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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / BORON LESS THAN 0.0005
- - By mujibali_m_a (*) Date 11-28-2007 08:16
WHY SOME SPECIFICATION ASKS FOR BORON LESS THAN 0.0005 FOR CARBON STEEL FITTINGS. WHAT IS TEST METHOD USED TO GET THE ACCURACY IN THIS RANGE?
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 11-28-2007 14:37
What specifications?
Why?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-29-2007 03:55
I think maybe the .0005 has some added zeros that shouldn't be there.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 11-29-2007 14:40
Having a little trouble with my messaging.
In any case, the lowest I remember seeing for Boron has been 2 digits. Anything lower would certainly be for some special application.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-28-2007 21:42
Your going to have to provide more details if you want an answer.
Parent - - By PhilThomas (**) Date 11-29-2007 03:44
You'll probably have to have it done wet using a mass spec by a well outfitted lab - that is a very low level to detect!  Even in our crack-sensitive cobalt alloys we only check to see that it is less than 0.007.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-29-2007 04:29 Edited 12-01-2007 06:55
The only time I've ever seen that kind of spec .0005 has been on a high end mil project (edit in process of researching my next post, I found some data from petrochem days in material testing I had forgotten. There are in fact specs of that nature there, but as stated in the next post, their not usual). For that they used a FT-ICR. It's capable of measuring down to -10^5 depending on the element. Fourier transform ion cyclotron resonance mass spectrometer units are not cheap, and typically only reside in research institutes and other orgs with very deep pockets.
Standard MS units are not capable of the accuracy the poster is stating, nor does it need to be for 99.99 percent of industrial applications.

I'd be pretty damn curious what the material is and for what application.

a link for the curious
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/magnetacademy/fticr/
Parent - - By mujibali_m_a (*) Date 11-29-2007 04:51
SPECIFICATION I MENTIONED HERE IS SAUDI ARAMCO MATERIAL SYSTEM SPECIFICATION FOR A234 WPB FITTINGS TO BE USED IN SOUR SERVICE. CHEMICAL ANAYSIS FOR THE MATERIAL ASKS FOR THE BORON CONTENT NOT TO EXCEED 0.0005%. BORON HAS ANY HARMFUL EFFECT ON WELDING?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-29-2007 04:54
Depending on the materials, yes.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 11-29-2007 14:45
Boron that low for A234 WPB ( a common carbon steel)? Seems unnecessarily restrictive. And it may be a 234 but it will certainly be a 234 you pay through the  nose for (might be cheaper just to go with a higher alloy) and wait a long while for. It ain't just sittin on the shelf.
As for welding alloys with boron, it is used as a strengthener in low volume percents. In higher volume percents it can increase sensitivity to cracking because of its hardenability influence.
If there is some special chemical problem with boron and sour service perhaps Giovanni can help us. I have no idea.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 11-29-2007 14:55
I gotta look it up to remind myself but I think boron in larger volume percents also increases hot cracking tendencies. But thats in like the higher double digit ranges not 4 digit ranges.
Boron has essentially spawned a whole family of alloys utilizing its strengthening mechanism. Sometimes its reported, sometimes its actually even listed as part of the nominal chemistry. But sometimes its just there, the manufacturers know it, they use it, of course, but don't report it because they don't have to if held below a certain threshold.
It can be added to increase strength where there is a wish to limit carbon. If it is added to certain limited levels it has little or no effect on ductility. Very similar to limited levels of vanadium, columbium, and other strengthening alloys.
Manufacturers like tossing in other alloys because the effects are often not accumulative.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-29-2007 16:26
Something doesn't sound right about this material. I agree with your comments, 4 digits is awfully low.
Parent - - By Bonniweldor (**) Date 11-29-2007 18:27 Edited 11-29-2007 18:30
Boron in pipe materials for oil and gas service is regurarly specified by the majors to be less than 0.0005 wt.%, and pipe is provided meeting that requirement.  Boron is a potent hardening element in the iron/steel alloy system.  In other products, the same boron restriction may or may not be appropriate or practical for the respective producing industry, and its inclusion in a specfication may be only uninformed expropriation from such as a restrictive pipe spec. 
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-01-2007 06:52
It may be a company spec, but It's not in documents like API 5L, 5CT, etc. In ASME section II (04) Part A the tightest general variance is +- .005 for nitrogen per SA-6/SA-6M.
In part C SFA 5.1 through 5.26, no such tight tolerances are standard. (in saying that, you are correct in that there are some special circumstances in which the petrochem world uses it)

As for NACE 472 "Methods and Controls to Prevent In-Service Environmental Cracking of Carbon Steel Weldments in Corrosive Petroleum Refining Environments"

1.2 This standard covers only carbon steels classified as
P-1, Group 1 or 2. These classifications can be found in
the ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Section IX,'
ASMEĆ­ANSI B31.3 Code for Pressure Piping, or API
Standards 620 and 650. It excludes steels over 480 MPa
(70,000 psi) minimum specified tensile strength. Other
materials may be vulnerable to cracking, but these
materials are outside the scope of this standard.

5.2.3 Maximum contents for each deliberately added
microalloying element (such as Cb, V, Ti, and B)
should not exceed the corresponding value on the
test sample. Deliberate additions are generally
considered to be greater than 0.01% for each of Cb,
V, and Ti, and greater than 0.0005% of B.

"Ladle Analysis
A term applied to the chemical analysis representative of a heat of steel as reported by the producer. It is determined by analyzing a test ingot sample obtained during the pouring of the steel from a ladle."

Which In America leads to ASTM A751 "Standard Test Methods, Practices, and Terminology for Chemical Analysis of Steel Products."
The edition I have is 01, current edition is 07, but I doubt much has changed in this regards.
In it is referenced E29 "Standard Practice for Using Significant Digits in Test Data to Determine Conformance with Specifications"
Starting with E29 There are two methods for listing the requirements. Those are absolute and rounded.
Absolute is as it implies, anything out of the specified range is unacceptable. For instance, a designation of .03 percent carbon max. The same works for minimums.
rounded being
"6. Rounding Method
6.1 Where Applicable--The rounding method applies where
it is the intent that a limited number of digits in an observed
value or a calculated value are to be considered significant for
purposes of determining conformance with specifications."

Using icp tolerances can get down to .0002. +-.0001 or with FT-ICR down to .00005 +-.00002

Care must be taken when speaking in terms of absolutes, and is addressed in E29.

The point of all this is, it's not as common as it is being made out to be. I wouldn't want someone reading this thread at a later date thinking this is common place because it is not, and could lead to some trouble down the road for that person. Having said that, in some very specific incidences, various industries will call for these tight tolerances, but it is most definitely not a usual part of the codes and standards. I have some experience with the "majors" as you call them in the area of materials testing, I have seen what you are stating, but again, it's a special circumstance, not run of the mill daily operation.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By troilite (*) Date 11-30-2007 22:05
I believe this limit is from NACE RP0472.  Boron is believed to be a hardening agent and maintaining weldment hardnesses below 248 HV is essential in sour service.

Section 5.2.3 states that boron above 0.0005 wt% is a deliberate addition (i.e. is added as a microalloying element).
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