Welding or Inspection

By Stephan (***)

Date 08-25-2007 14:06

pipewelder_1999,

I hope you're not upset when a foreigner is the first one to reply...

Just wanted to say that I got goose pimples by reading this story!

Really impressive...

I can feel with you by punctiliously having "felt" how the "welding" pervaded you with inner enjoyment!

I am lucky to know this feeling, which is nearly an indescribable one...

Best to you!
Stephan

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-25-2007 14:34

I don't think nationality or race or anything else changes how one feels about welding. There are a couple of Hispanic guys at work that are fitters that stay over to learn how to weld whenever I stay. I can see in their faces that they enjoy welding. It's quiet under the hood. Just you and the fire. The insulation, dirt, grime, heat, noise, etc all seem to disappear once that hood drops.

I think some people are in it because its a job and they grow to enjoy it or at least accept it. Some have always loved it and are blessed to be able to do it or something related to it as a means of income. I just wish our educators could do a better job of presenting this trade as a respectable job to be desired.

Have a nice day

Gerald

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 08-25-2007 15:55

Gerald,
I have always enjoyed welding. It is a fascinating skill and art. I was taught my trade by skilled craftsman and always feel obligated to pass what knowledge I have to others. However as a practical reality, welding is a young persons game. While we all know the guy who is 68 and is still a first class welder, most of us cannot bring to mind more than one or two. And I have the experience of testing some of these older guys. I feel sorry for a guy 60 years old who comes in to take a test. The eye-hand coordination is not there and the eyes cannot see. I started in inspection and project management because I get a great feeling of accomplishment from completing a project where no one got hurt, quality met the code and company requirements and the project met its budget. It is much more involved than being under the hood. And I have the opportunity to help entry level welders develop into first class craftsmen. If you are looking for easy, then being on you tools is much easier. You don't have the issues that come with higher responsibility. That responsibility has cost. You do loose freedom. I sometimes envy the guys at 5:00. they go home. I do paperwork and budgets. I review Q/C. I get ready for the next day. Maybe tickets to a project meeting where I will spend 8 hours listening to how slow we are moving and how much over budget we are over. Bummer. But I get back to the job and have a 6:30 meeting and one of the foremen tells how one of the new welders just completed X number of welds and they all passed x-ray. We move on the the next item and 7:00 we go to work. I feel proud I have contributed to this welders success. Over the years he will make a lot of welds and polish his skills. But it started on my project. I get the same kind of feeling with this as I used to turning and burning. But I see my responsibility now is to pass along the "Tribal Knowledge" I have to the next generation.
When I started inspecting over 20 years ago I had 2 Lincoln SA 200's One was 54 short hood vacuum advance and the other was a 68 red face. Beautiful machines. I kwpt them just in case inspecting got slow, then I could always go back to my tools. I was given some advice I will pass along. If you are going to weld, weld. If you are going to inspect, inspect. Be the best at which ever you choose. But you cant be both. You may be inspecting for someone today you want to weld for tomorrow. I have followed that advice Over 20 years I have become much better at Q/C and PM than I ever was at welding. But this is only my opinion. But I still give you the same advice. If you are going to weld, weld. If you are going to inspect, inspect. Strive for excellence in which ever you decide. But decide. You owe the guy you work for that.
JMHO-BABRT's

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-26-2007 00:27

I appreciate your comments. Some good stuff worth chewing on. As a person just reaching 43 I have switched to bifocals this year. So now I have to take my glasses off to weld. I have always seen fine up close but now I have to take my glasses for distant vision off to see up close. And Bifocals are a pain to weld in.

I do go back and forth every few years as I want to keep up to speed in both. I was expecting to stay at my current job for the duration. I work there as an inspector but also get to do some welding during training. It just may not work out. I do try to give my employers 100% when I am there. When I no longer give that, its time to go.

Have a nice day

By arcboy

Date 08-26-2007 01:02 Edited 08-26-2007 01:49

I feel your painful decision. I am only 26 year old CWI just got my level I PT training adn starting to go for level II hours, along with deciding what other certs I can go for. Just trying to put more notches on the belt and to add the the resume. I have AAS in weld tech and this is my eighth year welding. I absloutely love to weld!!!!!!! Currently I weld 75% of the day and 25% of inspection. I also yearn for knowledge in welding/inspection. I just started another huge passion as a welding instructor. I find myself wanting to keep up with getting more and more certs. I often think what if I just want to take a few days to get the need to laying an awesome bead out of my system. You really can't have both, at least not everyone can have that oppotunity. Sure I get to both but where I work I make 15.80/hr and that is no where good enough, shoot guys that have been here for almost 30 years just clear 17/hr. We build products for companies like General Dynamics, Lockeed Martin, Northrup Grumman, etc... Holding to Mil specs for that money I think is ridiculous.

I have sort of decided to put my passion aside and try to think into the future a bit. I mean everyone knows that welding isn't the healthiest job due to smoke, worn out joints, the other associated dangers. So I figure that inspection is on the healthier side of things. Since I started to teach I have learned that I can still weld, which I love. I can still teach, which I love. Now I can focus my career into inspection, which is healthier.

From what I see you can make about the same as a welder or an inspector. It will vary a little bit depending what you are welding or inspecting. I personally am thinking of either inspecting full time and starting my micro welding business. Or teaching part time and starting my micro welding business.

I have been looking for a full time shop(not construction/feild work) inspection job for a while now. I am a bit picky, but something will come up. I am sure many things will change for me but in the long run it will work out.

Anyways enough of that. I wish I had some good advice for you but I am too young to give it nor to decide for myself. Best of luck in your decision.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-26-2007 12:46

I think one of the ways to utilize most of my skills, knowledge, and experience is to teach. I enjoy welding most when I can help someone else do a little better or understand what they are doing better.

I think even with inspection or any other trade the passion you mention is the key. I have it for both. Welding is just more "instant gratification" as I enjoy it as soon as I strike an arc. With inspection my satisfaction comes farther down the road or sometime when I know I have helped my employer and their customer.

I appreciate your comments and don't sell yourself short because of age. Don't worry about the $ . After your basic needs to survive and support a family are met, job satisfaction is a bonus that cannot be traded for money. Maybe in the short term, but not in the long.

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 08-26-2007 12:51

I too have had to do some very serious soul searching in regards to QC inspection. I haven't given up on it yet, but it was close for a while.

I well remember the days of fabrication and welding, when I would show up for work, take out my tools, get the drawings, find the material, and get started. It seemed that break time was just ten minutes later - then lunch came just as quickly, and before I knew it it was time to go home. Go get cleaned up, look back at what I accomplished, make a mental note of where to begin in the morning, and drive home satisfied. Any mistakes made, I corrected and made sure not to repeat them (until the next time that is).

The QC side of things can be satisfying. It feels good to catch a mistake early on and prevent a high cost in rework. Or to work with a new welder that "gets it" when you explain why he/she is getting porosity. Or when are able to defend your company when a customer feels the welds should have profiles that look like they were machined, but the welds meet the code in everyway and would be considered beautiful by any experienced welder.

Unfortunately, the negatives can overwhelm the positives. QC is constantly being challenged to "prove" a decision. Holding a shipment because identifed deficiencies were not corrected in production (blew past a hold point) makes QC very popular. Having the customer find an error that no one caught automatically is QC's fault and not the fault of those who actually made the mistake. Foremen get angry with QC because their employee has to "wait for a QC check", even though there are hundreds of necessary things that could be done during the wait. "Engineers" that "know" that weld will hold even though it is undersized per the welding symbol. Third party inspectors that enforce their opinion and don't know what D1.1 is (a LOT of that lately). My personal favorite is sitting in a room with 12 of the customer's brass, no one else from my own company, and being told to justify why the contract should not be cancelled for poor workmanship; and they are right - there is no excuse for what was shipped to them. (Yet there are numerous QC markings and reports to identify defects- that were shipped anyway when I was tied up with other "things".)

Over time, I have learned who I can trust and who I can't. I know who is "likely" to make corrections to marked up defects and who I need to keep an eye on. Management has begun to swing towards "quality first", more inspectors have been hired, managers are being held more accountable, "bad actors" aren't employed anymore, customers are giving us positive feedback.

It all goes in cycles, like the weather. As long as I can weather the storm, I know the days after will be beautiful weather. Besides - I'm too stubborn and obstinate to do anything else. (This has been applied to many other occupations but I first heard it applied to welding inspectors - "Arguing with a welding inspector is like wrestling in the mud with a pig. You soon learn that the pig actually enjoys it!).

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-26-2007 12:56

Chet,
You hit most of the things I have experienced right on the head.

Arguing with production/management/your own boss over quailty is like wrestling with a pig. You still end up dirty, win or lose. Sometimes it just washes off better.

Gerald

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 08-26-2007 14:33

Chet,

What a poignment testimony you have given us. I have seen the operation at your company as a third party QA inspector, and was quite impressed with the operation. I never realized that you had to go through the torture of indecisive managment machinations.

I remember, that I experienced some of the effort you described to improve the quality in your company, in a much smaller bridge fabrication company. In a short time, there was quite an improvement in weld quality. Eventually, the owner got to compare the the weld quality of our welders to the weld quality of competitor's welders. Suddenly the pendelum stopped mid swing, and went the other direction. Just as sudenly everything got outsourced to Maryland. Two years later, the company was a shell of it's former self. It was reduced to minor miscellaneous work and emergency work.

One thing I learned was that the old saying "Quality doesn't cost . It Pays" was not wholly true. The plain fact of the matter was that performing top notch work, cost more in time and money. Much of this additional cost can be offset by the reduction in re-work and back charges. If you adhere to a Quality Program all the time, you can get that "Extra Cost of Quality" down to 2 or 3%. Then comes
"Outsourcing". Of course in the company where I worked, there was no surveilance of the subcontracted company.

I wish you the best,

Joe Kane

By vagabond (***)

Date 08-26-2007 22:38

Nice thread here fella's. . .lots of interesting points of view etc. I am getting ready to take the plunge into inspection myself and have switched back and forth from welding to pipefitting for years. I have to say that at the end of it all I just learn other skills as a safety net for when I can no longer weld proficiently. I'd like to think I am competent at layout and fitting etc. and I want to be good at inspection as well. That being said, with a lot of us I don't think anything compares to welding. It's not easy to do well, and shoot 100% with a low repair rate. There is a certain peaceful feeling under that hood that just does tend to make the day go by faster. And there's the satisfaction of knowing you are needed for your skills in a industry suffering from a lack of properly trained craftspeople. It gets in your blood, just like the travel and the rest of the lifestyle. But I am glad there are welder's who are doing inspection, I don't think enough inspectors are welders. I'm not saying you should have to be a welder to inspect, I am merely saying your past experience should be scrutinized more thoroughly before you are allowed to be a CWI. I hope I like inspection as much as welding, however I already envision having problems getting quality to come before quantity. . . . . .and I was always trained to do it right no matter what so it will be an adventure I suppose but I'm taking my hood when I go to my first CWI gig!!!! Just in case. . . .

By aevald

Date 08-26-2007 23:02

Hello vagabond, I believe that you hit on a very important point when you made a statement about quality. I too have strived for quality and "perfection" as much as I could all of my career and I can still make improvements and I know that. Now that I teach welding I sometimes find myself asking if I am expecting too much of the individuals that come to learn welding. I know that there are acceptable levels of performance for welds and there is that point where the weld will fail and there is that point where the weld will perform as it is designed to. I guess I have two basic lines of reasoning for pressing for quality over mediocrity, the first being that if one applies their welding in such a manner that there is no question about the physical characteristics of it, it is likely that it will also test OK. The second being that out in the working world you will be in constant competition for that particular job and being compared by the look of your welds as well as the speed and ability with which you can accomplish a welding task. There are certainly other characteristics that employers look for but as far as the welding component goes quality and speed are a determining factor. There is no difference in the inspection end of this trade, as an inspector you have to be able to recognize the characteristics of a particular weld visually and by various additional inspection methods and apply the code requirements to that as the code dictates. I believe at times that this requires you to put aside your personal beliefs as to levels of quality and to adhere to the specifics of the code. When one discusses the choice of inspection over welding I feel that individuals who weld have only themselves to justify their work, inspectors on the other hand have to be willing to sign off on the work of others and feel confident that they have done everything that their jobs require to insure that the work will hold up as it was meant to. To me inspection takes a special sort of personality and a different set of skills, both people skills and technical skills, you have to decide which best suits you. My $.02 Regards, aevald

By commonarc (**)

Date 08-27-2007 01:57

As a Boilermaker, you may want to change your online name. The word 'pipewelder' would give you lots of trouble in my local. Boilermakers weld on tube as I'm sure you know. Boilermakers and Steamfitters have a fierce rivalry. Just busting your chops :) :)

I know what you mean about being under the hood. The only person you can have a problem with when it comes to welding is yourself. That's if you're lucky enough to have a comapny that actually cares about what they are welding. It's a great trade and the pay scale is rising because all the young guys want to work behind a desk.. Good for us but bad for the trade in the long run.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-27-2007 03:23

Its all round with a hole in it :) . Its just doesn't have a jackstand and a helper if its a tube ! Just kidding. All the welding related trades are good ones to be in.

By CWI555

Date 08-28-2007 01:36

There are a lot of things that are round with a hole in it.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 08-27-2007 13:14

Great thread! I have enjoyed reading this one...mostly because I can relate....Man, sometimes I think Chet reads my mind most days<--he nailed it on alot of what goes on in many companies(mine included).

By Flash Date 09-15-2007 10:44

Hi Guys
I thought I was the only one delerious about welding, I just found the AWS forum only to find there seems to be many others just as passionate about welding. I get people look at me weird sometimes when I get excited when we talk welding, its my thing. So what is welding to me its from welding prodedure development to final spatter removal and prep for painting and the myriad of facets in between. I started of with a love for "the light" mainly tig/fcaw on pressure equipment. I loved the art of welding, improving the technique until it neared perfection, it is challenging 50%mental 50% phyiscal.

As I have learnt more about welding I have learnt about welding management, welding supervision and inspection, this is also a challenge but now 90% mental/10% physical and most probally more demanding than actually welding, I still love welding, not doing it so much any more but showing others how to. I certainly have alot more responsibility and welding inspectors are like the cops of the welding industry, most people do not like them, they impose things on them, things that cost them money, so generally the are not the most popular people in the shed.

Yeh welding is easier, sweeping the floor is easier again but is it challenging, you can only do welding for so long before the challenge goes out of it, when that happens the excitement to watch the light fades. Thats why I progressed into welding consultancy. Now instead of doing it I talk about it and manage it and help others do it, and the point was made about it being a young fellas game, eye sight, aches and pains especially knees and back, rsi hands, wrists, neck and the long term effects of welding fumes are a few points that will become apparent as your age progresses.

Yeh watching the light is good, but if you watch it for too long, that light at the end of the tunnel; could be a train. the industry is a high risk industry, In QC if you are able to manage the stress that comes with the job (generally self imposed) the worst you will get a paper cut of over exposure to photocopier toner. There are plenty of old QC people not so many old welders.

I agree that this is a great thread you guys have started

R
Flash
www.technoweld.com.au

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 09-17-2007 00:05

Paper cuts! Man oh man - last week paper cuts were the least of my worries. None of the inspections were on the ground. Access to the 75' roof level was cage ladders on one end and 100% tie-off at every level above 25' along the way (anything up to 25' had rails and barriers installed). Once on top, structural steel for the penthouse and stacks of grating 3' above the baghouse shell made walking around a challenge. Of course we had a good bit of rain so the meaning of "ponding" was well understood when I had to go on hands and knees to get under the structural, kneepads didn't keep me above the waterline. I won't go into details but Saturday morning seemed like 200% physical and 300% mental. Paper cuts indeed!
If I HAD gotten any paper cuts, Safety would have ridden me hard with First Report forms. As it was, someone tossed a wire brush off the roof, it landed near some safety people (management level), and they looked up to see me and my partner on the grating deck. We didn't have any wire brushes, there was no welding going on at that level, the brush was painted with another company's color, and we weren't doing anything that would have knocked anything over. But we got "hauled down" for an investigation, a stern lecture, and the opportunity to fill out Near Miss Reports.

The lesson learned - never be near the edges on any job where work is going on at upper elevations. If anything falls from anywhere, you don't want to be the first ones that Safety sees when looking up from the ground.

By aevald

Date 09-17-2007 00:27

Hello Chet, that's a great snippit of how your time went. Hearing your story and experiencing some of my own involvements out in industry on a regular basis does make me appreciate my full time job of teaching. Have a great day and plan for some "recovery time", relaxing chair, stiff drink, and some good company. Best regards, Allan

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 09-17-2007 16:30

Alan,
"It's all good". What I left out is that the Boilermakers were working in the same conditions. No disparity there.
What I was glad of is seeing how many people had to stop to catch their breath after making the climb - surprisingly some were fairly young. I was feeling kinda conspicuous with my huffing and puffing until I saw that. I try to keep in shape but don't always do so good at it when I get busy. Working in a shop environment isn't that physically demanding. After last week, I resolved to do better at it- my lunch is very lean today!

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 09-15-2007 15:40

I appreciate all of the responses. They have made me think more about the whole situation. I appreciate the time and thought you all put into the responses.

Gerald

By Carbon Arc Junkie (*)

Date 09-16-2007 13:15

Hello pipewelder_1999,

What a great piece of writing. And all the follow-up threads. Very enjoyable reading.

I fell in love with this Profession when I met an old man, Hank, who had a small welding shop (garage) that I always walked past when I played baseball at the age of 15. One day, I stop in and was awed with the piles of assorted steel, machinery, and that smell, that lingered in the air was just like the cigar smell at the old ballparks. I found myself spending more time there eating up everything he was saying and doing. This man was a true blacksmith, that took me in and taught me everything he knew.
   I can relate to your peaceful feelings when the hood comes down. Hank would talk constantly, but I noticed that he didn't say a word when he was burning rod after rod. Then he would step back, and always blurt out, "Damn, that's a good weld". It wasn't until Hank let me try my hand at welding some scrap pieces, that I felt the peacefulness and everything was just gone for that moment.
   I spent most of my idle time with him for the next 3 years, never asking for a dime in return (but he always had a cold soda pop, 16oz. RC, waiting for me). One day my dad stopped over and they talked for what seemed like hours, because I was doing some of the cutting, fitting, grinding, and welding for Hank. Hank told my dad I was ready to take on some jobs, that required a truck and welding equipment, that he always turned down. That was my beginning of my mobile welding services. Other than my 4 year stretch in the service, some slow times in the 70's and the mid 80's, did I venture off to working in a fab shop environment to make ends meet. I've bought two other service trucks since then and racked up over 550,000+ miles, on my 4th generators, and probably burned more than a ton of rods.
   I still, to this day, have the quiet, peaceful feeling everytime the hood (aka: Auto-Darkening Lens Helmet) comes down and I step back and blurt out, "Damn, that's a good weld". But, there is one big difference since I started in the 60's, I can't find anyone that's enthusiastic and wants to learn the art of welding. I feel it's my turn to be the old man Hank was.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-16-2007 15:22

Hi Carbon Arc Junkie!

If you keep looking enough, you'll find somebody as enthusiastic as you were when you first started out. ;)
You may want to see if it's possible to recruit an intern from one of the local Vo-tech High Schools around your area as a place to start.

Things are different these days, and I do'nt have to tell you that amongst young folks today, ti will be harder to find someone like you who went to the master for education. So, I guess these days one has to find them instead... All the best to you, and I commend you for trying to carry on the tradition of passing on what you know to others that are willling to seek it!!! ;)
As another "Hank", it's nice to read about this. :) :) :) Hopefully you'll soon find a willing apprentice. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

By medicinehawk01 (**)

Date 09-17-2007 08:33

I am also a "Welding Examiner" as opposed to a welding inspector, which I needed to teach pipe welding. I had enjoyed teaching alot, but I didn't like the politics associated, and I had not gotten the support I felt I needed, so I gave up that position. I could possibly be a foreman although they like to give that to non-indians (did I write that?) but you know, to me it don't matter who is running the job because there is a sense of freedom in putting on the hood and "burning her in there".
I have to accept that this is what I do (weld) and I am certainly okay with that and will probably weld as long as I can see and IF i do not shake too much. There is considerable peace in knowing that I can go anywhere to work with this craft.
If you like it still (and it pays) you should probably be doing it, but I am probably way younger than you so that could be a factor for you not to weld. Just joking.
Be well,
Hawk