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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / VOLTAGE,HEAT,SPEED CONFUSED ! ! !
- - By SCHOONER (*) Date 08-18-2007 00:59
Hi Guys (Newbie Here Again)

Working with my new MillerMatic135 and read what I can understand, especially at the ripe young age of 66 . . . lol

Seriously, I'm confused about just how to set my setting.

I'm restoring my classic Ford Mustang '66 Convert. And man I'm havin' one hell've time. Some pain, some fun.
Oh but those mig welding setting are getting me crazy.

I welding 18 to 22 gauage sheet metal and what confusing me is what I've been reading.

I figure it this way and I'm wrong. I have two setting dials on my mig welder.
1. SPEED
2. VOLTAGE

So, I turn the dial on the SPEED to: 4.5
And the VOLTAGE to aroiund 5
Welding on: thicker 18 gauage s/metal

And I get going pretty good and then I get SPLATTER, UN-EVEN WELDS and most of all I STICK and the circuit breaker goes out.

From what I've been reading: The SPEED also jacks-up the HEAT. Of whick I don't understand. I though the VOLTAGE dail boosts-up the HEAT ? ? ?

I don't know guys, need help with this UP HEAT/DOWN SPEED or whatever.
If in case speed can be turn into heat whats with the voltage, what is that really used 4. ?

My welding can be much better. My welds are STRONG no little holes in 'em. Don't know how to spell PUR ROST A TEE ?

So, guys I'm in your hands again thank GOD.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL

Schooner
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-18-2007 02:01 Edited 08-18-2007 04:04
Hello SCHOONER, simply put, the wirefeed welding machine that you have is referred to as a constant voltage, variable amperage machine. Also simply put, when a voltage is selected the theory goes that it will deliver a voltage that is constant and doesn't vary up or down regardless of how the wirespeed is set. Now, having said that, the theory also goes that as you increase the wire speed the amperage goes up and if you decrease the wirespeed the amperage goes down. Amperage is going to be one of the determining factors that will have to do with how much heat you see in the welding puddle as you weld. There is also a direct correlation between the voltage and the wirespeed, simply, thicker materials require higher voltages and higher wirespeeds, thinner materials require lower voltages and lower wirespeeds. Experimentation will generally yield the best results when you are trying to determine how to set your machine. The suggested settings that are on the inner cover of the welder are very general at best and are good starting points, they are also usually based on ideal conditions for the power being supplied to the machine, having all new and perfectly adjusted machine components(tip, nozzle, drive rolls, gun liner, etc.), nice clean metal, etc. If you are using an extension cord on the machine or if you are using a circuit that has a smaller breaker and or feed wire sizes than that suggested by Miller you could run into some issues, not impossible ones, but certainly things that can have an effect on the results.
     If you are having burn-through issues first try adjusting the wirespeed to see if you can remedy the burn-through that way, if not, try adjusting the voltage to a lower setting and then work with the wirespeed settings again to see if you can take care of it. As I mentioned before the combination of the two can generally be dialed in to work for your given situation, but you will need to possibly use some scraps to come up with the correct settings and do some experimentation. There are some other variables that can affect how the weld puddle will act: wire diameter can have a large influence, likely .023 or .025 wires would be best for your situation and the size of your machine, type of shielding gas, there are a myriad of different gases that can be used with the wirefeed process, in your case you could probably use either straight CO2 or the 75/25 shielding gas mix(75% argon, 25% CO2), many folks prefer the 75/25 for spatter issues and also to some degree penetration characteristics, whether you push the puddle or pull the puddle can have an effect on how the bead contour comes out(generally, pushing the puddle will flatten and widen the bead also reduce the penetration, pulling the puddle will generally increase penetration and narrow and increase the heighth of the bead). Just a few thoughts for your consideration, there will likely be others to chime in here with some really great information for you to consider. Regards, aevald      I got to thinking and decided to include one other suggestion, Miller has some really great materials available to everyone through the web, try going to www.millerwelds.com There are sections on GMAW  that could probably explain this in better detail than I have and also possibly in a more step-by-step and more understandable language. Good luck
Parent - - By SCHOONER (*) Date 08-18-2007 03:42
Hi Aevald

WOW! That was some explanation and I THANK YOU 4 it.
I certainly have a much better idea as to what the heck is happening to my welds and ME.

I will watch what I'm doing more carefully, again THANKS TO YOU.

GOD BLESS

Schooner
Parent - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 08-19-2007 03:49
Hay Schooner, If it may help I adjust the heat then put the wire about 1/16 to almost touching the puddle, adjusting the wire to accomplish this holding the gun about 1" from the puddle straight up and down no movement. then test weld, repeat if necessary.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-19-2007 08:29
Good morning Allan,

may I agree with SCHOONER?

This explanation is truly excellent..!

Best to you,
Stephan
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-21-2007 01:50
Hi Stephan, and thanks for the agreement. I'm done teaching my summer classes and taking a break to go back to work out in the local industry, that's the reason for being so slow to respond to your post. I have had the opportunity to work with a number of individuals in trying to learn a bit about how to do some home-welding with some of the more utility oriented welding machines. Even though(in my opinion), the wirefeed welding processes are some of the most easily picked up and applicable welding processes that are available to individuals who are not necessarily professional welders, they still have their challenges, idiosyncrasies, and other quirks and tricks to be learned. I posted a few items and upsidedown posted some others and there are an abundance of others still that could be included. Hopefully those who come here as SCHOONER did, will take the time to do some additional researching and sit down and do a fair amount of practicing and experimentation when they can. If the opportunity presents itself I would hope that they might also try to take some instruction either through a local welding program of some sort or by the tutelage of an experienced welder friend, if they have access to any. Anyways, thanks again, Stephan and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-21-2007 03:11
Aevald - instructing the home-shop welder: Some of the concepts of a CV power suply don't quite bear out with the 110 volt MIG units, as there are finite limits to the output amperage that are below the spray transition. This should be remembered when giving theory instruction to users of these small machines. While We are used to the idea that as wire feed speed increases the amperage goes up to maintain the arc length and voltage [this is how it works with a more powerfull industrial machine], the small machines just don't have that much power to work with. Aditionally, many of the home users will be using self shielded wire due to the simplicity and lower initial costs of the equiptment. These machines may not operate in the textbook spray transition mode due to limited output.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-21-2007 06:25
Hello DaveBoyer, I completely agree with you that there is a vast difference between the industrial machines that most career welders will use in their everyday jobs and those that are sold as hobby welders to the general public. I also certainly agree that the 110 volt and even a lot of the 220 volt type home machines won't operate to the full spectrum of their industrial brothers. As I mentioned in my posts, without going into elaborate detail, there are idiosyncrasies and things that are specific to these machines. As you mentioned, many who purchase and use these machines will use them with the gasless flux-cored wires mainly for the simplicity and also the lack of the need for gas bottles and regulators. As you eluded to, I believe, they may not readily realize that there is a need to change the polarity of the wire when using the gasless flux-cored wires(they require straight polarity to operate properly).
     I teach in a program that offers a 2 year degree in welding technology, it also offers two different choices of 1 year certificated program, we also teach related welding to machinists, automotive technicians, diesel mechanics, millwrights, electricians, hobbyists, artists, farmers, and any number of different types of upgrade training for the local mills, businesses, and their trade constituents. When I do work with the hobbyists or others who have machines at home, I generally make them the offer to bring in their machines if they would like to and then I work with them to understand the limitations and capabilities of what they have, I also show them the differences from the industrial versions regarding all of the different modes of arc transfer and how their machines stack-up when compared alongside. If you felt that my posts to this thread left out some important points thank you for bringing those forward for the others who might read this. Regards, aevald
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-21-2007 14:44
Hey Allan,

thanks a lot for your response and these additional background information.

Also the addenda coming from Dave were interesting to read and consider, as well as your response on those.

By having read both I have thought about myself. It is true... One is always presuming specific preconditions - just as industrial welding applications - and is "forgetting" those welding equipment users as mentioned by Dave. Lower electrical performances in welding equipment naturally reduce the output of the power supply leading to the fact of having "specific ranges" not available or using them, respectively.

Assuming, one has an "industrial" power supply available, but in reality he has not, can damage the best meant professional advice.

Really good point and discussion, when I am permitted to say so!

Finally please allow to let me tell you Allan that I have the strong certainty that your students and everyone else who has the pleasure to be instructed by you in welding - theoretical and practical - can be lucky by having this opportunity!

But... I am also certain they do already know that.

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 08-21-2007 15:08
FYI Miller's 110 vac machines have another feature. That is the wire feed speed tracks with the voltage setting. A synergic fine tuning control. Check it out. Set the machine's voltage control on tap 1 or switch position 1 and the wire feed speed at 50%. Feed wire for 10 seconds and measure what comes out. Then increase and measure at each tap setting. You will see an increase in wire feed speed without changing the wire feed speed control.
With those little machines for welding sheet metal (car panels) use the 75 Ar 25 CO2 mix. For hot rolled, rusty/thicker material use 100% CO2.
Wire feed speed determines the amperage which determines the penetration and the voltage controls the height and fluidity of the weld deposit.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-21-2007 15:52
Hey 357max,

hmmmm, sounds interesting!

Seems to me as were these power supplies exactly been tailor-made for applications as you have mentioned it...

Thanks for the information.

Best,
Stephan
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 08-22-2007 04:36
Hello Stephan, I find that there are about as many parallels in teaching a trade as there are to learning about, practicing, learning more about, applying, learning more about, staying abreast of advances, etc, and finally learning more about. I feel that I have learned as much in teaching others about welding as they have learned from me. I say it that way because everyone has a different way of looking at something, analyzing it, attempting to apply it and so on. The demographics of the students that I have had the pleasure of working with over a number of years have run the gambit, youngest registered in a class, 13 yrs. old, oldest one around mid-nineties, all different cultures and countries of origin, truly interesting in and of itself, deaf and dumb students(not meant in a derogatory manner), simply a very broad cross-section of the make-up of our society. I do feel that the majority of welding "students"(I include myself here), learn much from watching and participating in the welding act. A few can do quite a bit as a result of reading and researching, but not nearly so many as the latter. I also feel that successful instructors are the ones who can figure out the style that each student learns the best with or from. I used to be rather hard-line on what I deemed the proper way to make a particular weld, I have become much more open-minded and end-oriented with my welding critiques, the old statement "the end justifies the means" has much more relevance to my interpretation of one's welding skills at this point in my career. My teaching partner who retired last year had 35 years of training welders, I can't tell you how many individuals that figures out to be that he had a hand in shaping a portion of their lives and careers, I spent 16 years watching his actions, suggestions, prodding, etc. and feel that he taught me plenty as well. Occasionally the thought will come to me that almost all of the other welding instructors that I have met, known, or currently know have had long tenures in the teaching profession, but then again, other than my parents and my own family, my welding instructors were a tremendous influence on me and my life. I have also heard many individuals say, as I did myself, that the experiences that they had in industry were not so different than those that they experience when they instruct in a formal setting. I mean, that many of us who work or worked in industry ended up being the leaders who are responsible for the actions of others so we tried to make a difference in the learning that took place with our co-workers. Those who are really good at that are some of the best instructors as they have the real life experiences that can be brought along when students need a reason or an explanation of the importance of a particular situation.
     Every time that I log on to the forum here I know that I will learn something or be reminded of something that I have forgotten or always wanted to know. I read a lot more than I contribute, yet on occasion I do feel the need to make a statement or include something that I feel is relevant. Many times my curiosity has been sparked by a thread or a comment by another poster and it has given me the push that I needed to pursue an answer or try to learn more on a specific topic. Forgive the stray thoughts on this particular post, but every now and then I get a bit wound up and this is a good way to unload some of those thoughts. Wishing you well Stephan and look forward to your continued participation on the forum. Regards, Allan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-22-2007 04:31
Allan, it sounds like You have a really good program. I didn't know if You had any first hand experience with the 110 volt machines. I have a  90 amp "little crapper" from Sears, and it definatly is not in the league with My Airco Dip Pak 200 or Dip Core 300. I havn't used "little crapper" much, just a few little jobs where the portability was handy. I might get to liking it better if I play around with it more.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-22-2007 04:52
Hello DaveBoyer, I have had experience with the smaller units and with many different off-brands and most of the namebrands also. Yet, as you say and said in your post, those machines can present a whole different set of challenges in trying to make welds that will serve the purpose. That is part of the problem of also having had the pleasure of running some really superior types of industrially rated ones also. Unless I'm in a pinch I will opt for the big boys any day. Very soon though, I do believe that there will be "economy" type machines that will start to exhibit at least some of the positive characteristics that are enjoyed on the industrial versions. From 357max's post about the synergic aspect of some of the machines, that very well could be a start. Yet to some degree, you still get what you pay for and likely there will always be the bare-bones machines. I don't discount these machines and their purpose as they have saved many the home-enthusiast a dollar or much more on a welding repair that they and their machines were able to do. As you said though, Dave, the key to being able to work with these machines is to understand their capabilities and to be able to work with them to figure out their individuals issues and characteristics. From the sound of things you have a number of "toys" to play with and figure out. Regards, Allan
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 08-22-2007 13:47
The little machine's (115 (110-125) vac input/primary) transformers can only provide so much output/secondary. To get the 90 amps at 18 volts the machines normally rated weld output/secondary; it takes 20 amps at 115 vac input/primary. To get max output will take more input. ie to get 130 or so amps it will take about 25-30 amps input. The input voltage will also determine the output. If the voltage input is low; ie 100 vac the output will be low.
With that info and a number of GMAW book's statement "...GMAW short circuit steel requires approximately 1 amp of welding current for every 0.001" thickness..." . Therefore a 90 amp weld output would be efficient to weld 0.090" thickness material. And, at 130 amps; 0.130" steel thickness. Wire Feed Speed determines; Amperage, which effects penetration; low amperage equals low/shallow penetration. Low/shallow penetration equals weld failures.
Smaller diameter electrodes concentrate (current density) the available amperage in a smaller more focused arc cone. Therefore a 0.023-25" diameter electrode will provide deeper penetration at 90 amps. At the same amperage; the 0.035 electrode will have a shallower penetration.
Gases have a big affect on heat input. CO2 needs about 3 more volts at the same amperage as Argon CO2 mixes. Volts multiplied times the Amperage is Watts. Watts is power, more watts equals more power.
The low, limited weld output is not the little machine's shortfall. It is the mechanical parts, drive motors, drive roller w/pressure idler roll,  etc. They are built for price not performance.
Always pre-purchase test weld the "little" machines with CO2; this is will test/determine the smoothness of the arc the machine is capable of producing. Mixing the gases will have a noticeable improvement in arc (smoother metal transfer, less spatter) performance.
Parent - - By upsidedown Date 08-18-2007 16:38
Hello,

  It is true that your machine has two dials on it; however, these are not the only settings you have to pay attention to.  Travel speed, electrical stickout, and gun angle are important too. Start with the settings that are posted on the inside of your welder and adjust from there as needed. Pay particular attention to the polarity; incorrect polarity is one of the most frustrating and easily overlooked details one can make.  Your travel speed should be slow enough that you can see a nice rounded trailing edge of your molten puddle; too fast and the weld will be skinny with an arrow-like appearance pointing the opposite direction as travel.  Keep in mind that sometimes you may need to travel fast to avoid burn through (sheet-metal) but try to turn the machine down first.  Also, stickout (the distance between the arc and the contact tip) matters.  If your machine does not have "electrical stickout" posted on the inside play with it and find a distance that will allow the arc to run consistent. Somewhere between 3/8" and 3/4, depending on your wire feed speed, you should find a sweet spot.  Use common sense to figure out what is happening; if the wire is burning back to the contact tip, wire feed too slow; if the wire is pushing the gun away from the work, wire speed too fast; again, find the sweet spot.
Parent - By reddoggoose (**) Date 08-19-2007 02:50
I didn't get to say anything!!!!!!!!! LOL
Parent - - By SCHOONER (*) Date 08-19-2007 18:08
Hey Upsidedown

I thank you for your helpful imput and I certainly appreciate it.

I must admitt that I'm working with a handicap: I am totally BLIND in my right eye.

However, GOD has been so giving to me and has given me very good sight in my left eye.
I do have a bit of trouble sometime with my depth perseption.
HE is the weldor, I'm only holding the mig gun.

Thanks again Upsidedown
GOD BLESS

Schooner
Parent - - By Choppperguy Date 08-22-2007 15:35
You might want to check the polarity on the inside the cover also, the miller machines usually come set up for Flux core wire, and you have to change the polarity setting if you switch to solid core.  It is pretty simple to change.  By unscrewing the jumper plate and switching it.

My 2 cents
Parent - - By SCHOONER (*) Date 08-22-2007 17:11
Hi Guy

The setting inside my MillerMatic135 are set for solid wire and that's O.K. I'm running 25/75% with the gas.

Thanks for your imput.

GOD BLESS

Schooner
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 08-24-2007 04:17
hey schooner if you've only got the one eye to weld with please please use only ansi certified  glasses under the helmet and only ansi certified lenses in your helmet.
darren
Parent - By SCHOONER (*) Date 08-24-2007 16:33
Hey Guy

Thank you for you imput and YES I'm using the recommended lens.

Thanks again
GOD BLESS

Schooner

QUOTE: JESUS is doing all the welding and seeing for me. I'm only holding the mig gun.
Parent - - By Steven_OHarra (*) Date 08-30-2007 19:38
Some very good posts but one thing that was missing was the point of the popping circuit breaker.
At that guage, you should be well inside the comfort zone of that welder. Assuming your contact tip is not shorting continuously, you may have another (more common problem). How close is your welder (electrically) to the circuit breaker panel? A friend of mine can only run his 110v welder at half output... if he goes above it, the motor starts running erratically and the wire begins to stick followed by a 20A breaker popping! The problem is too small a guage wire feeding the outlet and his desire to use a 25' extension cord on top of that! We placed a DVM in the outlet while welding at only 1/2 power and were amazed... the 120v open circuit reading dropped to 75-78v AC when welding. With source voltage that low, the welding machine starts to draw excessive current making terrible welds followed by popped breakers! Keep the welder as close to the circuit box as you can and try it w/o any extension cord. If the problem goes away, its time to examine your wiring needs. Voltage drop is a function of current through the wire. A 110v welder will draw nearly 2x the current of a 220v welder at the same tip voltage and wirefeed (2x the voltage drop on the AC cord leading from the circuit breaker box all the way to your welder).
Parent - By SCHOONER (*) Date 08-31-2007 16:20
Hi Steve

Thank you so much for you GREAT imput.
Well, low and behold for two days my new (about 6month ol' MillerMatic135) was shorting out and the machine would STOP and in about 5 or 6 second she would turn on again.

And I could only weld about 3/8's of an inch at best. It was driving my crazy.

I'm starting to look at life a new way. Years ago I would stick with an idea or proceedure that wasn't working till the end.
Which was: the defintion of insanity is: Do The Same Thing Over And Over And Expecting Differant Results. That was me.

So in my Brillant mind I decide to take-away that 25ft. extention cord and BINGO! I am now welding beads at long as I want.
You're right Steve, Keep The Welder As Close To My 110v Outlet As Much As Possible.

Thanks Again Steve
GOD BLESS

Schooner
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / VOLTAGE,HEAT,SPEED CONFUSED ! ! !

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