what wall-street had to say about welders

Date 09-06-2007 12:45

I'm just taking a wild stab at it, but I'm guessing something was said about the value of welders???? How about a link to what you are talking about?!?!

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 09-06-2007 13:41

Wall Street Journal August 2006

http://webreprints.djreprints.com/1531490511822.html

By OBEWAN

Date 09-06-2007 14:10

Most lay people still do not understand Welding Engineering as a career. The article opens with the words "welder" and then goes on to describe a "welding engineering" job offer. I have been a welding engineer for over 25 years, and when I tell people what I do, they say "oh you are a welder". That is only partly true. I have worked as a welder in past jobs, and am not too proud to do that task, but I also have studied calculus and differential equations and at least 3 semesters of advanced metallurgy.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-06-2007 15:12

Weemarkable!!! :) :) :) What do you expect from laypersons that are clueless to our respective field!!! Heck! the most complex mechanisms they know how to operate is a keyboard, and maybe an automobile but, do'nt ask them how they work, what sort of physics is behind the inner workings of the mechanisms, or groups of mechanisms and systems that make up something more complex like an automobile. :) :) :)

Electrical or electronic theory??? That's "Magic" to those folks. :) Differential equations: "Huh???" ;) The same goes for "Calculus!" Metallurgy? Their response would be: "Metal - who???" if ya catch me drift. ;) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry but, you can call me "Hank" ;)

By yorkiepap (***)

Date 09-06-2007 19:03

Hey OBEWAN,
Your post kinda "stoked my coals" regarding the opinions & general career outlook on the welding arena and the level of intelligence of "lay people". If "lay people" were educated in the level of degreed careers and made to understand the parameters of education required to obtain that welding degree, maybe more would give considerations to investigating a welding career either as an engineer or "just a welder". I consider myself a "professional" regarding the facets of metalworking I do, and I am proud to wear that moniker--"WELDER"!!! I live a very comfortable lifestyle, have all my "toys" and great shop equip. & facility, and the time-off periods so I can relax and enjoy the fruits of my labor being partially retired. I worked hard for these benefits of freedom and finances. The problem today with the last 2 generations of lazy, under-educated, callous-free, lily-white fingered, silver spoon-fed, no respect, no honor, no outlook, no hunger to learn, spend-thrift collection of "DUUUHHHHHHH!!!!!" pea-brains, is because of the parents and education systems. I'm 63 now and grew in my youth to learn the work ethics of my generation and parents. Work was and IS quite healthy.....that's why you see what the youth of today look like, talk like, and live like. DUUUUHHHH!!!!!

That article was interesting but shed no light or truth on the causes of this shortage and future shortage of all the trades professionals. Most companies want great workers with great work ethics, superb skills, powerful brain patterns, but do not want to compensate for them. They would rather out-source it to a foreign country with slave worker wages. So, who is to blame?

My other comment would be your statement: "am not too proud to do that task".......please elaborate or clarify that statement. Does it mean you feel welding is not below your standards, or do you mean it is demeaning work as to your level of education? Seems to me that an engineer who has a working knowledge in his area of expertise, would be a better engineer with the "hands-on" experience of knowing the physical properties of the metal joining configurations he/she engineers. Just MHO.......Denny

By OBEWAN

Date 09-06-2007 20:20

I don't mean that welding is demeaning, just that it can be hot, dirty, smoke filled, etc. I will admit that I enjoy clean TIG, Laser, and Electron Beam welding a lot more than overhead flux core to D1.1. I have the scars to prove that I have done both - set my hair on fire - the whole works. If people sign up for a welding career they need to grasp what they are in for - both the good and the bad. I will not deny that those who work hard and have hands on skills will do well in this profession though.

By cwf07

Date 09-07-2007 01:20

I agree with yorkiepap. I have a small welding business here in GA. working on bridges, heavy equipment, small fab. jobs, I tried working older and younger people and can't find know one with the heart and passion for old school welding.

By new tito (***)

Date 09-06-2007 15:46

Thanks for the link. Very good article.

By mogley01 (*)

Date 09-06-2007 21:13

Well no matter what there is a shortage of welders in the U.S. The place that I work at is short handed. But there are some very good and experienced welders there that have been with the company for 15 to 20 years. That are only making a dollar or two more then a new guy that can't even weld. So all that I am trying to say is that for a company should show a little respect that it is not just a job that anybody can do.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 09-07-2007 05:56

LOL My bosses statement when we got the new certification test layout "It can't be that hard my son got a job welding and was doing it by himself in a couple of days" (mig gun in a satellite shop). That ole "welders are a dime a dozen thing" I think that the return of an old friend who use to weld in that shop flunking his certs changed his tune just a bit. I layed that wall street article on his desk just to drive the point home a little.

We can all cross our fingers and hope that the demand will help us all out who have stuck with it.

By OBEWAN

Date 09-07-2007 12:18 Edited 02-22-2014 20:49

I think we will need to see improvement in the wage scale before the shortage goes away. Here in Jacksonville, FL there was an ad in the paper for flux core D1.1 welders - $8.50 an hour. My first job as a welder in 1979 paid $8.50 and hour, and with 3% inflation, that would equate to $17.50 an hour today. I say it is unfair to pay even $12 or $13 an hour for a skilled welder, and although not always a union person, I feel they are necessary to protect the trade in many cases.

By reddoggoose (**)

Date 09-07-2007 12:41

Personally I think much of the problem that we face in the welding industry is just plain ignorance. I see it even within the welding industry itself. Welding Engineers are practically unheard of, and in many instances when they are available, their jobs are not well understood. Many "welders" out there have no idea of what codes are, how to perform destructive testing, or basic metallurgy principles. Welding shop foreman and managers that take advantage of their workers, and turn out shoddy work because all they're looking at is the bottom line. Now when you consider those outside of the welding industry that ignorance grows to epic proportions. To many people a welder is an uneducated mindless drone who comes home filthy and with hardly anything on a paycheck. Many people seem to think that all welding entails is gobbing some metal on a steel plate. Many don't understand the skill required to make a sound weld, not to mention the ability to fabricate something from nothing. They don't understand that you can't weld everything out there with a good old 6010 electrode. What really pisses my off is when self proclaimed "welders" (and I use that term loosely) go out to a job, scab something together then take their money and run. Often times the part ends up failing and it gives the whole welding industry a black eye. A good welder is damn hard to find, they're out there. I see many of them on this website, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Parents don't want their kids in welding for careers, yet they don't have any idea about what the industry has to offer. How many high school counselors do you think recommend a career in welding rather than a Masters degree? I can assure you that I have yet to meet one. High school and tech colleges closing their welding programs have been proof of this. To me that is a sad situation, the welding industry offers opportunities for the hard working skilled welder as well as the individual with a college degree.

I take great pride in my ability to pull on leathers and a hood and build something that many other people would have no clue where to even start. I am proud that I work in the welding industry. Thankfully I have a job where I can spend time both in the engineering aspect as well as stiking arcs in my lab. I have been welding since I was a teenager. I cut my teeth in the weld shops before graduating college over a decade later, and if I come home from work dirty, then it's proof that something was accomplished today.

By Goose-em (**)

Date 09-07-2007 19:36

I agree with you reddog. Just today we had a rather large weldment that needed to have a mag particle inspection done before it could be released and then any defects repaired. Our welders and lever II MT inspectors were leaving at 1330 and said they would have to finish this up Monday. I jumped in and volunteered my time this afternoon to help them out.

It feels good to get out from behind the engineers desk from time to time and get your hands dirty. Although I didn't find any cracks I would have gouged and checked and filled and done whatever work was neccesary had I found a defect. When people ask what I do and I say "I am a Weld Engineer" they immediately think I go to work and weld all day long. In fact some have accused me of glorifying myself much the way a garbage man would by calling himself a "sanitation engineer."

I tell them I don't weld much anymore after the calculus, metallurgy, statics, etc that I learned at college but that I can still outweld most welders on my worst day when needed, except you of course.

I am proud to be a Weld Engineer and proud of the fact that the hood I have had since I was 17, which helped to build the Luxor Casino in Vegas among others, hangs quietly on the wall in my office and I still get to put it on once in awhile and show them how it is done.

Read my resume, under engineering qualifications it says, "Willing to get my hands dirty." A simple enough statement but the truth and truthfully that one sentence has paid for itself over and over again.

To you young folks out there thinking about a career, check into welding you might just find you like it and when someone says oh you are just a welder ask them when the last time was they dealt with the hottest man made temperatures found on the planet today, and ask them when the last time was they saw a plasma stream turn a solid into a liquid and then back into a solid. Are you dirty at the end of the day? You bet, but dirt washes off while the pride you feel never will so hold your head up and pass the word, welding is where it's at.

By mogley01 (*)

Date 09-07-2007 20:09

I have to say that I agree with everything that has been said. I didn't know a thing about welding when I started working with steel, I was hired to grind. Well I got the chance to weld about six months later. It just felt natural if that makes since. Well know five years later I can put a weld down in a butt joint and be confident that it will pass X-Ray. And I found out that is a lot more to then just striking a arc. And now that is why I want to see the other side as a CWI. And as far as wages go the guy that does the grinding is only making two dollars less then me. But that is life

By CWI555

Date 09-08-2007 00:36

WHAT??? 6010 won't weld everything??? Say it Ain't So!!! :)

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 09-08-2007 16:00

What we have in this country is lack of appreciation of trades and craftsmen in general. A good pair of well fitting long lasting work boots cost around 150 to 200 dollars. How many are willing to shell out that much when a pair from China cost 50 at Wally World? Our culture expects a 200 dollar pair of boots for 50 bucks. Employers expect a welder who has trained in the craft for many years to accept wages paid to truck drivers. In my region of the country a oil field truck driver can make 70K working 50 to 60 hours a week. In Lubbock a manufacturer is looking for welders who can qualify SMAW/MIG/TIG and is offering $17 working 5 10's. Most welders I know can drive trucks. The manufacturer HR is complaining how hard it is to attract welders with the oil boom going on. Well when single hand SMAW welders are getting $24 in the same area you would figure the company could figure out how to attract qualified craftsmen. And remember you cant spell Who Cares without using HR. When we get back to valuing quality work and are willing to pay for it, the shortage of craftspeople will shrink. But I do not hold out hope for us. The lower to middle manager who are in their 20's and 30's were raised by parents who do not value quality. They taught their children they are entitled to cheap goods, now.
BABRT's

By medicinehawk01 (**)

Date 09-08-2007 20:46

[deleted]

By CWI555

Date 09-09-2007 02:55

The world of yesterday is long since gone. Unfortunately, it takes people a long time to realize this fact. As we speak the country of United States is undergoing a severe social Stratification in which the haves and the have nots, are slowly but surely being pushed further apart with the number of less fortunate being made the predominant group.

Kleptocracy (sometimes cleptocracy) (root: klepto+cracy = rule by thieves) is a government that extends the personal wealth and political power of government officials and the ruling class (collectively, kleptocrats) at the expense of the population.

Plutocracy, power and opportunity are centralized within the affluent social class. The degree of economic inequality is high while the level of social mobility is low.

Corporatocracy, since the amount of money required to buy enough stock to influence megalithic corporations voting/policy is more than most can afford, only select few affluent persons/organizations can afford it. Corporations are answerable to their shareholders, of whom, by definition are affluent if they have a vote.

In my eyes, those three tie directly together. These days, rare is the politician that gets elected without major financial backing from one or the other corporation.

What protects America from this? The constitution. Who amends the constitution? the politicians, who hires the politicians? We do. There in is the Achilles heel for the slow takeover of America by the three groups above. However, It would take a mass movement of voters to throw out each and every crooked politician and start with a group that did not have their hands stained by large interest group money.

What does all this have to do with the perception of welders? Maximization of corporate profits. Anything that cuts into profits, cuts into the bottom line of that corporation and by proxy, that of the voting shareholders. The job of welding as is everything else is bid out to the lowest bidder. If someone will work it for cheap, that's more money and influence for the corporations. When the balance of what a welder will work for is tilted to a degree at which it is cheaper to ship it over seas and back, that's where it is going to go.
If you want someone cheap, are you going to tell that someone they are important? Think about it. Further, the laws have been steadily changed to favor and allow shipping these jobs overseas. Both parties are guilty of this. The corporations complain and belly ache about the "shortage of welders". I believe it's more a case of a shortage of "cheap working welders".

All of this is driven by the desire of a few to extend their sphere of influence and increase their wealth. These people are banking on the common citizen not being willing to pay extra for products made by skilled craftsmen. They are mostly correct in this. I know a lot of folks who complain about our jobs going overseas, but would rather buy at walmart than the corner mom and pop shop because it's cheaper. The mere fact that Walmart continues to grow is abject proof of this. Without customers, Walmart would die and wither away, as would others of their ilk.

So next time you find yourself in need of a few supplies, remember that cheaper price now, may well be the loss of your Job tomorrow.

Just a few personal observations and opinions,
Gerald

By makeithot (***)

Date 09-09-2007 04:38

An interesting artical to say the lest. I especialy liked the part about "the far flung regions of northern Alberta". Those boys need to get out more. I have to agree with everyones comments thus far but firmly agree that cheaper is not better. I for one am also proud to call myself a welder and even prouder when I look around at what I accomplished for my family with that skill. It would be a perfect world if every task was completed on a nice clean shop floor but then how would one build character. I see every day the results of cheap labour and wonder why it has to be that way. I do believe that it is a reflection on our school system and the loss of a good clean work ethic that was once part of it . I do know that teachers have their problems so I guess we can't blame them. As for that company that did everyone a favour and raised their starting rate to $16.00 Hour - give your grape a dust !! I'd be going across the street myself for that quick buck. Have'nt worked for that kind of money for 25 yrs and don't plane on it any time soon. As I have suggested in one of the other threads here I think that as what appears to be a dying breed we should all ban together stiffen up the apprenticship training,and demand a wage that is relavent to the health hazards,work place hazards and skill set required in order to "get the job done". Lets face it not everything is going to be able to be made in China and when they ship that junk over here someone has to fix it. I may not be university educated but you don't have to be all that bright to figure out that a top wage of $16.00 hr is not going to attract alot of new comers. So again where have all the welders gone well, their all over at K-Mart making $18.00 bucks an hour, Who would'da thung it.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 09-09-2007 16:21

Very well stated Gerald....could not have said it better.

By ibeweldingsum (***)

Date 09-12-2007 02:40

Unfortunately all of us have fell to the make it over seas and save money standard. I myself went to work for a man who only had 3 employees when i started,and him and I where the only cert. welders. After 3 1/2 yrs. he had 10 employees and had invoiced over $1.5 million. Then told me I was still only worth $15 an hour to him when I by myself had invoiced over $250,000 of that $1.5 mil.!!! Taking care of his customers, flying out at a moments notice to wherever U.S.A. with my suitcase in one hand and my hood in the other. That mentality is so prevelent in most all companies nowadays. Damn shame we don't organise and make them pay us what we are worth!!