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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / pipe welding/magnetism
- - By Sourdough (****) Date 11-20-2007 03:43
I have never had a clear answer to this question. It seems like at any given place on some pipe welds there is a time when your arc seems to stick to one side. As soon as this happens I break off, grind my stop and proceed with a new rod, usually with better arc control. What the hell is going on?

AND - sometimes on a root bead my arc wants to curl in on one side and I constantly put pressure back and forth to tie in on the side that wont draw my arc. What is this? I have always dreaded xray on welds like this, but have always passed. To me it always seemed like I wasn't tying in at all on one side of the work, but I was.

Also on the hot pass: I sometimes get to a short stretch on this pass, (always at a different position), where my arc is sometimes completely irradic. The only way I can counteract this is by gouging and oscillating like crazy.

Am I right to assume that the parts or pipe are magnetic where the seam in "seamless" pipe ought to be? The length of "magnetism" is always concurrent with the diameter of pipe.

Long crappy pass - bigger pipe........
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-20-2007 04:58
To me what you describe is three seperate issues.

1 possible thermal arc blow
2 magnetic arc blow
3 a ground being located one side or the other and setting up detrimental arc ground to one side or the other.

As for where a seam would be on seamless pipe, there is no seam. There are three prevalent processes for manufacture of Seamless Pipe

Plug Mill - Larger diameters, an ingot is heated to just below melting point, and pierced. The hole is is enlarged on a rotary machine, in the resulting tube (bloom) a plug near the size of the finish diamter is forced in. It's then sent through rolls of a plug mill with each succeeding pass reducing the wall thickness. When it's near size, it's moved to a reeling mill and reducing mill which brings it to it's final finish dimension. After that comes heat treat straighting inspection etc.

Mandrel Mill - for smaller size pipe typically 1 through about 8" an ingot is heated the same as a plug mill and pierced the same. A mandrel is inserted and then it's passed through a rolling mill The key difference between plug and mandrel is the wall thickness is reduced continuously with pairs of curved rollers set at 90 degrees. When it's near size it's reheated and passed through a stretch reducing mill to final diameter and final T. the rest is the same as the plug mill.

Extrusion - This is for small tubes only. A bar stock is cut and heated before being sized and descaled. It's then passed through a steel extruding die. The final size is similar to Mandrel final stage.

Therefore, if you have a seam at all, you don't have seamless pipe. Now for ERW and HFI welded seam pipe you can run into some where the seam is not readily apparent.
That is another story.

As for the remainder, There is nothing more on the magnetism that can be added that I did not already mention to my knowledge. Others feel free to chime in.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By NDTIII (***) Date 11-20-2007 05:01
Sourdough, I have seen pipes on pipelines that were magnetized to the point where you could stick electrodes on the bevel and they would stick. We think they became magnetic by being stored under high tension power lines or possibly the FBE Coating process. In any case the pipes seemed to habe a high magnetic permeability.

We would have to wrap AC coils around the pipe and run AC current through it during welding. This seemed to neutralize the magnetic field in the pipe. AC is how you demagnetize parts anyway.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-20-2007 05:21
I've seen the same thing. Best thing to do is invest in a guass meter so as to check it rather than be guessing. If you have the problem, as NDTIII mentioned, it can be dealt with in numerious ways if in fact it is magnetic arc blow.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 11-21-2007 00:35
Thanks fellas.

There is nothing more frustrating than putting in a beautiful pass,and then it all goes to hell in a hurry. Every bit of this pre-fab is xray passed, or go home.

I keep er hot and sometimes either gouge, or long arc depending on my position on the pipe. These techniques work for good tie in and penetration, but it sure makes your beautiful pass look mediocre.
Parent - - By gillyson Date 11-21-2007 21:28
Sourdough,

      Have experienced this lots!!  Thought it was my lack of experience, (broke out a year ago) until I asked a seasoned pipeliner.  He told me that due to the high demand of rods, the part of the machine that holds the rods as they are coated wear out and the result of this is the flux is thicker on one side of the electrode than the other. Hence the fingernailing.  Could be BS, but he said he got the info from an inspector who visited the plant where Lincoln manufactures electrodes.  Recently we got a half pallet of 3/16 hippy that was so bad you could visually see it. The co returned them. Even now with primarily good rod there are 10 to 15 rods per box that have a crack from end to end in the flux. My helper notices them except on bad hangover days.(which occur quite often).

  Also, (a question) what is up with the big bulge in the flux as you are welding about an inch away from the arc? Have any of you noticed this on some hippy rod? I have noticed that my arc is very irradic when this occurs and is usually on the bottom.  Am I just running too hot? 
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 11-22-2007 21:25
I have experianced the bulge on a few occasions, but mine was on FCAW and i noticed its from the air not having an escape route (a sealed pipe for instance) if you grind it out you'll see its contaminated weld by the atmosphere. a weep hole should help solve it!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-23-2007 13:31
Do a search on magnetism on this forum. We've discussed this problem in several threads. Look for Stephan's post.

Be regards - Al
Parent - By dobsalot (**) Date 11-25-2007 14:44
I have expierienced this while making a pipeline repair.  We cut out the bad section of pipe, then when we installed the new joint of pipe, one end welded up fine then the other end had a little to much gap and the arc was being affected by the magnatism trying to pass across the gap!  Clamp something across the gap, such as apiece of angle or some sort of jumperwire. this allows the magnatism to go where  it wants  to. Once the stringer bead was in it welded like it was suposed to. I don't know if  this is your situation but  it sure helped me make that weld.
Parent - - By Bonniweldor (**) Date 11-26-2007 19:42
Pipe is mangnetized by various industrial causes, intentional and circumstatial, and possilby by local geomagnetic effects.  Magnetic fields in the pipe during welding may be peexisting or generated by the high amperage DC current.  The two fields likely interact in some non linear way during welding, or field effects oscillate, hence noticable changes in arc behaviour during welding.  The best treatment appears to be magnetic hysteresis treatment of the pipe ends before welding. 

Diameter is not an intrisic factor for field strength, but more mass of similarly magnetized material would have a percieved stronger effect.

ERW pipe seam is made by high frequency AC current, which acts to reject resultant common orientation of magnetic domains, ie many randomly distributed local domains cancel each others magnetic fields.  Seamless pipe would be magnetized due to industrial processes applied to the pipe, not due to any phantom seam artefact.

Be carful the accuracy of magnetic field measurements at pipe ends.  The probes have specific orientation relationships that must be matched to the field direction in order to have an accurate reading.  I have found no inspectors that are familiar with this physical detail.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-26-2007 20:47
You are working with the wrong inspectors.

Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / pipe welding/magnetism

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