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- - By scrappywelds (***) Date 12-08-2007 02:27
If you are having trouble with porosity on a carbon steel welds, add a little 309L to it. As long as it isn't the root or the cap most x-ray guys can't tell the difference in the density. I'm telling ya it works.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-08-2007 02:42
Hello scrappywelds, did you really just make that suggestion? On some little "no matter" item that might be acceptable, but in the real world that sort of thing could cause some real issues and or problems and set you up to be the fall guy if they could trace it back to you. I do know exactly what you are saying and have used that trick to get rid of porosity on carbon steel welds, but definitely not on anything that had the slightest inkling of pressure, fluids, or anything else that could matter. Whenever you start referring to being able to fool X-ray techs that tends to indicate that these welds do matter. That is not an area I would want to tread into. Just my $.02. Regards, aevald
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 12-08-2007 05:45
This one belongs in the "Farm Code"
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 12-08-2007 06:29
think the name of the poster speaks for itself!
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 12-08-2007 20:35
[deleted]
Parent - - By TozziWelding (**) Date 12-09-2007 00:54
If you need to know that trick, you shouldn't be on an X-ray job.
Parent - - By spgtti (**) Date 12-09-2007 03:07
Hmm, seems like everyone here lives in a utopian vacuum. Must be nice making every weld on clean new pipe and tubes which have been placed in the optimum position for yet another of your textbook perfect welds. Crawl in a 50 year old boiler with 1500 welds 3 deep and an inch off the floor and pull your prima donna card then. If you can't make the shots on rotten tubes you can pull out the bag of tricks or go home but no one cares if you complain.
Parent - - By RANDER (***) Date 12-09-2007 05:34
Its not really about being in a perfect world.  There are welders and there are welding engineers.  If a welder is running into repetitive problems they should bring it to the appropriate personnel for review and guidance on repair or solutions to the problem. Maybe you get paid more than the engineers and maybe you don't however I for one don't get paid enough to step into those shoes and so I don't.  Even If I do make more $. 
Parent - - By spgtti (**) Date 12-09-2007 17:52
The utility knows the boilers are worn out, the contractor and Q.C.'s know that the base metal is boiling porosity into the new weld metal and still the shots are made. You can inform anyone you want to but if you can't make the shot you'll be whining at the house. Thats the real world sorry if you don't like it.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-15-2008 19:24
If you cant make the shot the right way, you should be whining at the house.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 12-09-2007 05:45
And i bet when one of those pipes explodes and kills a few people your laughing about it with your buddies while drinking a beer and not giving a shit about all the lives affected!
Parent - - By scrappywelds (***) Date 12-09-2007 17:38
you can tell there are some peolpe that have never been in a boiler, fab shop welders don't know what they are talking about. This trick is what we call  "the Magic Wire" , tube and pipe welders in the field have been doing it for years. Its is 309L after all!!! Mean't to be welded to carbon steel. I'm not a metalurgist, but from what I have seen stainless steel is better than carbon steel in the wear department. Not to mention its in the middle of the weld. I have been doing boiler tube leak repairs for years and this will hold for years. See what you come up with when you have water and air leaking out of a crack you want to repair. When you are using 2 mirrors and arm lenght deep in the economizer. Next you will tell me a little XX18 downhill welding is bad too. I guess all those old timer tube welders didn't know what they were doing with those 50 year old pad welds.
Parent - By scrappywelds (***) Date 12-09-2007 17:41
Oh yeah i forgot, it was an inspector that put me onto " the magic wire".
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-15-2008 23:44
"its 309L after all" he says!! Does the procedure you tested to cover it after all? I ask?? Gauranteed NOT!!!
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-15-2008 19:23
I have been there and done that and I will stick by my statement of " if you need to utilize a trick like this you are not a welder, you are just somebody who can srike an arc!"
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-15-2008 23:41
SO TRUE / Also known as FFS- Fixing farmers sh**.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-02-2008 15:28
was reading through this thread and found this one. FFE needs to find it's way into FC 3.0 definitions.
Parent - - By shorthood2006 (****) Date 12-09-2007 17:53
l well i am the dumb one! what is 309L?
Parent - - By scrappywelds (***) Date 12-09-2007 21:23 Edited 12-09-2007 21:46
309L is a stainless to carbon rod. I never whine I'm the one that tells people to get out of my way I'll get it done. You can take it store it in the back of your mind for future "what do I do now", or leave it. The point is it works. I guess in the begining I should have said to grind out the porosity, weld the 309L where the porosity kept reoccuring, then go back to what ever filler metal you are using.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-09-2007 22:13 Edited 12-09-2007 23:36
This  *Magic* technique reminds me of what some old hands in the aerospace industry used to do.

Titanium field repair welds have strict visual inspection criteria that includes the absence of colored oxides on finised welds... Finished welds that show signs of brushing to remove oxides are cause for rejection.

The *experienced* hands would from time to time have color on the tops of their welds and simply turn the amperage down to about 15, put on a 0.040 tungsten and strike an arc that did not melt the previous weld but would *magically* make the colored oxide disappear...

This kind of Hack mentality is an embarrassment and worse a danger........ It works only because it makes *your* problem go away..... Once your gone you have no clue if what you have done is acceptable or not in the long run.

Claiming that only people who have "suffered" in the pits you have are wise enough to talk about how to cheat at work is just  plain stupid....  You are wrong if you go outside of qualified procedures.

If using 309 is common practice and ok in the long run than there would be qualified procedures for repair stating just that...  Until there is you are a hack, a cheater and worthy of being fired.  Every bit of your past work stinks of slop, done by a man who obviously does not have even the basic ethical compass to tell right from wrong.

You say your not a mettalurgist or an inpsector... Well no mettalurgist would agree with you until what you claim is proven by testing... And I am an inspector and test examiner, I've been a manager and a welder of both important and unimportant componants.... And my style of "gettin er done" is to fire the likes of you.
Parent - By banshee35 (**) Date 12-10-2007 00:15
well said
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 12-10-2007 01:19
Well said Lawrence.
And as an inspector, when someone tries to pull one over on me, all it does is make me watch them more closely,
and that makes my job harder, so its best to weed them out sooner rather than later!
Parent - - By RANDER (***) Date 12-10-2007 02:02
If one has to cheat to play the game, One isnt worthy of being in the game.  Stay Home already
Parent - - By mody454 (**) Date 12-10-2007 02:49
so im new to this if this was a problem what would be the correct procedure to correct the porosity   grinding out?  and what is the problem that you have 2 diffrent metels that will not bond corectly?  or is it just a fact that its a quick way out from actualy doing a good job??  sorry guys just pickin some brains here  great place to learn
Parent - - By spgtti (**) Date 12-10-2007 03:18
If porosity continually shows up in carbon weld metal after several attempts at grinding it out its generally garbage being pulled out of the base metal. This would be a rejectable defect. 309L wire is used to join dissimilar metal (carbon-stainless mostly). This is not an easy way out of doing a good job. This is a COMMONLY used way to prevent porosity from continuing throughout the weld when joining old boiler tube and pipe back together if it is a recurring issue. I don't believe any of the people responding to this post have much if any experience with heavilly heat cycled power piping. Would Kahunna walk off a job if there was diesel pouring out of a heavily magnetized line tie-in? Probably why he became an inspector, most of them can only preach the code, its a different world outside the books.
Parent - By mody454 (**) Date 12-10-2007 12:49
ive been in construction for a long time and i do know that engineers and archatects can be a pain sometimes  because something might look good or work on paper but it doesnt always mean the same in the field maybe welders run into this problem too
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 12-10-2007 18:13
I've been there in ships' boilers.  Yes, that tubing gets old.  Sometimes there is water still in the tube while you're trying to work on it.  That's when we stop, tell the operators to get it dry.  Clean everything, do the job right.  When NDT comes to shoot, I know it's right.  Your 309L method sounds like a setup for cracking, especially when you're talking about the extreme temperature and pressure differentials involved.  Not to mention the various feedwater chemistry combinations, and what effect that might all have on the differences in the weld filler.  In my experience, if you get it dry and cleaned to sound metal you don't get porosity, unless you're welding with old, damaged, or wet rod.  Now, commercial power plants might have different rules, but in my mind steam is steam, hot is hot and the laws of physics say that different metals expand at different rates.  In short, I wouldn't do what you say you do unless I had a sign off from an engineer and QC.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 12-10-2007 18:25
doing something f-ed up for twenty years makes you a f-up with twenty years experience
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-15-2008 20:47
AMEN Brother!!!
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 12-10-2007 19:05
[deleted]
Parent - By Tom11980 (*) Date 03-01-2008 14:07 Edited 03-01-2008 14:11
Amen I have done the same and been in a much similar curcumstance except for scorched lungs because I wanted to be the man to get er done.  I have never and will never endanger myself for a job again if it is too dangerous and I do not feel safe I just drag up.  Sure it may cost me some money and my pride but I get to go home to my beautiful family.  To anyone just starting out and does not know the dangers of welding, rig work, shops ect.  follow your gut if it does not feel safe or the right thing to do do not do it.  As we all have seen I am sure fingers, hands, eyes, legs, ect.  can be lost in seconds due to short cuts and that get-er-done attitude. Sure it will get the job done but at what cost. 
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-17-2008 06:28
Lawrence, these people defending this practice can not be reached. Thank GOD for people like us in positions like ours. Somebody has to keep the monkeys in thier cages!!
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 07-02-2008 13:57
"Some people just cannot be reached, no matter how earnest our efforts" (Clarance Sweeny, Asst F&B Director, Circus Circus Hotel/Casino, LV NV.) :-) S.W.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-15-2008 19:28
That is still crap if your procedure does not allow it, and you do not have approval from EOR!!
Parent - By cmays (***) Date 02-17-2008 17:12
I was on a job once where I saw a guy rub a lead pencil in the undercut on his cap pass. I asked him what the he... he was doing! He claimed it would fool the cancer box from picking it up. What an idiot. This was on 6 ich sch 160 low high all the way out (sour gas lines). Needless to say he wasnt on the job much longer after that. And guess who had to go back and do repairs. Anyway this thread brought that memory back so I thought I'd share with you all.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-10-2007 20:34
This thread is scary....
Parent - - By tab_1999 (**) Date 12-11-2007 12:56
I have to agree with you John,

I know this goes on and have seen it done when I was learning to weld, "in another life" in Boiler house economizers etc.. As the years went by and I was exposed to Professional Engineers and Inspectors as well as concerned Clients of these "money jobs" in pre and post shutdown atmospheres, I started understanding the failure modes and the necessity of craft training in an effort to increase the much needed communication when issues arise. Including discontinuities that seem un-repairable.
Communication provides the Client and Engineering the opportunity to more effectively plan future outages and tube, waterwall replacements rather that constantly replacing the pups, pad welding or just temporary patches in general.
It is my observation that most of the "instigation" stems from the other welders that do anything to get done. Most welders do it to avoid being teased by the other/older welders as someone that cant take the heat so, should get out of the kitchen.
Historically, the best way to get continued work for your organization is to provide the client and your piers all the best information you can. This includes welding issues which will again, let the client plan for more effective Future rework, outages and new projects. 
p.s. Another example why smaller clients are replacing the older boilers with new package boilers built somewhere else!

Just some food for thought.
There is no short-cut to anyplace WORTH going!
Tom
Parent - - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 12-11-2007 13:59
This is truly scary!!

It's the 2 bit hacks like this that keep us working.  I have a big problem with scrappy suggesting that inspectors can't hack it in the trade.  I have an AS in Welding Technology, BS in Welding Engineering, AWS CWI, and AWS CWE, and yet I weld everyday.  I don't inspect my own work, and I don't qualify myself, just to keep the "conflict of interest" out of the equation.  I have my own fab shop and rig, and I spend 20% of my time fixing crap that was hacked together by these guys with 50 years of experience and the "magic" way of fixing things.  The only reason that you have not seen your work fail is because the company you work for calls people like me to fix it right the next time.  You guys are like the snake oil salesmen, push your "magic" dust and get the hell out of dodge before anyone knows its crap.  Codes and standards are out there because people have been injured and killed by others doing things wrong.  If something is determined to be unfit for repair, we decline the work, and then 2 bit hacks like you can come in and fix it on their liability.  That's ok with me!!  Even if you have done it without failure 1000 times, that 1 time it does fail and someone gets hurt, you're out of business, and your assets are tied up in court for years.  Again, that's ok with me.  Maybe it will not be someone your close to that gets hurt, but maybe the hack that welded the trailer hitch on the truck hauling that boat in front of your suv thought it was ok to use 309L, heck it's made to join steel..right???
Parent - - By Goose-em (**) Date 12-12-2007 13:50
Right on MDG!

As a CWI I am lucky enogh to get to inspect a part that the welders like to call the "hot box"!  This little dandy of a part is sixteen inches deep with just enough room to get your head into.  It can be welded in position until other parts are added to it.  ONe day a welder thought he would pull one over on me and leave porosity, overlap and other fancy welding crap up inside the hot box.  He actually thought, because it is a pain in the rear to get to, that I wouldn't inspect up in there.  Two days later he emerged a different man after he spent those two days gouging out about 16 feet of weld, two hot boxes, with his head up in that little hole and slag pouring all over his poor little brain.

Today I still inspect those hotboxes but I never find a single defect in there!
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-15-2008 23:38
Good Job!! When they want to play games HAMMER THAT A**!!!
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-15-2008 19:18
I am an AWS CWI as well as a longtime welder in many processes. I have heard of this and seen it and I will tell you from first hand experiance that the only welders that need to use this "trick" are welders who CANT WELD!! You should be ashamed to admit that you even need to do this. Second: As an inspector, and I have done this, if I catch someone doing this in a x-ray siuation I will tag your weld and when it is proven that you have not followed and also willfully disregarded your procedure this will lead to 100% cut out of your welds and YOUR TERMINATION! The name "scrappywelds" says it all!! You should stick to welding cattle gates and feeders, because if our paths cross in a refinery or power plant environment you will be HISTORY on that job!! How embarassing!!
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-15-2008 23:31
scrappywelder, be forewarned, if you come to the table in this industry trying to play games or pull tricks, there are people like me that will expose you for what you truly are. I believe this has been accomplished due to the fact that you have not responded to any of the valid and on track responses to your "trick" with anything but sorry excuses, that is not only immmoral, but degrading to welders who take pride in thier work. You have hit a nerve in many a good welder as well as good welders turned inspectors. 
Parent - - By chrisodom980 (*) Date 02-16-2008 21:54
ok maybe i am misunderstanding this here , If a QC and the customer saids it is ok to weld a tube that u have been having poristy in with 309 that makes it ok, but if u get ahead of them and do it yourself (not just trying to pass a xray) but thinking that would fix the problem that is wrong. Anwser that. On a personal note i have never done anything of this sort just to pass a test or xray or just caused it would work, if a QC or supervisor didnt tell me to do it, i dont do it.I still belive in asking before u do, cause if what they tell u to do makes more work in the long run hay u have just made that much more money. and thats what all this is about anyway isnt it!
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-16-2008 22:23
Yes, that is the wrong thing to do. If you were told to do this by QC, Contractor, engineering and or customer there would have to be a QUALIFIED PROCEDURE that would allow the process that we are discussing. So even if you felt like you were not doing anything immoral or just plain cheap, just simply trying to help solve a problem, it is still WRONG. You can dip a turd in chocolate as many times as you want to, but when you take a bite, it is still a turd.
Parent - - By chrisodom980 (*) Date 02-17-2008 01:38
what i am trying to say if there is know code or procedure but qc engineering get together and scratch their heads for a little while and say yea use a 309 rod on it and see if that works. Does that make it right. what would be the difference from the a welder making a judgement call.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-17-2008 05:58
In the situation that we are discussing, NOBODY is going to "scratch their heads" to make this call. You are starting to sound as rediculous as scrappy. CUT AND DRY-follow the written and qualified procedure that you have tested to and if you can not, GO HOME!!! Stop the lame excuses and be a real welder or get out of the way of the real welders. For you to even ask these questions it makes it obvious to those of us who Know what we are doing that you do not!!!! Disregard and disrespect AWS and what it and we stand for somewhere other than this forum. You are only exposing yourself for what you truly are. BULLSH**TERS
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-17-2008 06:15
Sorry to be so blunt, but this subject is cut and dry. The "trick" we are discussing is just that, a "TRICK" that will get someone hurt and cost untold amounts of money if and when it fails. There are qualified procedures in place, and options to qualify procedures to solve issues like this. As a welder, if you or any other welder out there thinks that you are more knowlegable or better educated than AWS and its board members, and everyone that that is involved in the advancement and evolvment of metal joining, then write your own code and try to sell it. Until then, Weld to the procedure you have tested to or STAY AT THE HOUSE AND WHINE ABOUT THE INSPECTORS THAT BUST YOUR A** FOR BIENG A HALF A**ED WELDER. I am done with this discussion because it is like trying to shove a marshmellow into a piggybank when you try to reason with someone who THINKS they can weld.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-17-2008 06:22
Do you ever wonder why people like scrappy have no profile? It is because they do not want anyone to know who they are! If I was like that, I wouldn't either! Stand tall, be proud or stay at the house with mama!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-17-2008 06:46
Chris: This thread is dealing with power plant boiler tubes and other highly critical welds. Anyting that is done in this area has been fully engineered and proven effective. Nobody has the authority to make a "judgement call" with this sort of work, and if You asked anyone who told You to do one of these unorthodox procedures to "put it in wrighting" they would not.
Parent - - By spgtti (**) Date 02-17-2008 22:57
      Hmmm, this has been an interesting thread and caused me to re-evaluate my stance on this practice. After seeing some of the initial responses to this "trick" I did an informal survey of the welders I have worked with past and present (boilermaker & pipefitter). ALL have been in this situatation when working with old tubes/pipe after remachineing. Out of 17 responses only 1 said they wouldn't/haven't used this repair. All are top manual/automatic welders. The QA/QC people I work around all know and have seen this done in the field with and w/o supporting documentation. The final straw was when I spoke with an Ohio State welding engineer who works for a large east coast nuclear/fossil power generating co. He had been a boilermaker in while in school and said that they had done this many times themselves. No this doesn't make it right but does add validity to the over 65 309L dm PQR's I've seen where I work. To the shop welders and QC gurus who reponded so negatively to this thread, I'm sorry that you feel that smart ass responses and holier than thou attitude on a message board is the only outlet you have to vent your frustrations. Its not my job to make a call as to what to is the proper filler material to put in a joint but MANY times plant personnel and contractor QC leave it to the welders to select rod (laziness?). Considering the condition of the many coal fired units I've worked in, lack of maintenance and engineering interest show (and help me earn a good living).
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