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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / CIT - ever heard of this?
- - By Stephan (***) Date 12-04-2007 17:58
Hey Fellows,

honestly I do not know if the "Shop Talk" section might be the "correct" one for asking the following question, since I guess this might rather be one for the "Inspectors" among us.

I had the great opportunity when I was in Houston TX to talk to an expert in "AUT" (Automated Ultrasonic Testing).

He, and his colleague, are contractors for a large Texas Pipeline Welding Company and perform the necessary NDT for them.

To be honest I have never heard of "AUT" before. The only "thing" I knew was the manually Ultrasonic Testing which I have seen, for instance, at the last AWS Show (together with Lawrence and Al).

And then this...

I was extremely impressed by the equipment these guys were using for accomplishing their job. Tremendously!

What I learned as well was the fact, that  e v e r y  joint is meanwhile being examined by using AUT but not by using Radiography, what actually was not my thought before I have been in Houston.

The NDT fellow was truly friendly, quite open, and explained patiently all my questions and it was fascinating to hear and see what is possible to carry out today by using most modern techniques.

Well, so far so good. I - lucky to having learned something new again - went back to Europe certain to having seen the most advanced technology being available today. Even "AUT"...

And then happened something which could actually top what I have seen in Houston. And this is what my question goes to.

When I participated the last IIW Sub Commission XI-E (Transmission Pipelines) Meeting in England there was held a presentation dealing with a new technology called "Computerised Information Technology" (CIT), see also: http://www.cituk-online.com.

It was extremely interesting to listen to S.C. Sood who was the Chairman/Managing Director of CIT and who held the presentation over there in Cranfield.

This new Radiography technology is much more accurate compared with AUT and is providing outstanding features, having truly astonished me.

Well, as Lawrence already posted once in another topic. I am far from being an NDT expert and thus surely quite easier to impress than the real NDT-experts in the forum. However, I was impressed and that not less...

But my question is to you: " Has anybody of you ever heard of, or perhaps even worked with the CIT System in the United States?"

Every little information and response is greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance and best regards,
Stephan
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 12-04-2007 18:58
ut and rt are advancing very quickly. it is amazing what has been achieved in the last 15 years. try looking into ultrasonic phased array inspection
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-04-2007 19:42 Edited 12-04-2007 21:21
Stephan,

Yes I've heard of it.

There are two primary variants of digital radiography.

Variant 1 uses a phosphor plate in place of the film (CR radiography). The shot is taken per normal means but the plate is developed via a laser scan.
The laser picks up minute variations in how the phosphor coating was affected, and translates that information to an image.
There are several benefits to this method, one is inherent higher latitude, and lower required impingement energy required to achieve and exposure (usually on the order of 1/5th as compared to normal film)
When coupled with smaller sources sizes, proper resolution can be obtained as well. During review, the image can be adjusted to see things that would not normally be visible as the various layers of the phosphor coating are read, this in contrast to the unaffected or partially affected silver halide crystals of the standard method being wiped away  leaving a single layer image.

Variant 2 uses electronic ccd's or CMOS to pick up the image. Many of them will first convert the impingement energy to light using a Gd02S layer. Some use hybrids where the impingement energy is directly converted to an electrical signal. Methods under variant two fall into the terms real time radiography, Computed tomography etc.

I've used several of the digital methods (realtime, CR etc) , and I've used AUT in several variations as well.

AUT in it's simplest form is strapping a transducer to an automated carriage which keeps track of position and correlates it to a computer read out.

AUT comes in many forms just as Digital radiogaphy does. It comes in Shear, Refracted longintudinal, RL Round trip tandem, surface waves, creep, secondary creep, horizontally opposed shear waves, etc, then there is the Time of flight diffraction, Phased array, EMAT, Laser ultrasonics, as well as some others I have used.
All can be mixed and matched to tune the system for the exact inspection system needed.

At one time or another in my career, I've used all that are listed. Some more briefly than others, but long enough to get an understanding of their capabilities.

In my opinion, no form of radiography will ever be the equal to ultrasonic testing overall. It all comes down to flaw/energy orientation and lack of, presences of, or change of material. this will not change until a means of capturing reflection, refraction, diffraction, rarefraction within the material can be found for gamma or x ray energys.

My opinion for what it's worth,
Gerald
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 12-05-2007 07:40
Gerald,

that was one explanation!

Outstandingly...

I mean to have understood that CIT uses the first variant you have explained, since they are taking the shot first and then the "film" is being transported into a kind of a chamber where the evaluation of the results is being carried out by using the appropriate CIT software.

As well as what you have explained with respect to the adjustments of specific areas to be investigated a bit more in detail. This has been presented to us at the meeting in the Cranfield Welding Engineering Research Centre. Really amazing what they are able to do with this (can remember there was e.g. a function of a digital "magnifying glass"). What SOOD has likewise described was, what you have mentioned in terms of the higher resolution. He said that the substance (phosphor coating?) has a specific and high sensitivity against gamma-radiation beginning at 12µm in dimension. This is - in combination with the scanning sensitivity - the reason for the higher sensitivity over all compared with AUT.

SOOD's hope and perspective is it of course that digital radiography is going to change the ratio between AUT and Radiography as NDT processes in the future, which has been fixed meanwhile definitely on the AUT side.

A good argument for me as a layman is the "visualizing" of flaws when using the radiography method. I can see there is a flaw by having a "picture" of what I'm seeing. Although the interpretation of the specific flaw is another issue and must be carried out by an expert of course, I can nonetheless "see" that there is a flaw, even as well as an NDT layman.

In case of "UT" I am sure I could interpret all and nothing by never having had the chance to see the very specific differences between the single kinds of different flaws or in other words, never having had the chance to see how a "pore" should be distinguished from a "lack of fusion".

I mean "UT" is a very special procedure and requires a lot of experience to interpret the results in a proper and adequate way. So does certainly radiography, but as I said, I guess UT is by an order more difficult.

However, all in all very very interesting what you are doing in NDT and thanks a lot for your - once again - great explanations!

Best regards,
Stephan

@hogan: Thanks for the hint hogan. I promise to have a look upon the method you have mentioned!
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-05-2007 17:23 Edited 12-05-2007 17:25
"the reason for the higher sensitivity over all compared with AUT. "

Stephan.. I would be very interested in reading the gentlemen's explanation in detail in regards to how how he figures CR is more sensitive than AUT. Especially for PAUT. (phased array automated UT)

There is a contingent of old school NDE types out there that are dead set on regaining RT dominance. However; that horse is out of the gate long ago never to return.
RT has come a very long way compared to old school methods, but it has some specific limitations.

I've had the good fortune to take part in some trials between phased array and CR. The result of which left me with a less than comfortable feeling in regards to RT.

Having said that, I see both staying around but RT in a limited role. The cost of doing both on a given project usually is the limiting factor, however; if you had a super critical
project, that would be your best method.

RT's primary limitation is in it's ability to pick up planar flaws. (cracks, lack of fusion)
UT's primary limitation is in it's ability to pick up volumous flaws. (slag, porosity, Tungsten inclusions etc)

Using porosity as an example for comparison: A pore will have a specific volume of missing material, this is an ideal flaw type for RT
Whereas a pore is typically at least a partial or wholey ominidirectional reflector in regards to UT. For UT the energy impinges on the pore and is reflected back to it's point of origin by only a small portion of the flaw as the rest is either refracted, diffracted, mode converted, or otherwise sent away from the receptor.
It should be noted that AUT can pick up on those otherwise lost waves and waveforms and be reasonably assessed due to using multiple channels/transducers/elements and the ability to tie those together in a coherent imaging process. (such as an Sectorial scan for PAUT, or phased array)

Using a planar defect such as a lack of fusion for comparison: This is the ideal flaw type for UT.
Where a planar is typically very tight in regards to it's width leaving a very small volume of actual missing material, which leaves very little change in material for the RT to pick up on. Even in that, the volume missing can be missed all together by RT depending on the flaw orientation, whereas UT, phased array in particular would be ideal to find this flaw type, as the angle of incidence can be dialed in and in the case of phased array, ranged in.

As for presentation, Old school UT was A scan (time distance trace), B scan was a side view cross section, and C scan was a top down view cross section. The current state of UT presentation is only limited by computer processing speed, which in todays world is several orders faster than when I began in the 80's.

Another factor involved would be the security and safety. This is the achilles heel of radiography. No matter what methods of presentations, accuracy, etc that you can come up with, it still requires a source of radiation. Unlike the world of yesterday when people weren't flying planes into buildings, today the risk benifit must be evaluated in regards to keeping these sources around. The more security the various nations of the world, the IAEA, and other authorities impose upon companies utilizing radiographic sources, the more expensive it will be to perform. Economics alone will start and has started in a lot of places, the move to something that does not require the sources.
I believe it will be this factor that ensures the dominance of UT as it can do all the above, but without the ionizing source.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 12-06-2007 18:02
Gerald,

I thought your first response on that would never be possible to be exceeded.

What a misbelief, you have proven that I was wrong...

Thanks again for these very clear, structured and impressive explanations.

I mean to having understood now what the reasons are for the meanwhile to observe "imbalance" between (P)AUT and CR.

Thanks also for the detailed descriptions in terms of "ideal" flaws for the particular NDT methods.

Even as well the security and safety issues are - as you have explained - quite plausible.

Hmmm, so far I guess that - probably - the ratio in utilization between CIT or better CR and AUT might not drastically be changed in the future... probably.

Gerald, as soon as I will receive the presentation I will try to pass it along to you.

I guess there are some very interesting aspects or information respectively, contained for you - you "NDT Bodhisattva"! :-)

Thanks again for taking your precious time to reply...

Best regards,
Stephan

Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-07-2007 09:19
I rather enjoyed reading this one myself!!  Very good posts I learned  some things.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 12-07-2007 12:31
Sir Yes Sir!

So did I...

By the way, not that anyone might think that "Bodhisattva" would mean somewhat bad.

Far from it!

It means nothing less than "enlightened"*! ;-)

Best,
Stephan

* To my best knowledge!
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-07-2007 17:56
I had to look that one up Stephan. I don't know about enlightened, except maybe when I still cranked shots.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 12-08-2007 11:25
Gerald!

And now I finally do have to look that one up...

Please don't understate!

I have seen another fellow has several times used the following signature:

"I saw the light and it burns!" (Quote Homer Simpson)

I hope he permits to use it for saying:

"I saw the light and it's Gerald!" :-):-):-)

Best,
Stephan
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