Gentlemen,
I have read much of your posts related to the CWI/CWE seminar/exam, I think that most of us tend to see things from our own experiences and perspective. If I myself am successful at passing the exam than I can't see why others aren't as successful as me.
It's very easy for us to be smug and indifferent at those who don't match our perceived level of intellect, so it is with human nature huh? Let's not look down our noses at those who haven't reached our level of certification.
I have over 24 four years in the welding industry, as a welder, welding supervisor, welding inspector, welding project manager, and welding test lab technician, destructive and non destructive. I have worked with various welding codes, specifications, and standards. (AWS, ASME, EN ISO, PED, etc. I reference technical books and data on a daily basis like, ASM, ASME, AESS, and the related). I have also taught welders, hands on welding techniques and applications and have inspected welds in house and on site on many different types of steels. So I have a very balanced perspective in the issue.
One of the venues that has become a huge money maker for AWS are the CWI/CWE certification seminars. I personally know many persons who have taken the CWI/CWE seminar/exam a number of times. These aren't persons who don't do their homework. or are dumb, stupid or are just looking to have their company foot the bill for a week away from work. These persons are very professional at what they do,. The include engineers, QA personnel , skilled welders, welding inspectors, welding supervisors, company managers, and even a skills job recruiter who have all failed the exam once, twice or more times.
Granted, there are some very good instructors who do teach in the AWS seminars some may be a factor in helping the seminar student to learn the seminar content others may not. Unfortunately not all for us can observe three parts of a jammed packed exam in a 40 hour presentation and than do an exam afterwards. Most people feel exhausted after eight hours of being battered by an on slot of a 'you got to get this' type of presentation. On the job, most people really don't deal with all or most aspects of what is presented in the CWI/CWE seminar or what is on the exam it self.
While in the seminar It is very easy for a person to begin to feel a sense of "I'm going to fail", when certain topics are presented that are unfamiliar in their every day work experience. In the seminar/exam I am sure that AWS tries to address all aspects of what they think will cover most welding, inspection, and education related processes and experiences that the general industry populous encounters in their everyday work experience.
The reality is that the seminar and exam fails a good percentage of persons who "tough it out" through much study and home work, many fail even though they work hard at trying to retain the contents of the seminar. They will find that It is not a matter of "toughing it out" through much study and homework. It is a matter of how much of what is taught in the seminar, relates to a persons work experience in the welding industry. When the reality hits them of what the actual content of the seminar is, they than try to make the adjustment to learn it in the short time that they have to learn it and find that it becomes very overwhelming.
In short the seminar and exam is geared toward a certain few that the seminar is actually tailored to. That may come as a surprise to most who have not thought all of this through. If AWS were to brake the seminar content up and tailor it to the ABC company that most of all of the ABC company exam participants will pass the exam.
Humm, but this will not serve AWS' purpose though. To have most persons re-apply to re take the exam does ensure that AWS will continue to lead the field in
certification type seminars. With another sixteen or eighteen hundred dollars a person may pass the next attempt. But probably not, an additional momentary investment in to the study materials that are geared towards passing the exam and more study time with those materials will hopefully ensure that the person is ready for the exam at their third attempt. Now with a 5k to 6K investment into AWS, a person could finally pass the exam. In the the time between now and than, hope that your employer does not think that you are a complete idiot for not passing the exam the first or second time and than fire you.
Let's face it, AWS is a monster that will not be tamed unless you feed it with what it wants, and that is your $$$.
MoreMoney,
There is nothing in the CWI exam that is not covered in the "Certification Manual for Welding Inspectors" or in "Welding Inspection Technology"
The seminars <If properly put on> never will teach to the CWI test... It is not their intent. Blaming the compressed Seminar format for a pass fail ratio you don't like is a bit of a stretch
In order to pass the exam a learner must understand the content of the two manuals listed above and have a mastery of the taxonomy and indexing of the code they choose to test to. This is a huge amount of informaiton that takes YEARS to assimilate
The formulas for 100% of the math, conversions and related equations is given right up front...
I don't know many folks with the list of credentials you suggest are unable to pass that exam after multiple seminars.
Furthermore, the AWS has taken steps to allow folks who came close (with a reasonable agrigate score) to retake only the portion they failed. This seems like a reasonable response to me.
I really haven't seen any examples here at this forum of folks who are indifferent because others don't match somebody's perceived quotient of intellect. It really gets up my nose when you take the forum members here to task for being smug and indifferent. People have gone out of their way, providing stratigies, and study helps, they have pointed to curriculum that is proven to be successful and have been tireless answering specific trade, process and technical questions that will make candidates more ready for the CWI exam. You might consider making your second poste on this forum an apology for your first.
If you don't like the way AWS presents the week long seminar there are several alternatives out there, from tech colleges, to Hobart Institute, to private schools.
You have choices sir.
Nobody is making you feed the *Monster*
Plenty of folks pass that exam without the seminar or by alternative training sessions or simply by diciplined self study.
Sir,
You are right there is competition but its like competing with Microsoft. They have Apple but that is it. So much for true competition. The term competition as coined by the father of the Free Market Economy (Adam Smith) is defined by many sellers and buys. In our case we have many buyers but few suppliers and one HUGE supplier in AWS. If you consider that competition than I would suggestion you take Economics 101 to learn what you are talking about.
By Lawrence 
Date 01-26-2008 13:40
Edited 01-26-2008 13:48
David,
Thank you so much for your personal attention and your golden nuggets of wisdom. I sit at your feet and eagerly await even greater economic epiphanies to emerge from your blessed fingers.
While I wait though; I would like to note that Apple is certainly not the only outfit who is brave enough to go into competition with Microsoft. There are a number operating platforms out there and their makers are quite rich, and uncounted software programs from database to word processing that many folks prefer to Microsoft offerings.
As far as fathers of economics and how econ is defined by "defined by many sellers and buys." (sic)
Murray Rothbard, Ludwig von Mises, Walter Williams or anybody else for that matter... If they were to look on the current situation of CWI training. They would find a field rich with opportunity for growth as the government is not restraining that competition in any form.
So your plaintive cry is that there are not enough folks out there to sell you an education (AWS style CWI Exam Prep) is prolly gonna fall on deaf ears due to several facts, one being that a very large minority of CWI's never use the "system" because they garner their education in the old fashioned way of self discipline, self study and work experience.
Nonetheless, back to econ, There are hundreds of AWS section activities that offer CWI training on an ongoing basis to members. Each section also has it's own library complete with every publication necessary for study for the CWI exam. (with the exception of API 1104 so you might have to break down and buy yourself one book). Then there are the thousands of community and technical colleges who offer advanced welding courses that cover many if not all of the components found on the CWI exam such as, general processes, UT, MT, VT, PT, precision measurement, code interpretation, material behavior/metallurgy and process control, and of course these colleges have fully stocked libraries which are at the disposal of any motivated self starter.
Now you may not view the examples above as "competition," but they are without a doubt viable ways for interested learners to prepare themselves for the CWI exam.
Besides, as stated by many folks who actually are my betters in this field, the AWS CWI seminars are not designed to make you a CWI and if you expect a week long seminar to get you what you want you will be humbled.
If you think of yourself as a "buyer" of a CWI credential and the AWS as the "Huge Seller," you may want to reevaluate your paradigm.
Thank you again so much for the personal attention... I will redouble my efforts to "know what I'm talking about"
the aws seminar was never meant to teach. if you don't have the knowledge and ability to use a code before you go to the seminar, than there is a good chance you will not pass. the seminar is only to bring that knowledge up to the surface as a review. that said, i have never taken a seminar as prep for a test. i passed my cwi the first time. this just means i'm ok at taking tests not that i'm intellectually better than anyone. i have always felt that if you "need" the seminar than your probably not ready. i have never felt, or do i now feel that the seminar is geared toward any certain people. i can't follow what your trying to say.
Whao! I think someone hit a raw nerve, what has been a discussion in the shop has reached the AWS fourm. I really don't think that 'money' was attempting to critize AWS. Listen we have all complained about the exam fees. If a company is not willing to help a guy out than he's on his own with trying to save enough money to take the exam. I do know many who have taken the exam and failed it is very disheartening when one does fail.
I understood fullly what 'money' was saying. I took the exam once and failed, twice and passed for my CAWI, barely. A few years later and I really don't think that what I learned in the seminar added much to my ability to pass the exam. Certification is a wonderful thing to have, but come on fellas, We know many people who are certified and don't deserve to be. Than there are those who supervise some of us you know those QA managers who didn't pass the AWS CWI/CWE exam but have become our boss. I'm sure that there is enough
information out there to help someone pass the exam. And what is the cost of the matierals? What is the precentge for those who pass the exam the first time? By my observation it does seem like only a small percentage pass the first go around. Now as a CAWI I am faced (feel forced by AWS to take) with having to take the re exam to 'up grade'. I don't know if I can get up the money to do so. I don't know any programs, CWI's or SCWI's who will extend a helping hand to me to help me pay for or help me to pass the exam, my company won't do it for the reason "what if you leave when you pass the exam".
Thank goodness for AWS, I'm glad that they're there for the masses. But honestly, The price is very high for a large percentage of us.
Da,
Oh there is plenty to criticize when it comes to the AWS... But blame? I think that goes too far.
Price of study materials and code books is outrageous in many cases, considering the bulk of the work and editing of these standards is done by volunteers.
The only "raw nerve" for me is the suggestion that posters here at this particular forum are aloof or unresponsive to folks who are looking for guidance or mentoring or help of any reasonable kind.. Just a brief search will reveal mountains of assistance the experts here have to offer. The archives of this forum attend to many technical inquiries with greater depth than any textbook and better professional advice than any seminar. Some of us may be a bit blunt, but that is just how some folks communicate. Those same gruff voices are often the very individuals who have actually sat on code, process, or education committees that are pertenant to the questions.. I don't think you will find that kind of experience for free any other place on the planet.
If I came across as "sticking up" for the AWS, that was not my intention, but making them the target for blame is not realisitic either.
I hesitated responding to this post for a number of reasons. But here goes nothing.
Any one that has taken the time to do a search of the threads on this forum for information and advice on the CWI examination will quickly notice that time and time again it is suggested that the individual taking the seminar and examination prepare before attending the seminar and if possible, delay taking the examination to allow for additional time to review the material after completing the seminar.
I'm not a "full time" instructor for the AWS. However, I have served as a "last minute" substitute on a few occasions and I have taught the CWI review several times for clients that wanted an "in-house" program.
It never fails to amaze me that nearly half of those attending the AWS seminar never crack a book before attending the class. They expect the seminar instructor to "teach the examination" and everything else needed to become a functional CWI. Then there are a few that expect the instructor to go over the exam questions and when they discover that is not the case, all hell breaks out about how they got ripped off by the AWS.
I have absolutely no sympathy for those individuals. I've never once seen an ankle chained to the table leg. I've even offered to hold the door open while they march their sorry asses out of the class. The funny thing is they never leave, they would rather fuss and throw temper tantrums for the entire week.
On the other hand, I've had individuals that have completed the work book and studied all the material for several months before attending the seminar. They are attentive and are of the mind-set that the seminar is a "review" to refresh their memory of all the information they have already read and learned. Most of those people do pretty well on the examination.
There are a few people that study till the cows come home, but still struggle with taking tests of any sort. I do sympathize for them. They do the work, they know the information, but they get "brain freeze" on the day of the examination. To those unlucky few I say; taking an examination is like any other exercise, in this case you have to exercise the brain by taking as many timed practice examinations as possible to get used to taking tests where there is a time limit. The more tests you take, the easier it is to take the test without "freezing". The other thing to do is practice using a separate answer sheet. Again, it is a "skill" that can cause frustration if the individual is used to simply "circling the answer".
I wonder if there is a connection between proper preparation and study before the seminar and passing the examination or "cram like a high school student" the night before the examination and wonder why they didn't pass the examination.
I took a PE Review to wake up my long dormant brain matter several years ago. I wonder how many people attending that seminar thought they would pass their PE examinations without ever attending college or studying for several months before the examinations.
No one told me life comes with a free lunch. No one paid for my education (other than my wife and kids) or my certifications. As for the CWI examination and the SCWI examination, I paid out of my own pocket and I couldn't afford to attend the seminar. I didn't pass the examinations because I have superior intelligence (anyone that knows me can attest to that). I studied for nearly a year before taking the CWI examination and I did the same in preparation for the SCWI. I'm not going to tell anyone that either examination was "easy". They are damn difficult and it takes a lot of work and study to learn the information needed to pass the examinations. However, unlike other organizations that offer "certification examinations", AWS does not require or mandate their seminar or their study materials as a prerequisite for taking the examination. As Lawrence said, there are options available.
Al
I agree!! I couldn't afford the seminar and chose to study on my own. I studied for a year, reading everything I could. I took the practice test in the Cert Manual and had my wife grade me but not tell me the right answer. I would look it up and try to find why I was wrong. I was really nervous on test day not having attended the seminar and especially when they told me that very few pass their first time around. I gave it my best shot and found the test, not easy, but familiar to what I had studied. I heard so much about how hard the hands on part was that I left the test sure that I failed because I thought it was pretty straight forward. Anyway I passed with a 91% average on my first try. I think it boils down to diligence because lord knows I am not the brightest light bulb in the building. But I studied and studied and tried to learn from everyone else on this forum and in the workplace. I cannot speak for the value of the seminar but agree that it should merely be a refresher for the studying you do on your own.
My 2 cents!
Lar,
Anyone that tries to say that the forum members do not lend a helping hand or offer advice for studying to take the CWI Exam....hasn't used the search function at all...period.<laziness will not help you pass a 6 hr exam>
If you type in "CWI Exam", you will get
5 pages of hits on this topic....most of which is nothing more than folks asking questions about how to prepare and study for the Exam, and hundreds of replies back from those of us who have passed it and are willing to share the study methods that worked for us. I'm in agreement with you, that does strike a nerve when someone implies that the forum members here haven't tried to help others that are coming along.....
I agree with hogan. Plus, you must have the ability to read and comprehend information in a limited time period.
fran , i agree with you , hogan , AL , and lawrence , i past on first time . i think that aws teaches you how to take the test not how to learn every thing that you should know before testing . when you are ready you will pass . life styles make a difference stay out of the bar , rest up be ready and devote the proper time to study your weak points . they usually have it at a hotel or some where to get away from all the pressures we can face at home or on the job so we can concentrate on our weak points , use that to your advantage . if it was easy house-wifes would be doing it and we would be out of a job . good luck . willie
I agree with Al, as usual. I enjoyed my seminar immensely and learned all kinds of things that weren't on the test. Many of my classmates, however, had come to learn how to pass the test and had little patience for metallurgical discussion. I do wish the seminar had covered day to day paperwork strategies in more detail, but all in all I feel my knowledge base improved in depth beyond regular study. I applied myself because I enjoyed the experience. Those that merely needed the title for their job promotion pay were angry because it was hard work. Heck, my boss didn't even say congratulations. He won't even acknowledge I did it and I'm his only welder of any skill for many years. I certainly am not going to get a raise. But I am happy to have improved my knowledge.
Hello stringer, regardless of what your boss thinks or any of your co-workers might think, you are investing in your future in a very positive way. There have been plenty of other strings where this sort of thing has been mentioned. When and if you decide to move onto other places in your career it is likely that this could be a large boost for you and that is when you will realize the merit of your accomplishment. Good luck and congratulations on your dedication to improving yourself. Best regards, aevald
Thanks, aevald. I get plenty of satisfaction from my acheivement without my employer's approval. It will indeed be his loss.
One thing you will get from the seminar which will be missing in self study is the interaction with other candidates and a networking opportunity with your peers. The cost of the seminar is pretty much the cost of the self study books. IF you wait until you show up at the seminar to start studying, and are not familliar with the information, the chance, and I do stress chance, of you passing on the first try is marginal. There are a tremendous nuber of resources available if you are waiting for the seminar to get your books to study by. The CWI test is to test your knowledge of welding, welding process and basic metalurgey. It test your ability to use basic welding inspection tools and apply the use of those tools to a "code". You are given a practice code to study before the test, but the test will be different than the study material. THe final test is to measure your knowldege to a specific code. D1.1 or API 1104. If you have the opportunity to attend the seminar, even with Bubba Billy, the interaction and networking will be worth the cost of the course. You never know when someone you meet at one of these things will remember you and give you a call on something which may be the thing that puts you at a new job or opportunity.
My experience in getting my AWS/CWI came from my emploryer who told me to get my CWI. TO them, this is just a little test an with your experience you should pass it. In less than 8 weeks I got the self study material, applied for the nearest date for the test and took the test. I studied 1-2 hours a night 3-4 times a week. Now I have had a CWI certificaton in the past but it lapsed in 1998. I have taken 3 other of these types of test since 1988 when I got my original CWI so I am quite familliar withe the way the test questions are phrased. I passed with scores in the high 80's. And nearly blew it on the practical when I got stuck on two questions and instead of passing on them until I finished the test and went back I took 54 minutes on 2 questions and had to blow through the rest of them to finish within the 2 hours.
I will say there was NO question on the test which was not covered in the material. IF you study the material, undersatnd welding and inspection, this test is passable. BUt just like on a welding test, somedays is just not your day. You blow it, spool up , go home and come back another day.
On the cost, while the materials and test fee seem high, they are in line with the API program. As a budget number, if you pay full freight expect to have invested $5K in this by the time you pass. Is that a lot of money? It all depends on how you value investment in yourself. I know welders who say they want to get their CWI but it cost too much then go out and buy a 4 wheeler. About $5K for a 4 wheeler which will be worth $500 in three years or $5k in a certification which could be worth an additional $10-25K in the same period.
So AWS gets $$$ from it. We all gotta make a living and jut think of all the "special" people they gainfully employ in Miami. I see issues with AWS but also the CWI certification is a worldwide recognized professional level certification. That make is valuable and what you get from the seminar a bonus.
BABRT's
U are right. I took the test without studying so i could see what the test was all about. I passed the Fundamentals, 70% on the 1104 Code & 50% on Practical. 2nd round, i passed the Fundamentals & API 1104 code. My Practical increased 20%. That was the 2nd test. Then I decided to go to AWS seminar. I learned alot, from interacting with other people. Someone will always have an answer for u. Now, i just have to retake the Practical.-- Lesson learned-- buy all the AWS study material and study before the exam. Dont give up!
well i have got to say something. I have been studying for about a year on and off. But for the past six months every other night for about a hour and 45 min in the morning befor i go to work, and I am going to the seminar and taking the test in two weeks in Norforlk VA. well it bothers me that somebody would say that just because im going to take the seminar that " im not ready" I think that i am i just to say that it cant hurt. and so what about the money im paying for all of this on my own( my wife too) and if that is what it takes to get this for me well then by all means i will pay for it again if i have to but i will get it. SO MONEY YOU ARE WRONG
Hay moremoney,,,,,,,don't you have anything better to do.......?
