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- - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 08-18-2007 19:24 Edited 09-15-2007 22:19
I have a Thermal Arc predator TA 10/270-H with 225 hours on the meter, and I have no power to the stinger or the 115v recepricals. I have pushed the reset switches for the 115v and nothing. I was wondering if there was a reset switch or button for the alternator?/generator?. I cant imagine the generator could go bad with so few hours on it. I bought it used from a dairy that went out of business, I started it and ran fine.I should have welded with it and didn't, thats hine sight, What could possibly be the problem? Thanks.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-18-2007 22:56
Did you check the fuselink or fuses???

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 08-19-2007 00:07
That makes sense Henry, but I don't know what to look for. does it look like an panel fuse form a house? or flat bar? I will go in deeper and investigate. thanks.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-19-2007 05:32
I think that unit is a asyncronous sp? alternator. What that means to You is that there are some capacitors inside that need to be good for any power to be generated. Try to find a troubbleshooting section in the manual, i am not familiar with Thermal Arc's website,but You might find it there. This type of generator is not supposed to burn up if the output is dead shorted, so in theory at least shouldn't be burnt out,but in My experience with other types of equipment capacitors do fail from timeto time, I suggest You check that posibility.
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 08-20-2007 01:33
hay Dave, I went to a website and finely found a service manual, you are right, it is a asynchronous (brush less) generator. The trouble shooting guide says to check the excitation capacitor. I will try to find out what one looks like. thanks for the help.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-20-2007 04:01
Look in the "Equiptment Wanted" section of this forum under the topic of "Capacitors" 8/17/07. I posted a basic test procedure for testing capacitors. Hope this helps.
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 08-20-2007 17:31
When I first read your topic....I thought you were talking about Louie that works for us in the back bay....(sorry)!
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 08-20-2007 20:29
Yeah, that topic always gives me a laugh. According to AWS terminology (AWS A3.0), a "welder" is always a person, and "welding machine" is always to be used when referring to the equipment. I used to work on the Welding Journal and we had to correct this in articles all the time, and it will always stick with me.

Ross
AWS Marketing
Parent - - By fbrieden (***) Date 08-26-2007 21:34
When did it change from "weldor" to "welder"? Isn't it still "operator" as opposed to "operater"?
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-27-2007 04:59
Weldor - The person who does it. Welder - The machine the person uses. That is the difference acording to some book I read.
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 08-26-2007 17:40
Dave I went to the forum an capacitors and really I don't know what one even looks like. I think I am going to have a professional look at it, I just wanted to save some money, I thank all of you for your support.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-27-2007 05:00
If You are not familiar with this type of stuff it can be a little intimidating, hope the problem is easily and cheaply repaired.
Parent - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-15-2007 22:26
DaveBoyer I need to give you credit for sending me towards the capacitors now I know what one looks like I thank you all.
Parent - - By KSellon (****) Date 08-31-2007 17:47
Let me guess the last 8 numbers of your serial are A191707C. If so check the stator. We have replaced around a dozen under warranty for Thermal Arc. And still seeing about 1 a month with the same last 8 on the serial with the stator shorted.
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-15-2007 06:43
I have torn my welder down, not giving up on lack of knowledge, scared to death, and found a capacitor bank with a blown out bottom? I have been told that that is junk? and it would cause a short. I put my meeter on it and it is dead, as far as I can tell. I might need to replace that bank, it is a 3X60 uf 550vac 50/60hz, and I havent had any luck finding thoes. I haven't checked the stator yet cuz I was so happy I found something that looked trashed. I am going to look at the serial # and see if I have those #'s. thanks. I take it your a welding machine mechanic, (They got on me about calling it a welder but we all know it is a welding machine, HA HA:) What do you think about the welding machine I have? sounds like they have alot of problems with stators, would that be from air arcing (well for the technically speaking people it would be carbon arc gouging:) well enuff of the extra reading, I hope to get my welding machine running do you think it is worth fixing?
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-15-2007 15:02
Hmmm,
Now the question that comes to mind is to check any of the connecting circuits in order to rule out the possibility that something else from a different component or even something not working correctly on one of the circuit boards or motherboards, is the cause for the Capacitor bank to blow open like it did. If you do'nt have the experience in troubleshooting all of the circuits inside of your machine, then I suggest that you bring it to someone that's factory authorized to do so - that is, if you think the machine is worth maintaining for future use.

I say this because I do'nt think that the only way to fix your machine is to simply replace that capacitor bank or is it a single capacitor connected to a bank of capacitors? In any event, The gentleman named "KSellon" seems to have experience with these machines so, I would also follow up on his advice too.
Have you also contacted Thermal Arc customer service describing your current discovery?
Please let us know what you find out with respect to the ultimate cause of your machine's component failure. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-15-2007 22:18
HI Henery. the capacitors are 3X60 uF, there is three banks, I think there is 3 in each bank. The corner of the bank is separated from the plastic covering. I am taking your advice and going to try to find out what caused the malfunction, I would have  thought that carbon arc gouging could put allot of stress on welding machines, I don't think they weld the same after you arc gouge, I could be imagining it though. and I will see what Thermal Arc has to say about my problem, thanks again Henery.
Parent - - By KSellon (****) Date 09-18-2007 15:34
Ihave one in my shop now with a faulty stator, but everything else is good. Call the owner Dan Sherry 405-630-0205. Here is a manual that will probably get you in to more trouble than its worth but here you go-
Predator  http://www.thermadyne.com/thermalarc/literature/pdfs/service/430429_493.pdf

Good luck- The numbers you are providing for the caps are MFG numbers and will not cross to TA OEM numbers. TA11-3286 capacitor $245.12 each.
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-19-2007 06:00
HI  KSellon, I don't get it? the owner of  the welder is Dan? I don't get why the caps are so much. Is the $245.12 for the bank, or one single cap? isn't there three caps in one bank?. I thought if I found some caps from a manufacture with the same values, I could wire them in, kinda like making my own bank? well I guess that really isn't that much if that is the only thing wrong? what do you think causes the cap to break the bottom out?. Is the only place I can buy these caps is from a distributor of Thermal Arc? If so, thats not really that much to spend, if the only problem is the caps. How much is the stator??? ( lets see if  I can come up with another question????) No, I just appreciate all that info, and wish I could help you out some how, (need anything welded????) funny huh.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-20-2007 04:33 Edited 09-20-2007 04:36
If it was My machine I would shop arround for the lowest price on a capacitor OF THE SAME TYPE AND RATINGS as the factory parts. Check with electric motor rebuilders in Your area. With regard to testing other components, I didn't look at the manual link, and don't have time to for the next few days, so I am no help there.
Parent - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-21-2007 04:58
Hello DaveBoyer, I will call around to these places, I didn't think of that, I was just looking for caps on the Internet with no luck. I sure hope the stator isn't bad too. I haven't had time to do anything with my welding machine except look at it as I walk by. and thanks again.
Parent - - By KSellon (****) Date 09-20-2007 14:39
I was just letting you know, you won't be able to call a welder service facility with the info you were providing. I don't care for the purple machines because of the problems I have seen with them and the prices Thermal Arc has on the parts.

Thermal Arc sells the caps one at a time. (ouch!!) I was giving you a heads up. Can't really say why the failed. And there is no guarantee that will be your only problem. The stator is 11-3731 $1176.12.

Call Thermal Arc for testing info if its not provided in the manual. 1-800-255-5846. I personally would check everything before investing any money in the machine. JMO
Parent - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-21-2007 05:13
I sure appreciate your knowledge, I will take more time to figure out what is going on with the welding machine, and hope the caps are the only thing wrong, If all else, I will know a little bit about whats on the the inside of a welding machine, instead of just running a bead. Thanks for the heads up too, I will make sure I test the stator too. Thanks for all your help.
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-15-2007 21:56
KSellon, I went out to my work where the thing is torn apart and the s/n# is A191707C ,(last 8) I didn't have the time to check the stater, I will try to do that Monday.
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 09-16-2007 01:56
goughing kills all but the old lincoln torpedoes and some very tough machines. in our shop all gouging machines are dedicated for gouging only. with the new machines and their circuit boards one gouge and the 'chatter' when the rod is moved to slow or if the amperage is to high,she's hooped, period. any dealer or rep who tels you different is lying maybe not on purpose but still none the less they are telling you a lie. in our shop if a machine is used for gouging it will no longer be able to produce a stable enough arc for ut/rt/mt/dp quality welds
on a pipe job my friend is on the first thing they asked was has your rig ever been used for gouging and if it had it was not allowed on the site.
darren
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-16-2007 03:19
Darren, Your post has got Me thinking. At the plant they did do some pretty heavy gouging from time to time, but I don't rember what they used for a power source. There were some old Lincoln torpedos around the shop, I wonder if they used them for the gouging. None of the welds done there were particularly high quality, if a fancy machine got compromised I am not sure anybody would have noticed.
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 09-16-2007 05:21
rotary generators are the only type of machine that it doesn't cause the stack of magnets to come apart, or the circuit board to lose its mind, or cause a capacitor to become defective, or many other things that can go bad form gouging. if you've got torpedoes then designate them as gouging only cause unless it is a twin wire sub arc do you really need the possible 1200 amps they can produce for any other process. plus they gouge like butter with all sizes of rods. from 3/16 to 5/8. can you tell that i am a fan of the torpedo welder?
if you were to do a survey around the shop, "hey guys which welding machine sucks" with no more accurate sceintific study other than that, you've probably found the machines that have been used for gouging. old cc only machines are less likely to crap out but they will be just a little more unstable than the machine that has been guarded by that "anal" guy who protects his machine from ever being gouged with.
in our shop if you were to gouge with a machine that was not designated a gouging machine then you would be written up and in my and the other welders opinion in the shop who are subject to ndt, rightly so. our maintenance guy would probably choke you.
darren
Parent - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-16-2007 06:22
Hi darren, I thought they seemed a bit different after gouging? I had a new lincon ranger on a service truck, welded for about two weeks, then gouged with it and it wasn't  the same, so I never gouged with any of my own welders.(oops, welding machines:) I dont feel so bad when I say no to gouging, get me a rental with 400 amps. well  thank you for the myth bust in my head.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-17-2007 04:06
I think the Lincoln motor-generators at the plant were 300-400 amp machines, and I am not sure but I think the transformer/rectifier machines were in the 400-600 amp range. These machines were in the tool & die building and heavy weldments with 1" fillets were not uncommon. Most of the equipment there was sized suficiently for building car & truck frame tooling [pretty darn big].
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-16-2007 06:32 Edited 09-16-2007 06:34
Hi Darren!

All of what you mentioned can happen if indeed roostenmotherbr was gouging with this machine for a period of time while maxing out the output capacity of the machine. However, in order to know for sure, I re-read his initial post and the post where he mentions "Air arcing (Carbon Arc Gouging or Cutting)" as a possible cause yet, not admitting to using the equipment for that intended purpose... So it seems to me that if CAC did indeed blow those capacitors, the only way roostenmotherbr would be able to find out is by enquiring with the previous owners from the dairy which was mentioned... Unless the gouging was performed by roostenmotherbr. :(

From what I've read, and I may just be interpreting things differently but, Roostenmotherbr did'nt even get a chance to weld with it, and only observed that it started right up before purchasing the machine which was probably a mistake as was admitted. I wonder if roostenmotherbr can still try to get a refund because for all intended purposes - sadly to say, I think you got "hoodwinked" unless you were the one that tried to gouge with it. :(

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-17-2007 05:18 Edited 09-19-2007 06:04
Hello Henry. I haven't had the chance to weld with it, I went to a job, got all set up and the thing wouldn't weld, I had to get my dads Lincoln to do the job. I got took. The dairy owner has left town. I don't know if the dairy people air arced with it or not. I just was wondering what could have caused it to make the capacitor or the bottom of the cap housing com apart. I have learned my lesson on a company welder that I have worked for in the past, and after I gouged with it it didn't work the same. I got a good deal on it I thought, $800.00 I think it might be worth fixing, but then again I don't know. I talked to Praxair, told him I needed a 3X60 capacitor and they wanted $200 + for the capacitor bank, I think that is 3 60uF caps in a bank? I have looked allover the Internet for it and I cant find anything. I am not going to go down with out a fight on this portable welding machine. and thanks again for all the help.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-18-2007 01:12
No big deal but, please spell my name Henry, "Henery" which btw, is incorrect.

If I were you, I would bring it into a qualified Factory authorized service center so they could properly diagnose what caused the capacitors to blow like they did.

Respectfully,
HENRY
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-18-2007 03:16
Sorry for the spelling, Henry. I have a friend and he spells it Henery. And for the welding machine, I know your right, that would be the smartest letting someone who knows what there doing. sorry again for the spelling your name wrong.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-18-2007 16:26
It's all good Roostenmotherbr :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-19-2007 21:41
Hey Roostenmotherbr!!!

That price you got from Praxair sound a whole lot better that the price KSellon gave you from Thermal Arc!!!If I were you I'd jump on it unless that is, you already have three of the same values... A word of caution... Go to a qualified electronics repairperson in you area, and ask them to compare the capacitors in your machine with the ones of the alleged same values...

If they say that they're copastetic, err meaning that they are both of the same ratings across the board.. in other words they'll both work in the same capacity according to their respective ratings, then use the ones you already have and throw the person a "fin" (Five dollar bill) so that they can buy themselves a beer or two for helping you out!!!

Now you'll have enough money to throw in a new stator that KSellon mentioned :) :) :)
All the best to ya! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-21-2007 05:27
The price came from Prax air after they called Thermal Arc, and I should have written down the quote, I can call him back and get it for sure.  When I got the quote I went shopping. If I find some caps with the same values, wouldn't  it mean they are the same? I haven't been able to find anything yet, DaveBoyer had a great idea, call some electric motor rebuild places, maybe  they can help with some capacitors? I hope so. and thank you Henry.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-21-2007 16:59
I would agree with Dave or anyone else for that matter!!! Look! If you can get these Cap's for the lowest price possible, then go for it - PERIOD!!! You're going to have as much money left over more than likely to buy whatever component it is that failed beforehand in order for the caps to blow or, if that's not that case, you're going to save as much as possible in order to replace the stator which will only make sense if indeed the stator is'nt working properly in the first place!!!

You better make darn sure that the stator is'nt working properly before you make that move, and try to find one cheaper than what Thermal Arc "price gouge" will charge you for a replacement!!! IMHO, those folks are ridiculous when it comes to replacement part pricing!!! :( :( :(

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-22-2007 05:18
That would be the smartest idea. I will call some other places to get prices like US welding but wouldn't they get it from thermal Arc? I will do some investigating to see where I can get parts other than Thermal Arc, If anyone knows where I could, would save me allot of time. Dave gave me an idea to check with electric motor re builders for caps?  I haven't had the time to do much, I just need to find the time!!! and thanks Henry for all your time.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-22-2007 22:31
Hey Roostenmotherbr!
Why do'nt you post the capacitor ratings and dimensions on this thread so that some of us can help you in locating matching capacitors -Capish? I'll certainly give it a shot! ;) Btw, Dave's suggestion certainly makes sense... As far as the time goes, well that's something you've got to plan in any event...

It's called "Time Management" so, set yourself a schedule that you can meet. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-23-2007 03:24
Henry that would be greatly appreciated, the make is MECO cm uF 3X60 +-10% Vac 550 Hz 50/60 MK ITALY -25C/85C "D" 09/98, that is exactly how it is printed an the cap bank, I haven't dicected the bank to see if there is three caps in it, so I am assuming. I totaly agree with the time management, I need to make more time for my own projects. Back to the cap's, I don't know what the "D" stands for, and I think the 09/98 is when it was made? I don't have degrees on my keyboard so the -25C/85C is the temp rating, you prably allready knew that?? thank you Henry.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-23-2007 04:39 Edited 09-23-2007 05:36
I almost forgot!
Where are you located... General region & state would be good enough so I can locate a place somewhere near enough towards your location - capish? Also, please give me the length or height of the cap, and the diameter... Not the circumference. ;) The small case symbol that looks like a "u" followed by the letter f means micro farads -how many??? The letters "cm" should be followed by either another letter like the letter "I", followed by the number "4"Here's what I found online from Meco:

http://www.mecocapacitors.com/cap9.htm
http://www.mecocapacitors.com/cap10.htm
http://www.mecocapacitors.com/cap11.htm

Take a look inside and see if you can identify it or not.
Do these look familiar in the attached picture?

You may be able to ask them if they can locate a distributor in the states that carry them. Here:
http://www.mecocapacitors.com/cont.htm

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-24-2007 00:55 Edited 09-24-2007 00:58
Boy that was quick, the uF is 60. I am in central Utah, small town hardly any resources, I will half to tear the cap bank apart, it is at my work, I will give you the dimensions on Monday and that will confirm just what is inside the bank? The value was printed on the outside of the black casing about 8"L X 3"W X 4"H. The cap that is inside the casing is the mystery.  I went to MEKO web site and couldn't find anything.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-24-2007 02:33
That's because you probably typed in MEKO instead of MECO...

May I suggest that you recheck all of the writing on those caps or the casing and have someone else verify what is written there?

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-24-2007 04:53
Henry, I am going to tear the bank apart and get the actual print that is on what ever is inside  the black enclosure, I am real curious as to what is in there, The writing is correct, I have written it down at least 5 times, but I will check it again. thanks Henry.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-25-2007 03:53
An electric motor rebuilder should be able to test the stator for You. This type of alternator is similar to an induction motor in construction.
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-25-2007 04:38
Hi DaveBoyer, I have to test the stator my self, I have limited resources where I live, I would need to drive 150 mi to get anything done. that will be when I mess the hole welding machine up, I need to study the manual and try to figure out how to do it. I sure appreciate all the information. 
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-26-2007 03:12
Several of the tests can be done with an ohm meter, checking for open windings, shorted together sets of windings, and shorted to core/ground. You MAY be able to detect a winding shorted to itself as a lower ohm reading. The insulation breakdown test is done at higher voltage and uses a deticated power source, this one You probably won't be able to do. There is often visual and odor indications from a burned or overheated winding. If KSellon can tell You what the nature of the common stator problem is, You would have a better idea what You are looking for.
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-26-2007 04:47
I am wondering if I can test the stator with the rectifier bridge taken out and the caps, I assume I could, isn't that in the alternator itself?. A couple more wires and I should have the hole thing apart. well anyway, I need to get on it and find some time to spend on it. With all this information, I am going to start taking notes:) Thanks DaveBoyer.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-27-2007 03:15
Test each component individually, it will be easier to keep it all sorted out and You will be less likely to develope wrong conclusions.
Parent - - By roostenmotherbr (*) Date 09-27-2007 03:47
So you mean I can test the stator with everything taken apart? I mean all the wires that go to the caps,rectifier, are all undone, can I still test the stator? or do you think I need  to get the caps, then see if it still has problems?
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