the root using a stepping or whipping technique like is done on the downhill hot pass. then went to 3/16 for fill and cap down to 6". The rings you have will probibly only carry the heat of a 1/8. Pay close attention to the land if its more then 1/16 you may want to grind it down because this is where IP will show with a ring. You may also want to cut back on the gap should you go up hill (in 32 years of this I still can't figure out why 6010 is run up hill!@#$%) If you have access to alignment clamps they would also help. Pipeline Supply Co. in Middlesex New Jersey has them for rent.  The ratchet type works great to remove high/low and will take care of out of round on the larger schd 40 stuff.
Also I would try again with the Army on the ring requirement. Sometimes if you explain that there are some developing issues with the current practice while explaining that youv'e done recent jobs without rings and had good success they may make a change.
I've been on an UG (steam, hot water, chill water) project for the last year doing B31.1- 100% RT we are doing open root 6010 down hill all the way out. The customer is calling everything B31.1, even the chill water! SOOO they are RT everything. Is the Army do this as well?
Thermacore and Revanco have been the suppliers for this project and of course the pipe isn't made at home but it has been round. The only complaint I had about the pre-engineered pipe from the one company was they cut it while the pipe was on rollers which in-turn gave a "S" bevel which gives uneven gappage.

Hope this helps- Ted

Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 08-19-2007 03:50
Thanks Ted,
In the past when we had hi-lo this bad we would increase the gap a little and make the transition (blend) the gap with 6010 uphill or GTAW and that would work to get past the root pass. Our procedure is for uphill. If there is a prequalified procedure for 6010 downhill I would consider that as an option. I could test the welders in house but might be to late to go through the PQR process.

We fit the ring to the first pipe and get a good tight fit there. We are having a problem when we bring the second pipe in to fit, that is where the egg is exposed. We do have cage type clamps for 20" to 3". They work great for hi-lo for open butt. They are not designed to fix egg shape.

We use the same supplier from Texas as you mentioned. All products on these projects are supposed to be domestic. They do quality work. I used a different vendor a few years ago and their quality was awful. They would butt the joints up metal to metal on the fittings. No root penetration. 100% UT for our field welds. Severe egg shape pipe, insulation not full, factory bevels often hand cut by a seeing impaired person (PC), I could list many more.

The problem as I see it is in the areas of egg shape we have a tight fit on the one pipe but the ring is up to 1/4" from contacting the the second pipe. I'm sure anyone that is familiar with rings can visualize the problem there.

The ACOE will probably insist on using the rings since the specs say shall. Maybe we just got a bad pipe or two since we have only fit two joints up Friday. I expect there will be more.

I think we will be fine with 3/32 7018 if the pipe ends are round. I hate to bring alot of attention to us this early in the job. Like to keep a low profile. If the situation doesn't improve quickly I will involve everyone.
Failing RT because of egg shape pipe will make our company look bad if I do not inform the COE and site QC.

In our neck of the woods the COE uses PVC for the chill water pipes. Steel for HW & steam. We xray 10% but it can go to 100% if we have problems. We bid the job for 10%. It is very important we do not go to 100%. I have done a few jobs on base with very good success and the same COE are over these two projects we are starting. I hope good reputation will help if things get ugly.

We have a few hundred larger diameter pipes and several hundred smaller size pipes. The roundness on the smaller sizes are usually good. If Hogans account for out of round is right I think 3/16" is the max tolerance.

I'm not near panic mode at all but in the past was not on this forum and I appreciate all the input from everyone.
Parent - By ZCat (***) Date 08-19-2007 04:03
I took a test this year on heavy wall 6", Dualshield all the way out. I gotta say, I was sweating that root pass, but it turned out OK. First time I ever tried welding with a backing ring. I'm not real experienced with them, but as long as the two root faces are tied in, you should be alright.
You could always go with a TIG root! haha
Parent - By jonesy70 (*) Date 08-19-2007 04:30
I have used rings on tubes but never on pipe...they are a very usefull tool, especially with rookie welders...they help to make good penitration with the added prevention restricting burn threw.  I have always tacked with 6010 then welded out with 7018.  The advice that has been made in this post is very good and sound!!
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 08-19-2007 11:49
Tim, back in the spring I put my Classic II in moth balls and am now using a Miller Trailblazer 302. I have a FTC 14 taped to the holder and am able to adjust my heat with my index finger as I'm welding. Something like this would help with a bad fit- Ted
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 08-21-2007 01:23
Do you really like the 302 that good? I've got a few Trailblazer 250s (got a few hours on them)and Trailblazer Pro 350. Was going to buy a few more welders for this project. Was leaning towards SA-200 but have never welded with one but with all the talk on the forum by the pipeliners they must be good. But we are not doing open root on these jobs and would prefer to buy new unless got a really good deal on a used SA-200.
Tested a guy today that has a 302 & he really liked it. I've got a couple of FTC 14 too. We wired up a Dynasty 200 to the nearest power panel at the nearest building and it ran great. Cheaper too.

BTW the pipe ends were much better today. Still some egg but nothing like last weeks fits.

Thanks for all the help everyone.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-21-2007 02:23
I know 2 guys that have the older 301 and swear by them. One guy does all types of pipe and says the 301 works as good as the SA 200 & sa 250 he has, and likes the multi process capabilities and Aux. power for plasma & etc. The other guy does misc. field repairs and runs a 7.5 HP industrial compressor from the Aux. power. That is impressive for a compact machine. I guess the 302 is every bit as good.
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 08-21-2007 17:40 Edited 08-21-2007 17:43
Here we GOOOOOO! The new Trailblazer is amazing. It has the arc force or "Dig" as they call it. This feature wasn't on the older 250 TB that I still have and it has an arc AS GOOD as the Classic II. I set the dig on the third setting. I get no pop outs when coming down at three o'clock and still get a really smooth cap.  It's nice to have amp control while welding whether going uphill or down, imagine lowering your amps as you near the end of a 3/32 7018, nice huh? When welding DH I run a 1/8 5P plus root with a 1/16 gap, well sometimes it's a 1/16. Switch to 5/32 hot pass, 3/16 fill and cap so the amps can go from 80 to 200 in one weld. Without a helper to call out amp changes to- I feel like this is the greatest things since the Red Face, Short Hood, all copper SA acetylene weld. Boy, I sure hope nobody disagrees with me!@#$%^

I paid $3500 for mine, it's a gas model and uses about 20 to 30% more fuel than the diesel just like Miller claims. It weights slightly less than the diesel and costs 1/2 as much. I figured it would take about four years to justify buying the diesel at that rate of savings. I have a 50 + mile commute to the city so not lugging that 1400lb Classic up and down the Interstate will same some of that fuel cost difference. And at four years of use the welder portion of the machine should just about be wore out so why go diesel??? Why not go diesel you ask. The welder I sometimes brother-in-law with bought one just after I did and it is so loud you can't talk standing near it. Thats the only difference between the two. 

Finally here's someting to ponder: I just did 32 joints of 24", X52 .500 wall, 100% RT API1104 with a seasoned welder from Trinidad. His Classic 300 was in the shop so he had a
Miller Bobcat. No repairs, very few indications.  It may not be what your rod is hooked up to. It may be how you wiggle it.

See Ya, Love Ted
Parent - By swsweld (****) Date 08-22-2007 02:37
True. I wouldn't ask anyone to make a xray weld with the Bobcats we have though. Older machines. A couple of our guys will need all the help they can get machinewise. Thanks Ted and Dave for the imput on the TBlazers. I called earlier for pricing for new 302s. Also on CST 200 for smaller inverter machines with dig and remote control.

Thanks Gerald for great technical info on RT. I may need to refer back to this if I feel our welds are good and the RT tech is somewhat inexperienced especially on backing rings.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Backing ring, root pass, x-ray

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