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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Many Questions On A Double Bevel CJP Procedure.
- - By tom cooper (**) Date 10-14-2007 12:10
I will be qualifying a new procedure using a CJP double bevel butt joint on 3/4" plate (just to be clear, one of the test plates will be double beveled at 45 degrees & 1/8" land,  the other test plate will be square edged.) (same as D1.1 joint B-U5a on page 97, Fig 3.4). Test plates will be FLAT for the PQR.

1.  What is the purpose of the small "beta" angle shown only on one side of the joint?

2.  Will this PQR apply to a CJP double bevel T-joint, if the beveled member is oriented vertically and intersecting plate is horizontal?  It seems to me that the T-joint weld may actually be in HORIZONTAL position whereas the PQR weld was welded in FLAT position.

3.  Same question applies to future welder qualification.

4.  Under what conditions would you prefer to do a CJP double J-groove T-joint instead of a CJP double bevel T-joint? I have an idea that the T-joint configuration is considered highly restrained and so maybe the J-groove is more crack resistant when dealing with high strength Q&T alloys? Am I reaching too far on that?

5.  When is it recommended to do a full metal weld tension test as part of PQR's?

6.  Finally, what determines the size of the root opening for a joint like this? I notice the D1.1 prequalified figures show root openings of " 0 - 1/8  ". 

Posting 6 questions in one post is probably pushing the limit, so any answer to any question(s) will be helpful. Thankyou.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-14-2007 17:28
I use the beta angle when welding in the horizontal position. It is very useful when welding with a welding process that utilizes a flux shielding system. The beta angle allows the slag to "run" out of the weld puddle instead of building up in front of the arc.

What welding standard are you welding to? It makes a difference when it comes to the positions qualified. If you are welding to AWS D1.1, the answer is different from that for ASME.

The same applies to welder qualification relative to the positions qualified.

The question of preference is often dictated by the means available for preparing the weld joint. Bevels can be prepared with an oxy-fuel or plasma cutting equipment before assembly. Whereas if you are going to tack the members together first, you can use a carbon arc gouging equipment to prepare the J or U grooves very easily once they are tack welded together.

Full weld metal tensile tests are performed when required by the applicable welding standard.

In some cases the root opening is the result of preparing the materials, i.e., the plate was cut twice and it's still too short, or it is done intentionally to allow the welded root bead to contract as it cools without cracking. There are times when I insert an annealed steel wire in the joint to maintain a root opening during fit-up to accommodate the contraction (similar to the root gap used in a socket pipe joint.). The wire is removed once the joint is tack welded. This technique is suggested by Omar Blodgett and works very well.

In other instances, a zero root opening is preferred to hold dimensions and the weld deposit is forced to accommodate any contraction during cooling.

I don't know if this helps, but based on the information provided, it is a starting point for you.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 10-14-2007 21:23
Thanks Al-
This is for a D1.1 requirement.  Is the orientation on the test plates FLAT but the T-joint I described is HORIZONTAL ? I am having a hard time visuallizing if this two joints are really in a different position.

The question of double bevel or double J-groove is now confusing; if a drawing calls for "double V-groove", can the production welders choose to substitute double J-groove configuration if circumstance that you describe warrent, or is that something critical to where the engineer or customer needs to agree?
Regards.
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 10-14-2007 22:51
the T-joint you described is horizontal if i understand it correctly!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-15-2007 02:54
The test position you describe is flat and it would not qualify for grooves in the horizontal position per Table 4.1 in D1.1. Think of the T-joint used for qualifying welders for fillet welds. If the non-butting member is horizontal and the butting member is vertical, the position of the joint is horizontal.

As for the welder taking it upon themselves to modify the groove from that shown on the approved drawing, that would be a non-conformance in my book. Once the drawing specifies a particular groove detail, that's what has to be used unless an alternate detail is approved by the engineer (or customer). There is no reason for the welders to hesitate making a request for a drawing change if they believe it is beneficial.  However, it has to go through the approval cycle before being implemented. There may be a specific reason the engineer called for a particular groove detail.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Many Questions On A Double Bevel CJP Procedure.

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