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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / High Frequency myth
- - By Kix (****) Date 09-27-2007 17:30
Can high frequency damage electrical equipment?  I know it causes interference, but what about damage?  Like for instance the ECU's on your car or smaller more fragile electrical equipment.  What about log term exposure to your body?  I know there have been issues with high voltage power lines and the radiation they give off. I searched this topic and couldn't find anything so i thought it might be good to have on hand here in the forum.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 09-27-2007 17:46
Hi freq can send out signals if not calibrated or shielded properly.  The FCC regulates it.  There is a famous story that circulates about a TIG unit at Boeing that went wacko.  It caused a robotic rivet drilling machine to drill random holes in the wrong locations in aircraft wings until it was properly shielded.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-27-2007 18:18
Electromagnetic Fields (often associated with HF)
and pace makers
http://files.aws.org/technical/facts/FACT-16.PDF

I have had a number of circuit boards and LCD boards destroyed in my D60 wire feeders (at $600 per) and the folks at Miller tell me that they are sensitive to High Frequency.......... Argh!  Well lets shield them before we take them out of BETA stage........ so you bet... HF can cause troubles

We also used to use Sciaky Ferrenti synchronized pulsed GTAW and Microplasma for air seal repair... Our power supplies were equipped with capacitor discharge units for arc starting so as not to bugger up the PC's that were hooked into the Sciaky's......... I'm pretty sure the most current welding equipment ought to be shielded from HF/EMF... but if the equipment is not engineered to be near welding... watch out!
Parent - - By smallcastle Date 11-29-2007 05:24
Lawrence,
Know the feeling. Have allot of problems with high frequency screwing up the front displays on D64M wire drive controllers and the hand pendants on ESAB posistioners. Tried earth grounding the ground terminals on the power supplies for the D64M's. Tried earth grounding the grounds on the TIG's. Earth grounding the work benches. Earth grounding the grounds on the ESAB posistioners. But we haven't had a whole lot of success mitigating the problem.
Smallcastle 
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-29-2007 11:03
Small Castle

Thats Amazing!!!!

I hate D64M feeders with the heat of a thousand suns! 

$800 bucks for a circuit board....  Blowing 1 board per year for the last 4 years...

They do not like the HF at all
Parent - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 11-30-2007 16:06
Lawrence,

We have had a similar problem, but a year ago we had a "Hillbilly" fix that has eliminated the problems.  Ooops, I hope nobody takes offense to that, I mean no harm:)

Anyway, we took the encoder feedback cable and all of the other cables inside the electrical panel and wrapped them with regular aluminum foil.  Basically making it a shielded cable.  Then we wrapped some small gage around the foil and connected it to the ground strap in the panel that ultimately is connected to the 8' earth ground.

It has not had a problem since.
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 11-29-2007 22:37
The Miller Dynasty 200 OM shows earth grounding of HF. Use a driven earth ground rod and #12 AWG wire to chassis screw of machine then a second wire to earth ground and the bench. Third, earth ground the Line disconnect device/box. Supposed to take care of stray HF. Drive it into the earth! HF is both a high frequency ac (very high 50 kHz to 3 MHz) and a high voltage (very high, about 20,000 volts!) the current is in milliamperes. Kinda like the high frequency, high voltage and low current from a car engines spark plug wire.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-27-2007 18:04
Hi Kix!

I know more than once it damaged a few "cheapo" electronic watches I wore when I was welding Aluminum, and forgot to take them off, and store them at some distance from the welding area. Btw, I really learned once from experience when I was still wet behind the ears, to always wear "cheapo" electronic watches when I damaged a not so "Cheapo" electronic watch... Man do I miss that watch! :( :( :(

Hey, It does'nt always happen right away but inevitably the Hi Freq will damage your electronic watch unless you remember to take them off and, store them at safe distance from the weld area - around a 20ft. radius distance works for me. :) :) :) Of course, this is just from my own experience! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-27-2007 20:05 Edited 09-27-2007 20:14
Just to add about the pacemakers... More than once we had to stop everyone who was GTAW Al with hi-freq in the Lab or even just using it in the start mode because, someone in an adjacent classroom of the same building, had a pacemaker...

The first time which happened approximately 5 years ago, the individual I spoke to mentioned to me that his heart rate was jumping erratically all over the place, and he felt like he was hooked up to a defribillator with a madman under control of it!!!

Well needless to say, after that incident the school policy was changed so that every student had to let the school know whether or not they had a heart pacemaker or any other electronic device implanted within their bodies, or attached to an external device, so we could accommodate them by not having any of the hi-freq run whether it was on in the starting mode, or the continuous mode during the sessions the individuals were scheduled to be in class at the same time we were in the lab until we finished properly shielding the lab from leaking anymore high frequency into the rest of the building... Thank God the first person did not sustain any permanent injury as a result of the leakage exposure.

Signs are now posted in every entrance or exit clearly stating as a warning to all individuals connected to any internal or external electronic device associated to sustaining their health, must report it to their instructor immediately before starting any course in the building... The sign continues to state that failure to report their condition to the school at all, prior to the start of any course will expose them to potential trauma that may be lethal to them... We have since repaired the leakage however at any time, someone may tamper with the shielding so we came to the conclusion to keep the signs up everywhere - just in case!!! ;)

In summary, I would strongly suggest to anyone involved with welding training or education that Hi-frequency is nothing to take lightly, and to double check their own shielding especially if you have an educational environment where in different parts of the building, other classes are being scheduled to run while the welding lab is in use...

Post warning signs at all entrances and exits so these other students are made clearly aware time, and time again of the potential dangers to them, so that the school can accommodate by scheduling their class in another building for them at least until the leak is repaired, or they can insist on having their classes in another building while the welding lab is being used during their scheduled class sessions simultaneously.

Also, to warn them via continuous monitoring before the start of any lab session, whether or not the lab is fully shielded and therefore, the building is safe for person's with these devices. We also have a policy of discouraging anyone with a pacemaker or any other electronic device no matter which brand name, from enrolling in anyone of our welding courses - PERIOD! Regardless of the most current data on some of these devices and simply put, to protect ourselves from any potential liability.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 09-27-2007 20:13
Now that you talk about your watch i can remember back when i used to have pagers.  I kept screwing them all up and i figured welding had something to do with it.  I missed many a calls because i would be welding and i'd look down to see what time it was on my pager and it would be turned off.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-28-2007 03:05
The cables to a TIG torch, the work, and ground cables act as transmitter antennas, so the area around HF tig welding WILL HAVE HF radiation even if the machine and incoming power cables are shielded and grounded properly. I know first hand of a TIG welder interfering with an  early '80s vintage adding machine in the same building, but it did not damage it.. Most modern vehicle manuals say to unhook the battery cables before any welding is done on the vehicle.
Parent - - By dmilesdot (**) Date 11-29-2007 19:25
Back in the early 80's I had an Airco tig machine with high freq.  Everytime I turned it on my neighbor's garage door would cycle up and down.  It got so annoying to him, I started calling him before I turned the machine on so that he could unplug his garage door opener.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 11-29-2007 19:53
dmilesdot, I bet he was really happy when you got rid of that machine, moved, or he moved. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 11-30-2007 00:22
Kix and to all.....simply put any excited radio, uhf, vhf etc. can induce electrical current in any conductor that is subjected to it....the amount of voltage induced and therefore current potential is directly related to the strength of the signal.   This is a post from another thread where it was asked if standard high frequency could cause any damage to CNC circuitry.  

post: http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=74997;hl=high%20freq#pid74997

"Tom  I could not tell you exactly what freq the arc start will be on DCEN but definitely on the majority of older machines it will be the same as the constant high freq but will last only say .5-1sec.    The problem here in lies with the amount of current flowing thru a given conductor with this high frequency superimposed over it.....more current equals more wattage therefore more transmission power available thru the open air to be captured by other conductors like circut boards in CNC equipment.   Most CNC equipment built after 1980 or so (please dont make me pull out NEC code) is rated for a certain amount of shielding capability on the controls.  Modern stuff is well shielded against interference.  The problem specifically occurs when there is a reasonable wattage (think power) radio freq transmitter is nearby.  The power (wattage) is high enough to induce emf (electro motive force) in anything conductive nearby.  This in turn can induct  current in said conductors and cause failures.  Most electronic circuts built on the principals of the transistor only require .7 volts or less to function.  A high wattage radio transmitter can easily induce more voltage than .5 volts in a nearby conductor.  Therefore high freq ....it can shut it off or do any function inadvertently that can occur by the push of button on its controls any other device which functions on a solid state circuitry built on the premiss's of less then a volt unless its properly shielded by modern technology. 

A great example of this is the cheap cd boombox attached to my toolbox...it works fine most of the time but when I am playing a cd sometimes when welding aluminum (only aluminum) it will shut completely off an arc start....it laks quality shielding   Well imagine having two or more hours into a program on a cnc and the welder strikes an arc and its GONE....That is a reality Tom Cooper....on newer machines I do not see it happening.......but anything pre 1985  you betcha.....and even on modern machines if the shop electrical supply is improperly setup...a good backfeed could cause the same result.  Look in the CNC cabinets do you see coaxial wire and aluminum strips on the cabinets.

Now as far as making shielding to prevent such I say look at the common coax cable built from space technology......a conductor inside a shield which is also part of the signal.    The reason that shield works is the woven strands...geometry....opposite directions but still connected....ok you see the idea...it has to do with magnetic poles and how radiation can can conduct itself.    If the shielding is aligned 90 degrees against (each other' itself":molecularly" then it will cancel itself out in propagation (wattage) from the source.  It works the same essentially with an induced signal ......the cross conductors eat away the influence of the signal power wise.  So in other words a ferrous conductor woven in the traditional basket weave method makes a powerful shield against any high freq or other radio signal now matter what the wattage for all intents and purposes.

So in summery I can say without question the fears of your machinists are grounded in hard scientific fact.....check to make sure their controls are safe before venturing into their space."

I hope that sheds a bit of light into the mystery
Best Regards
Tommy
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 11-30-2007 13:22
Very informative Tommy!  Good stuff....
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / High Frequency myth

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