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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / For dbigkahunna and other cwi's
- - By knslash (*) Date 11-28-2007 07:43
Back in the early 80's when I broke out in oilfield I was taught to always grind the stringer bead on pipe, then hotpass, brush, filler pass(es) as required, brush, then cap.  This is the proceedure that I still use today in my pipe work and in testing for the companies that I work for. I have learned over the years to talk with my inspectors so as to fully understand what they want and don't want to see during the tests, and have not had any negative feedback on grinding stirngers. However, if there is a new view on pipe stringers I am open to change as I need to stay current with new trends in piping. So, would you enlighten me on the subject of stringers and your oppinions of the matter?

Thanks-
Ray
Parent - - By new tito (***) Date 11-28-2007 15:14
knslash, I believe you will get numerous opinions on this issue.  Just do a search on this forum for question..try "grinding", "qualification", "testing", or any other keyword that may bring up the post.  There was a rather lengthy one a while back.

Now, for my answer - I allow the use of grinders for weld tests - that's all I will say.

There are a wide variety of opinions on this subject, so what I would suggest is to also learn how to weld the test without a grinder.  Inspectors, just as welders, are all different and do things differently.  Some will allow grinders, some will not....also depends on what code or in-house standards are in place.  I would also suggest finding out BEFORE the test what the requirements are, so you are fully prepared.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-28-2007 19:43
I let them use what they will have during production.  If you can use a grinder in production then why not let em use it on a test.  If your looking for the really good guys that can do it with out a grinder then you might be looking for a while depending on your location.
Parent - - By knslash (*) Date 11-28-2007 22:47
Thanks for the input guys. I totally agree that the welder needs to fully understand what is expected from him before testing begins.  The CWI 's word is law as far as I'm concerned, no arguing, no whining, just weld.
Back to the subject, I was taught grinding the stringer helps the hot pass push the stringer into the pipe and cuts down on wagon tracks. Any thoughts? But as I said, If the trend is to not grind thats not any problem. I'm just trying to get different views on what other inspectors look for and this site has many knowlegable people to learn from. In the end, I know that any time I roll up to a job the inspector will lay the test out for us and to proceed as instructed.
thanks-
Ray
Parent - By ZCat (***) Date 11-29-2007 00:07 Edited 11-29-2007 00:11
It just depends on the job. If you get on a thin wall pipeline they might give you a cutout if you bounce the grinder outside the bevel. Other places such as refineries usually aren't so strict.

One pipeline welder told me he was running hot passes on a line once, the inspector told him if he saw that file in his bucket one more time he was runnofft.
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 11-29-2007 00:27
I broke out not grinding the bead. The view was if you could not get the waggon tracks out withe the hot pass, then you were not a welder. Company specifications have changed since I started. I have worked on Xcountry projects where the 100% bead w/o any gp was required. If the bead was not ground, you could not make the weld. You will get a better weld grinding the bead. I let every welder grind the bead. What I do not allow is the welder massaging the grove before putting the bead in. Or if the grove closes up running the grinding disk around the pipe to open it up. One issue the pipeline companies ran into was bead cracks because between the bead and hot pass the grinding hand would take out too much metal, the pipe would be set on the skids and "CRACK". When welding X60 and higher most companies require a 100% hold on the bead and HP and not allow the pipe on the skids until at least 50% of the hot pass is on before the pipe is set on the skids. I always allow grinding on the stops and stops on a test. But that is just hitting it. When I see a welder using the grinder a lot, he is not having a good day. A good welder can pass a pipeline test without using a grinder. On the bead or anywhere else. Does it make for a better weld. Sure. A lot of welders do not understand good grinding skills will not make up for poor welding skills. I hear welders telling new guys "tricks" to beat the iron horse. I have bent and pulled thousands of coupons and never seen a grinder help a poor welder.
BABRT's
Parent - By knslash (*) Date 11-29-2007 01:11
Thanks again, I really appreciate everyone who has taken time to reply to this post! This site is helpful and informative, and manned by a first-rate crew.

thanks-
Ray


    dbk- do you ever slip over the border into N.M.?
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 11-30-2007 03:19
Kahunna has a good point. If you grind, (too much), on your root than you open yourself up to a burn through, that will fail any test. Plus you grind away your potential to fill to the appropriate level for your cap.
Parent - - By knslash (*) Date 11-30-2007 04:05
Sourdough, you are correct. Burn through is possible, but proper technique should prevent those problems. Please don't think I'm being argumentative, I appreciate everyone's input. In fact, this morning I instructed my crew to start running pipe stringers without grinding unless they encounter problems. Best to be proficent in both techniques by my way of thinking.

Thanks-
Ray
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-30-2007 04:24
A guy who used to live near Me said when He was welding piplines ['50s & '60s] that they had to grind each layer smooth before welding the next. I don't know if that was true or not, but His point was that NOBODY liked eating grinder grit, so the got good at putting down a uniform bead to keep the grinding to a minimum. When He moved to My area He was a maintnance boss for Inerstate Energy.
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 11-30-2007 04:54
DaveBoyer, electric grinders didn't show up on pipeline jobs until the late 60's and early 70's.
Before that the helpers did their work with a block brush and a file.

JTMcC.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-29-2007 03:01
It's a test, can the welder make a sound weld or not. Once again, I'll say that insofar as possible, I will only go to the letter of the code. Given your reference to pipe and oil field, I'll Use ASME Section IX and API 1104 as examples
However; Section IX has a little sentence that states:
"The performance test may be terminated at any stage of the testing procedure, whenever it becomes apparent to the supervisor conducting the tests that the welder or welding operator does not have the required skill to produce results."

When testing to API 1104 the only latitude afforded the supervisor/inspector is in the following paragraph:
"For a qualification test weld to meet the requirements for
visual examination, the weld shall be free from cracks, inadequate
penetration, and burn-through, and must present a neat
workman-like appearance."

Assuming there are no company specific work instructions, nor any other instruction in writing ASME Section IX allows far more latitude for inspector opinion than does 1104.
In effect, the inspector is given the latitude to determine what constitutes "apparent" and "required skills".

In 1104 the latitude comes in the cap. The final weld must have a "neat workman-like appearance". That to is opening the door for inspector interpretation but only insofar as the final weld is concerned. That is in contrast to Section IX in which it could be at any point in the process.

To my specific answer now:

For Section IX test, if I get the impression the grinder is being used as a crutch, I'll bust him out under the apparent clause. If they are using it in a manner that is consistent with good work practices in the field, I'll let it ride. (good work practices being grind stop starts, or small areas where the bead isn't just so etc. this in contrast to bad work practices where the bead looks like hell the entire length and they use it to take off half the bead just to get a smooth surface to start with again.)

1104 does not give that option directly. The emphasis for it is on the appearance of the cap / root.
My experience tells me, if they can't make the root or cap "neat-workman-like appearance" the likelihood of making the fill is near to zero.
I will have made it clear before hand that the root is to be inspected before continuation of test if accessible. If it looks good, I stand back and watch.
The welder can grind till hell freezes over as there is nothing specific I can say code wise. However; when it comes to the cap, and they are still grinding heavy,
that's the end of the road for them. neat-workman like appearance does not mean ground smooth to me, it means laid in properly with only start stops and slag cleaning allowed.

For all of them the intent is to make a sound weld with 1104 throwing in the only clause for busting ugly that I am aware of.

Either way you cut it, if i see the welder knows what they are doing, I say nothing about grinding if they use it properly. In neither case would I allow using the grinder to make the final pretty.

My opinion for what it's worth,
Gerald
Parent - By knslash (*) Date 11-29-2007 05:11
Thanks, your proceedure mirrors 99% of my personal experiance with testing. I've never felt that an inspector was being overly zealous. They are there to make sure that the prospective welders are indeed qualified for the job at hand. All parties, ( employer, welders, inspectors) benefit from high standards through good production for the company and higher wages for the welders.

Thanks for your time-
Ray
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / For dbigkahunna and other cwi's

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